Pictures of Two Comings

[Trekson]

Picture of Two Comings

I believe the bible describes two aspects of His 2nd advent. One for the rapture and the next, His actual physical advent. The key phrase is the Acts 1:11 verse is “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

As Christ ascends up with the clouds so shall His return for the rapture be and that is when 1 Co. 15:51-54 kicks in: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” and we shall meet Him in the air and go to heaven.

Some folks don’t believe that the Christians will ever leave earth but that’s not what this verse implies, John 14:2-3 - “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Where did Christ go? To heaven, where He is preparing a place for us there, not here.

So where is the picture of phase 2 of His second coming, where He sets foot upon the earth? Rev. 19:11-16 - “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.”

This is the picture of Christ coming back for Armageddon. Read the description. It is not the “in like manner” as described in Acts 1:11. I think this plainly paints a picture of the dual aspects of His second coming. Thus, imo, every other depiction of His coming in the NT is speaking of the rapture except 2 Thess. 1:7-8 and Rev. 19 is the only NT scriptures that describes His physical 2nd coming. Why is it in two phases? Simple, the rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel!

 

[Douggg]

Simple, the rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel!

Well certainly the resurrection/rapture is for believers in Jesus.




Jesus's second coming will be to rescue Israel. And to execute judgment on them gathered at Armageddon gathered to make war on Him and His army of heaven.

 

[jeffweeder]

Picture of Two Comings

I believe the bible describes two aspects of His 2nd advent. One for the rapture and the next, His actual physical advent. The key phrase is the Acts 1:11 verse is “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Not at all.
Paul is very clear when he teaches the Lord with appear to Glorify his church on the same day he comes in vengeance to eternally judge those who rejected his Gospel of salvation.
There are several of our Lords verses that allude to that very fact.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives]. 11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

​

 

[Trekson]

Not at all.
Paul is very clear when he teaches the Lord with appear to Glorify his church on the same day he comes in vengeance to eternally judge those who rejected his Gospel of salvation.
There are several of our Lords verses that allude to that very fact.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives]. 11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

​

Thank you, I added 2 Thess. to Rev. 19 as a scrip depicting Christ's 2nd coming. It seems for some reason, I always skip to cp. 2. Do you have another NT one?

 

[HealthyShape]

I think the concept of two comings is an interesting idea, while not stated explicitly in the Scriptures or in the Church creeds.

One reason why I find it plausible: The New Testament predicted a soon return of Jesus in judgement over Israel and for His first ekklesia. This judgement obviously happened in the 70 AD. But the ecumenical Church creeds still confess another future coming.

 

[Trekson]

Well certainly the resurrection/rapture is for believers in Jesus.

View attachment 80917


Jesus's second coming will be to rescue Israel. And to execute judgment on them gathered at Armageddon gathered to make war on Him and His army of heaven.

That is the typical pretrib timeline which I believe to be in error. They aren't gathered to make war on Christ because they don't know or believe he is coming again. They are gathered to make war against Israel, the antichrist and Jerusalem, the headquarters of the a/c and his 10 nation confederacy. The nations are getting sick of his rule and want to put a stop to it. Then, when they "all" see Christ coming, they unite w/ the a/c to fight against Him and the angels.

 

[Rockerduck]

I believe Jesus is coming back and at the same time, destroys the earth and creates a new heaven and new earth. I base that on 2 Thess. 1:7 and 2 Peter 3: 10 and Rev. 21:1

 

[rwb]

I think the concept of two comings is an interesting idea, while not stated explicitly in the Scriptures or in the Church creeds.

One reason why I find it plausible: The New Testament predicted a soon return of Jesus in judgement over Israel and for His first ekklesia. This judgement obviously happened in the 70 AD. But the ecumenical Church creeds still confess another future coming.

I believe where the New Testament speaks of His soon, near, quickly coming was not pointing to His second coming in flesh as He was seen when He ascended to heaven, nor is it pointing to 70 AD. Rather, I believe it speaks of Him coming through His Spirit that He would send for all who would be born again as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed.

