Marty, you and I view Rev 19 somewhat the same. The difference between us is that you believe 70 AD points to spiritual fulfillment for what is written, and I believe the cross of Christ points to spiritual fulfillment for what is written.
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Marty, you and I view Rev 19 somewhat the same. The difference between us is that you believe 70 AD points to spiritual fulfillment for what is written, and I believe the cross of Christ points to spiritual fulfillment for what is written.
Neither do I see complete fulfillment at the cross and resurrection. There won't be complete fulfillment until the gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached unto all the nations of the world, and the Kingdom in heaven is complete.
Revelation 19:1-4 (KJV) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
I view these first four verses coming to pass through the first advent of Christ. It was through His human birth that salvation, glory, honor, and power unto the Lord our God has come. Rev 12 tells us the birth of Christ caused a war to take place in heaven. With Satan and his demonic spirit hosts being cast down to earth by Michael and His spirit messengers (angels) of God. In vss 12:10-11 we read "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." The much people in heaven IMO are the Old Covenant faithful saints that had died in faith waiting for the promised Savior to come to redeem them.
Revelation 12:12 (KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Before continuing with vss. 5-8 attempting to be somewhat brief I'll stop here until you have a chance to digest what I've said thus far.
Revelation 12
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 7 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days
7Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8
It wasn't Jesus birth it was His death as shown in this verse. The proof of that is in the other verse that you quoted.
" And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death"
They overcame by the blood of the Lamb thus His death.
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It was through Christ's birth that the New Covenant and the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven was ushered in. Remember all of the promises of God are yes, and amen! The Old Covenant faithful saints could not ascend to heaven until after Christ literally made atonement for sin and defeated death, but Christ is according to promise the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV) For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:31-33 (KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
The Old Covenant saints who died in faith ascended to heaven with Christ after He resurrected from the grave, but they were already according to faith in the bosom of Abraham. IOW eternally saved according to promise.
Yes they were saved by their faith in a future Messiah and savior, but they were saved by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus had to die and rise.
The verse that I provided in my last post to you proves it
According to promise all who shall be redeemed by Christ are eternally saved from the foundation of the world. We are counted among the redeemed of Christ from the foundation of the world when our names are written in the book of life. In the same manner in which Abraham was according to promise eternally saved before the cross and resurrection. That's how Christ can speak of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being in the Kingdom of heaven before He gave His life to atone for sin and defeated death. Because God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Christ speaks of these dead saints as being alive even though they have long ago physically died.
Matthew 8:11 (KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 22:32 (KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Yes I'm not disagreeing with that but the fact is that Christ still had to die to pay for our sins and the verses I posted proves my point.
Revelation 12
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 7 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days
7Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8
It wasn't Jesus birth it was His death as shown in this verse. The proof of that is in the other verse that you quoted.
" And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death"
They overcame by the blood of the Lamb thus His death.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I think it's a perfectly logical choice for Him to meet us there since He at the same time will be taking vengeance on unbelievers.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
You are the one who has not read scripture carefully. Ask God for wisdom so that you stop mistinterpreting every verse you read (James 1:5-7).
If 2 Peter 3:10-12 only referred to an event that happens 1,000+ years after the second coming of Christ, then do you think it is referring to a different day of the Lord than Paul references in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3?
If 2 Peter 3:10-12 only referred to an event that happens 1,000+ years after the second coming of Christ, then why does Peter tell his readers to think about "what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness" in relation to the coming of the day of the Lord? He implied that what he was describing could potentially happen during the lifetimes of his readers, but here you are saying that it can't happen until 1,000+ years after the second coming of Christ. How does that make any sense?
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The 7th trumpet is the last prophetic trumpet, as is the last trumpet. So, they are the same.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The robes are real, eh? You obviously do not read scripture carefully at all. The text indicates that the robes or fine linen symbolically represent "the righteous acts of the saints".
Revelation 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You need to pay attention to what the text actually says instead of making it say what you want it to say.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
How in the world can you deny that a description of the Lord Jesus being revealed from heaven with His mighty angels is not the second coming? Get serious! Of course it is. And verse 10 indicates that the rapture will occur on the same day that Jesus is revealed from heaven to take vengeance on unbelievers. So, there is no pre-trib rapture. That theory is a complete farce and you need to stop believing in that nonsense.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I never said that He will physically destroy all of His enemies from all-time all at once. I was talking only about all of His enemies who are alive when He comes again. Do you not believe that He will destroy all living unbelievers in the future when He comes again?
Okay, you do believe that. Good. Disregard my question above then.
