Pictures of Two Comings

[Marty fox]

That is not true, plus the 6th vial is why the armies gather there and only armies not every person on the planet as you imply.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

 

[jeffweeder]

Thank you, I added 2 Thess. to Rev. 19 as a scrip depicting Christ's 2nd coming. It seems for some reason, I always skip to cp. 2.

Sorry, I don't understand what that means.

Do you disagree that the Lord first and foremost, is coming a second time to take complete vengeance on those who have rejected the Gospel?


2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


The lord at a particular time in the future will raise all those in the grave.
Some will rise to glory and some to everlasting contempt.

Jn 5
27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].
28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].


This is consistent with 2Thess 1 and many other scriptures of Jesus own word regarding his own coming a second time.

What do you disagree with regarding these scriptures?

 

[Zao is life]

Rev. 16:17 "It is done" is speaking only about God's wrath contained in the vials, see vs. 1. This does "not" connect w/ Rev. 21:6-7 in any way. Scripture never actually calls the 'church" the bride of Christ, but that's a whole 'nother topic. BTW, What is the metaphor of the bride called? What does the church have in common w/ something called the NJ?

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:19-24).

THREE GROUPS OF HUMANS WHO CAME FROM OUT OF THE ABRAHAMIC FAITH OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB (which Muslims do not believe in)

1. The tiny remainder of the Samaritans who still live in "The West Bank" today. They are a mixed breed descended from (a) the remnant of Israelites whom the king of Assyria left in the land after exiling the rest, and (b) Gentiles whom the king resettled among them, in Samaria.

They still worship on the same mountain, Mt. Gerizim.

They believe the Word of God - but only the part they are prepared to believe, which is the Torah - the five books of Moses - but the prophets and all the other Jewish books they do not believe.

Why?

It's because according to the prophets they (the ten northern tribes of Israel, collectively called "Ephraim" in scripture) ceased being a nation before God at the time of the exile brought about by the king of Assyria (Isaiah 7:8).

So they take away from the Word of God because they only believe the parts of the Word of God that they are prepared to believe.

Therefore they do not understand how their eventual restoration to God has been made possible in Christ (Hosea 1:9-11; Romans 9:25-26).

2. Later in terms of being cut off from being a people before God, they were joined (at the time of Christ) by those who took Christ's New Covenant away from the Word of God, being prepared to believe only the part of the Word of God they had chosen to believe.

3. Still later, they have been joined by two groups of people:

(a) Those who take away from the Word of God the parts of the Word of God that they are not prepared to believe (Preterism, for example); and

(b) Those who add their own meanings to the Word of God that are not there, twisting scripture in their futile attempts to get scripture to conform or comply with the things they WANT to believe scripture is saying.

Both of the above two groups change the meaning of scripture as though they can force scripture to comply with only what they are prepared to believe and WANT TO believe.

You fall into both the first and second divisions of the third group mentioned above, IMO.

Go ahead now and say that I'm standing by a mirror pointing that finger at myself, because predictably that is what you will need to say in defense of your adding to, and taking away from, biblical scripture,

but know this:

"The Father's house" in which are many mansions is the only House of God on earth - and Jesus suffered for ours sins and died, rose again from the dead and ascended into heaven, and then sent down His Spirit upon His house in order to prepare a place for us in His Father's house - as He Himself had said.

God did not create Adam and Eve to live with Him in heaven. He created Adam and Eve to live on His created earth in their created bodies. Death is the enemy of God.

The time is coming when God is going to send strong delusion upon all those who claim to believe the Word of God but only believe the parts that they are prepared to believe, choosing the lies they WANT to believe, which many in the third group mentioned above have (like yourself) gotten from "delving deeper into the Word of God" while using their own human intellect that is based on the premise of (a) choosing to only believe the parts of the Word of God that they are prepared to believe, and (b) adding their own fantasies to the Word of God, and then conflating their own human intellect with "the teaching of the Holy Spirit."

 

[Zao is life]

Except that revelation 19 doesn’t mention the saints coming down with Jesus it does even mention Jesus coming down

You need to wear your reading glasses - supplied freely to those who are prepared to hear ALL that is written - when you read Revelation 19 so that you actually hear ALL that John wrote, then you won't end up changing the meaning of whatever part you desire and feel the need to take away the meaning of.

- which is not even going to be possible for you if you are already prepared to believe only the parts of the Word of God you have chosen to believe, and changed the meaning of the rest:

These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Remember, if you are able to hear it, that it is written that He will appear in the clouds - the sky.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 17:14 & 19:14-15).

And to her (the bride of Christ) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Revelation 19:8).

 

[Trekson]

Revelation 16-14 applies to the gathering at Armageddon, after the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.

The Daniel 11:40-44 attacks on the beast in Jerusalem is before the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.