John 14:16-20 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[rwb]

I believe the bible describes two aspects of His 2nd advent. One for the rapture and the next, His actual physical advent. The key phrase is the Acts 1:11 verse is “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Not two aspects of His Second Advent when He shall return again in flesh. But two comings in the sense that His first coming was physical, but now in this age while the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached that the Kingdom of God in heaven (a spiritual habitation) shall be complete, Christ, through His Spirit in us, has spiritually come again to whosoever has been born again. That's why Christ tells us to both know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God we must be born again of His Spirit.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

When man has been born again, Christ, through His Spirit has come again, and we have His promise that when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, He will physically return a second time to gather together all who have been born again of His Spirit.

 

[Douggg]

They aren't gathered to make war on Christ because they don't know or believe he is coming again.

What does verse 19 say ?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Douggg]

. They are gathered to make war against Israel, the antichrist and Jerusalem, the headquarters of the a/c and his 10 nation confederacy. The nations are getting sick of his rule and want to put a stop to it.

Not against Israel, but the beast who will be occupying Israel. The reason for attacking the beast will likely because near the end of the 7 years, the beast will be funneling all the mideast oil to the EU and its western allies.

It will be a a pre-Armageddon event. Armageddon itself will be to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.



Suddenly, the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, and the fighting stop. And in light of the bigger threat, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon, inspired by the beast, the false prophet, and Satan to do so, Revelation 16:13-16. They gather together to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven, Revelation 19:19.



The beast will then make his final stand on the mount of Olives and meet his end of being cast allve into the lake of fire.

 

[Zao is life]

Picture of Two Comings

I believe the bible describes two aspects of His 2nd advent. One for the rapture and the next, His actual physical advent. The key phrase is the Acts 1:11 verse is “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

I don't know what you understand by the word "rapture" but IMO you are correct about the rest - and you will find many here who agree with you.

1. Jesus did not tell us that He will return to gather His elect by returning to the earth:

"They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:30b-31).

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (I Thessalonians 4:16-18 [RLT])

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7).

You have not yet understood what this verse below implies:

John 14:2-3 - “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Where did Christ go? To heaven, where He is preparing a place for us there, not here.

You have misunderstood what Jesus was saying because you did not hear the rest of what He said at that very same time

- but no need to be embarrassed - just as we are all novice disciples, not hearing ALL He said, even the apostles were novice disciples at the time, not always hearing ALL He said:

John 13
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Still speaking in the same context, we read in John 14:4 that Jesus also said,

"And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Jesus had already told them that wither He goes, they cannot come. Now He tells them that they nevertheless know where He is going, and the way to where He is going - and because it was before He had died, risen again, and before the Holy Spirit had come to the house of God, His disciples were still confused:

"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" (John 14:5).

Compare:

(a) As I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

(b) Whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

(c) Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

To Thomas's question, Jesus replied:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

Keep comparing the verses, because further on down in the passage - and still in the same context of speaking to His disciples about His departure - Jesus tells those who believe in Him and belong to Him:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Take a look at the Greek word used in John 14:2, because the same word is used again further on down in the same passage - but has been translated using a different English word:

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions [G3438 mone]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

G3438: mone. from 3306; a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place):--abode, mansion.

G3306: meno: a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

John 14
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live [zao], ye shall live [zao] also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode [G3438 mone] with him.

G3438: mone. from 3306; a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place):--abode, mansion.

G3306: meno: a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

What Jesus was telling them was that THEY were to become His Father's house (in which there are many mansions) - because HE was going to be sending the Holy Spirit down on God's house - and it happened on the Day of Pentecost.

What Jesus had already said was:

"In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

"As I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you."

"And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode [G3438 mone] with him.

Jesus is talking about the Temple (house) of God which Christ inhabits, by His Spirit:

As Paul tells those who BELIEVE Jesus and His words: each one who has the Spirit of Christ dwelling in Him is the Temple (house) of God (Ephesians 2:19-22); and Peter tells us that together we are the living stones who form the one Temple of God (1 Peter 2:5).

Indeed there are many mansions in the house of God, and there is room for each one who believes in Jesus and His gospel

- and in His Revelation Jesus allowed His apostle John to see what will also be - in a fuller and complete sense following the (bodily) return of Christ and the (bodily) resurrection of the dead in Christ:

"And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God." (Revelation 21:3).

I will get to the rest of your post in my next post - because there you have made a wrong assumption too - not hearing all the words of scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.”