It doesn't say they don't leave heaven. So, that's an argument from silence. Whether they leave heaven or not needs to be determined by looking at scripture as a whole. The text talks about Jesus killing "all people, free and slave, small and great" at that time. That lines up with other scriptures which talk about Him taking vengeance on and physically destroying all living unbelievers when He comes again.
Is there a description following that of Jesus destroying all of His enemies? No. So, you need to look at the context. I am not claiming that heaven being opened in and of itself proves that Jesus comes down from heaven at that time, but other details show that is what it is talking about, based on what other scriptures teach.
I disagree. That's not the impression that Jesus Himself gives in the parable found in Matthew 25:1-13. If you read that, then you should see that the wedding doesn't take place until Jesus returns.
Go to the end of each paragraph and press Enter. Then you can respond directly after each paragraph.
The old covenant was done away with at the cross, not in 70 AD as preterists falsely claim. This is one major reason why I have major disdain for preterism. Jesus made the old covenant obsolete at the cross and established the new covenant at that time.
I disagree with your understanding of what the book of Revelation is about. I do not believe that Babylon represents apostate Israel as preterists like you do. I believe the great city Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9), which means it symbolically represents the church. So, Babylon symbolically represents everything outside of the church. All of the false religions, philosophies and everything that opposes the one true God that people follow.
The book of Revelation is not all or mostly about things that happened up until 70 AD, as preterists imagine. It is about Jesus Christ and His church and about things that happen throughout the New Testament era up until the future glorious second coming of Jesus Christ at which point the judgment will occur and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, it was through Christ's death, as Marty said.
Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
The passage above indicates that Jesus is the "Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises", which refers to the new covenant. So, this passage is saying the new, second covenant is better than the old, first covenant. Keep that in mind when you read this...
Hebrews 10:9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
This is saying that Jesus took away the first, old covenant so that He could establish the second, new covenant. Then it indicates how that happened, which was "through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all". So, the death of Christ is what ushered in the new covenant while at the same time making the old covenant obsolete.
No scriptures prove it is or isn't just a well grounded understanding of prophecy as a whole. Like, the knowledge of how the future feasts of Israel is a valid aspect of study as is anything else within the context of prophecy. The fact that, if we believe that Rev. details aspects of the 70th week, then the majority of Rev. is for believing Israel, not the church (but not because of a pre-trib rapture) and things will align according to "their" understanding, not ours. The fact that Zech. 9:14 states that God himself will blow the last trumpet 'not" an angel. There is no scriptural evidence that Paul had any inking of the prophecy revealed to John, thus he really had no clue there would come a time when seven trumpets would be sounded and must have had another understanding on his mind, which could only be in the context of the feast of trumpets but also a trump will sound on the last day of the feast of tabernacles, the 8th day. It's also possible that the church and Israel could each have their own last trump for different reasons. In John 6 the "last day" is mentioned frequently and in the Jewish mind, that concept meant the "last day" of the feast of Tabernacles because when fulfilled, the next day would be the first day of the millennial kingdom.
I agree Christ had to literally come in the flesh that all that is written of Him would be literally fulfilled. How do you think Old Covenant saints were eternally saved before the first advent of Christ? Do you believe they were saved by grace through faith when they heard the gospel of Christ and believed in the promised Messiah who was to come?
Zech 9:14 makes no mention of the last/seventh trumpet. The only place in Old Testament Scripture that speaks of seven trumpets is found in Joshua and that has to do with conquering Jericho. Had nothing to do with feasts of Israel.
Joshua 6:3-4 (KJV) And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.
Many times prophecies are given in a way the prophets receiving them would understand and sometimes they just lack the actual words to describe what they are really seeing. For example, missiles can be described as arrows, falling stars, fire from the skies, cluster bombs could be hail stones, a chariot could be a truck that is carrying soldiers. One has to be a little realistic and know that God isn't going to mention tanks, anti-aircraft weapons, bazookas, ak 47's, etc. because that would mean nothing to them. However, there are also scriptures that the route of the enemy will be blocked, via landslides or earthquakes which would make horseback the only viable way to get from point A to point B.
Peter shared what he was given. It wasn't the 'whole" story just part of it. Vs. 11 describes the end of it 1 Thess. 4 and 5 and 2 Thess. 2 describes the beginning of it as does Matt. 24:29-31 and the signs of the 6th seal. The next time a new heavens and earth are mentioned is 'after" the millennium in Rev. you do the math.
When you understand the fall feasts, you will see they are not. But that begs the question, if you believe the last time a trump is mentioned, it must be the last trumpet, yet the last time the word "woe" is mentioned, you don't believe it to be that last, third woe? What's the difference or is that 'your" interpretation?
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