This is the order...
1. the Daniel 11:40-44 attacks on the beast in Jerusalem.
2. then the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven.
3. then the Revelation 16:13-14 gathering at Armageddon to make war on the Son of man.

I think the Dan. 11 war might be earlier than that. Most of his time will be battling all over the place.

 

[Trekson]

The sign of the son of Man appearing in heaven in Matthew 24:30a will be the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:14-17.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture event, but the angels that Jesus will send to gather the Jews scattered in the nations to the land of their forefathers, Israel. Corresponding to Deuteronomy 30:4-5.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Here's how to tell the difference. If the passage speaks of the skies, the wind, the clouds, etc. it's the rapture gathering. If it says four corners of the earth, out of the nations, etc. it's the gathering of Israel.

 

[Trekson]

No the antichrist is not the beast.

John is the only person to use the term antichrist in the entire Bible in his epistles and this very same John also wrote the book of revelation


John in his epistles clearly teaches us the the antichrist is a spirit whose purpose is to deny that Jesus came from the Father. John also teaches us that the antichrist is more than one and was already in the world during his time

John also names the beast and the antichrist differently for a reason and he also shows that they have different personalities and purposes

The a/c is known by many titles. John uses the singular first and then adds that there are spirits associated w/ his type of evil.

1. Antichrist - The primary name used in the New Testament, specifically in the First and Second Epistles of John.
2. Man of Sin - A title used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, indicating his lawlessness and opposition to God.
3. Son of Perdition - Also found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, emphasizing his doomed nature.
4. Beast - Refers to the figure in Revelation, particularly in Revelation 13, symbolizing his power and authority.
5. Little Horn - A title from the Book of Daniel (Daniel 7 and 8), representing a ruler who speaks great things against God.
6. The Prince that Shall Come - Mentioned in Daniel 9:26, indicating a future ruler associated with destruction.
7. The Wicked One - A term used in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, highlighting his evil nature.
8. The Deceiver - Reflecting his role in leading people away from the truth.
9. Prince of the covenant
10. Man of lawlessness

 

[Douggg]

Here's how to tell the difference. If the passage speaks of the skies, the wind, the clouds, etc. it's the rapture gathering. If it says four corners of the earth, out of the nations, etc. it's the gathering of Israel.

The rapture event also includes a resurrection event. There in no resurrection in Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Trekson]

Sorry, I don't understand what that means.

Do you disagree that the Lord first and foremost, is coming a second time to take complete vengeance on those who have rejected the Gospel?


2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


The lord at a particular time in the future will raise all those in the grave.
Some will rise to glory and some to everlasting contempt.

Jn 5
27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].
28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].


This is consistent with 2Thess 1 and many other scriptures of Jesus own word regarding his own coming a second time.

What do you disagree with regarding these scriptures?

The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel! The wrath of the Lamb (trumpets) and the wrath of God (vials) takes care of the vengeance part.

 

[Trekson]

The ratpure event also includes a resurrection event. There in no resurrection in Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The "elect" in the NT always speaks of the church. The resurrected dead of the church are also God's elect. 1 Pet. 1:2.

 

[Douggg]

The "elect" in the NT always speaks of the church. The resurrected dead of the church are also God's elect. 1 Pet. 1:2.

The text of Matthew 24:31 contains nothing about a resurrection. Only a gathering by angels that Jesus sends to do it.

The "elect" in 2Timothy2:10 is referring to the Jews.

2Timothy2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The "election" in Romans 11:28 is referring to the Jews.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[rwb]

The spiritual doesn't eliminate the future physical reality. There is just too much prophesy about it to ignore.

Of course, Christ is coming again physically in the same manner He was seen departing this earth. The two aspects of His coming pertain to His first coming, when He came to all mankind a man, and He also comes through His Spirit to all of mankind who believe in Him and are born again. That's why I agreed with you regarding two aspects of His coming. He is not coming again in two aspects as you have suggested. He is coming again only ONCE at the end of this age, when the seventh trumpet sounds.

 

[Marty fox]

The a/c is known by many titles. John uses the singular first and then adds that there are spirits associated w/ his type of evil.

1. Antichrist - The primary name used in the New Testament, specifically in the First and Second Epistles of John.
2. Man of Sin - A title used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, indicating his lawlessness and opposition to God.
3. Son of Perdition - Also found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, emphasizing his doomed nature.
4. Beast - Refers to the figure in Revelation, particularly in Revelation 13, symbolizing his power and authority.
5. Little Horn - A title from the Book of Daniel (Daniel 7 and 8), representing a ruler who speaks great things against God.
6. The Prince that Shall Come - Mentioned in Daniel 9:26, indicating a future ruler associated with destruction.
7. The Wicked One - A term used in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, highlighting his evil nature.
8. The Deceiver - Reflecting his role in leading people away from the truth.
9. Prince of the covenant
10. Man of lawlessness

How John describes the antichrist is completely different that the other nine names that you posted

Go back and read the only four times that the term antichrist is used in the bible and see how John describes the antichrist and what John says that it is.