This is the picture of Christ coming back for Armageddon.

Yes.

He will have appeared in the clouds, and the elect dead will be raised, and the rest who are still alive will be raptured - as Paul stated.
(In Revelation 19 they are the saints who are coming down with Him - His army in white garments - for the battle of Armageddon).

- but did you not HEAR the rest of what Jesus said?

Apparently you did not.

He said,

"The seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev 16:17; Rev21:6-7).

If you have a thousand years in between the return of Christ and the new heavens and new earth added to scripture, you are not going to hear what scripture is saying - and you are not going to understand why the bride of Christ is mentioned as the army coming down with Christ in Revelation 19 and she is mentioned again in Revelation 21 - each time as having been prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If you have a thousand years in between the return of Christ and the new heavens and new earth added to scripture, it means that for now, in this present time, you cannot hear ALL the words of scripture (for example the words of Jesus when He says):

"It is done!"

 

[Marty fox]

Thank you, I added 2 Thess. to Rev. 19 as a scrip depicting Christ's 2nd coming. It seems for some reason, I always skip to cp. 2. Do you have another NT one?

The problem in all of this is that a lot of Christians believe that revelation chapter 19 is the second coming and it’s not. This chapter only shows what Jesus is doing up in heaven there is no mention of Jesus coming to the earth

 

[Marty fox]

Not at all.
Paul is very clear when he teaches the Lord with appear to Glorify his church on the same day he comes in vengeance to eternally judge those who rejected his Gospel of salvation.
There are several of our Lords verses that allude to that very fact.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives]. 11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

​

Yes amen only one future second advent

Great to hear from you again Jeff

 

[Marty fox]

Yes.

He will have appeared in the clouds, and the elect dead will be raised, and the rest who are still alive will be raptured - as Paul stated.
(In Revelation 19 they are the saints who are coming down with Him - His army in white garments - for the battle of Armageddon).

- but did you not HEAR the rest of what Jesus said?

Apparently you did not.

He said,

"The seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev 16:17; Rev21:6-7).

If you have a thousand years in between the return of Christ and the new heavens and new earth added to scripture, you are not going to hear what scripture is saying - and you are not going to understand why the bride of Christ is mentioned as the army coming down with Christ in Revelation 19 and she is mentioned again in Revelation 21 - each time as having been prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If you have a thousand years in between the return of Christ and the new heavens and new earth added to scripture, it means that for now, in this present time, you cannot hear ALL the words of scripture (for example the words of Jesus when He says):

"It is done!"

Except that revelation 19 doesn’t mention the saints coming down with Jesus it does even mention Jesus coming down

 

[Trekson]

Not two aspects of His Second Advent when He shall return again in flesh. But two comings in the sense that His first coming was physical, but now in this age while the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached that the Kingdom of God in heaven (a spiritual habitation) shall be complete, Christ, through His Spirit in us, has spiritually come again to whosoever has been born again. That's why Christ tells us to both know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God we must be born again of His Spirit.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

When man has been born again, Christ, through His Spirit has come again, and we have His promise that when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, He will physically return a second time to gather together all who have been born again of His Spirit.The spiritual doesn't eliminate the future physical reality. There is just too much prophesy about it to ignore,.

 

[Trekson]

The spiritual doesn't eliminate the future physical reality. There is just too much prophesy about it to ignore.

 

[Trekson]

What does verse 19 say ?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Yes, that is the reality, but the armies of earth don't know that. They think they are gathering on their own for a different reason.

 

[Trekson]

Not against Israel, but the beast who will be occupying Israel. The reason for attacking the beast will likely because near the end of the 7 years, the beast will be funneling all the mideast oil to the EU and its western allies.

It will be a a pre-Armageddon event. Armageddon itself will be to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

View attachment 80940

Suddenly, the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, and the fighting stop. And in light of the bigger threat, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon, inspired by the beast, the false prophet, and Satan to do so, Revelation 16:13-16. They gather together to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven, Revelation 19:19.

View attachment 80941

The beast will then make his final stand on the mount of Olives and meet his end of being cast allve into the lake of fire.

View attachment 80942

You have your way of looking at it and I have mine. The three frogs are different demonic spirits then the three you mentioned.