In Johns day the perfect description on the antichrist that we see in Johns gospel was the Pharisees

You still are avoiding my original questions. I,m not trying to be difficult but am doing what made me that made me be honest to myself and change my view

 

[Marty fox]

You need to wear your reading glasses - supplied freely to those who are prepared to hear ALL that is written - when you read Revelation 19 so that you actually hear ALL that John wrote, then you won't end up changing the meaning of whatever part you desire and feel the need to take away the meaning of.

- which is not even going to be possible for you if you are already prepared to believe only the parts of the Word of God you have chosen to believe, and changed the meaning of the rest:

These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Remember, if you are able to hear it, that it is written that He will appear in the clouds - the sky.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 17:14 & 19:14-15).

And to her (the bride of Christ) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Revelation 19:8).

How does any of that show or prove that the saints come down to the earth with him the beast was at war with the saints sure

 

[Zao is life]

How does any of that show or prove that the saints come down to the earth with him the beast was at war with the saints sure

Instead of asking me, you ought to diligently ask God in prayer why, in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, in the same passage where John mentioned the "fine linen, white and clean" that the armies were clothed with, who followed Christ on white horses (when He came down to battle with the beast and his armies), John identified the fine linen as "the righteousness of saints".

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to ask God at the same time to reveal to you if and where there is any error in your understanding, and your thinking, and what might be the source of such lack of understanding.

He is the giver of the Word, after all.

Do you believe Jesus when He says He will appear in the clouds and send His angels to gather His elect, and Paul when he speaks about the same thing in the day the elect who died in Christ are raised, and those still alive will be changed and caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air?

If not, you need to double-up with your diligence when you ask God to help you to understand.

Clearly you both ask others and rely on your own human intellect far too much. So why are you asking me?​

 

[Marty fox]

Instead of asking me, you ought to diligently ask God in prayer why, in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, in the same passage where John mentioned the "fine linen, white and clean" that the armies were clothed with, who followed Christ on white horses (when He came down to battle with the beast and his armies), John identified the fine linen as "the righteousness of saints".

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to ask God at the same time to reveal to you if and where there is any error in your understanding, and your thinking, and what might be the source of such lack of understanding.

He is the giver of the Word, after all.

Do you believe Jesus when He says He will appear in the clouds and send His angels to gather His elect, and Paul when he speaks about the same thing in the day the elect who died in Christ are raised, and those still alive will be changed and caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air?

If not, you need to double-up with your diligence when you ask God to help you to understand.

Clearly you both ask others and rely on your own human intellect far too much. So why are you asking me?​

Of course I believe all of that but that has nothing to do with the question

You added that Jesus and the saints come down to the earth

DI’d God come down to the earth when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed of did He send fore and brimstone?

You added to the scriptures

 

[Douggg]

Of course I believe all of that but that has nothing to do with the question

You added that Jesus and the saints come down to the earth

DI’d God come down to the earth when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed of did He send fore and brimstone?

You added to the scriptures

When Jesus returns, he stand on the mount of Olives splitting it half.

Zechariah 14;4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Trekson]

The text of Matthew 24:31 contains nothing about a resurrection. Only a gathering by angels that Jesus sends to do it.

The "elect" in 2Timothy2:10 is referring to the Jews.

2Timothy2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The "election" in Romans 11:28 is referring to the Jews.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom. 11:28, you're right. 2 Timothy is the church. It shouldn't have to mention it to be understood in Matt. 24:31, it's a given. 2 Thess. 2 doesn't mention the resurrection either but by his teachings we know they are included in the "one" gathering for the church.

 

[Trekson]

Of course, Christ is coming again physically in the same manner He was seen departing this earth. The two aspects of His coming pertain to His first coming, when He came to all mankind a man, and He also comes through His Spirit to all of mankind who believe in Him and are born again. That's why I agreed with you regarding two aspects of His coming. He is not coming again in two aspects as you have suggested. He is coming again only ONCE at the end of this age, when the seventh trumpet sounds.

Since, I've already pointed out that the 7th trump isn't the last trump, maybe a little study on the three fall feasts of Israel may be helpful to your understanding.

 

[Trekson]

How John describes the antichrist is completely different that the other nine names that you posted

Go back and read the only four times that the term antichrist is used in the bible and see how John describes the antichrist and what John says that it is.

In Johns day the perfect description on the antichrist that we see in Johns gospel was the Pharisees

You still are avoiding my original questions. I,m not trying to be difficult but am doing what made me that made me be honest to myself and change my view

I went back and answered the questions that I saw. Which one did I miss? John's description isn't any better, he just focused on the fact that the a/c doesn't work alone. He has had several years and millions of demons to help in the task of deceiving the church and it's ability to recognize truth.