Pictures of Two Comings

[Trekson]

The robes are real, eh? You obviously do not read scripture carefully at all. The text indicates that the robes or fine linen symbolically represent "the righteous acts of the saints".

Revelation 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Surely you realize that practically everyone in heaven wears fine, white linen. In this case, that leans more towards Israel then it does to the church because we have no righteousness of our own, just the righteousness of Christ that covers us. However, is that that same description for this? Rev. 15:6 - "And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles." Or do you think that in heaven some folks are wearing 'fine" linen and other folks are wearing 'shabby" linen?

 

[Trekson]

You need to pay attention to what the text actually says instead of making it say what you want it to say.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

How in the world can you deny that a description of the Lord Jesus being revealed from heaven with His mighty angels is not the second coming? Get serious! Of course it is. And verse 10 indicates that the rapture will occur on the same day that Jesus is revealed from heaven to take vengeance on unbelievers. So, there is no pre-trib rapture. That theory is a complete farce and you need to stop believing in that nonsense.

I disagree, yes, you must pay attention to what the text says but "you don't stop there". You compare it w/ the writings of Matt, Luke, Peter, John, etc. and what the OT prophets said about these times, then you add them together in a way that aligns w/ each other. If some points don't line up, you study more to find out why. In this case, add vss 4-6 to your context and put it in the light of the church enduring the GT spoken of in vss. 4-6, then Lk. 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption (imo, the rapture) draweth nigh". Where do we next see the church after enduring the GT? Rev. 7:9 the raptured/resurrected next show up in heaven. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" Where did they come from? Rev. 7:14 - "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

[Trekson]

Zech 9:14 makes no mention of the last/seventh trumpet. The only place in Old Testament Scripture that speaks of seven trumpets is found in Joshua and that has to do with conquering Jericho. Had nothing to do with feasts of Israel.

Joshua 6:3-4 (KJV) And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.

Regarding Zech. that was my point, the last trumpet has "nothing" to do w/ the seven trumpets

 

[Marty fox]

I agree Christ had to literally come in the flesh that all that is written of Him would be literally fulfilled. How do you think Old Covenant saints were eternally saved before the first advent of Christ? Do you believe they were saved by grace through faith when they heard the gospel of Christ and believed in the promised Messiah who was to come?

Yes they were saved by grace through faith of a future coming messiah and saviour

 

[rwb]

Yes they were saved by grace through faith of a future coming messiah and saviour

Exactly! According to promise all who are ordained to eternal life from the foundation of the world are eternally saved from the foundation of the world. Because all of the promises of God are yes, and Amen! I believe in Rev 19 begins with John seeing a vision from heaven of what shall be after Christ's cross & resurrection. That's the only way there could be much people in heaven saying "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God". None shall enter into heaven until Christ has come to prepare the way for them.

The marriage supper of the Lamb had come for the dead Old Covenant faithful saints through the blood of the Lamb shed from the foundation of the world according to promise. Though they were made ready for the marriage supper, the supper itself will not be eaten until all are gathered together from the New Covenant who shall also be made ready by believing in the gospel of the Kingdom of God preached through the power of the Holy Spirit.

When the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, those in heaven will hear the angel say, "Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God."

 

[rebuilder 454]

I disagree, yes, you must pay attention to what the text says but "you don't stop there". You compare it w/ the writings of Matt, Luke, Peter, John, etc. and what the OT prophets said about these times, then you add them together in a way that aligns w/ each other. If some points don't line up, you study more to find out why. In this case, add vss 4-6 to your context and put it in the light of the church enduring the GT spoken of in vss. 4-6, then Lk. 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption (imo, the rapture) draweth nigh". Where do we next see the church after enduring the GT? Rev. 7:9 the raptured/resurrected next show up in heaven. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" Where did they come from? Rev. 7:14 - "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

They had dirty robes and were martyred.
They were in the GT.
They were those left behind from the pretrib rapture .
Remember, the martyrs were confined to under the altar " UNTIL THEIR NUMBER IS COMPLETED ".
So now we see the COMPLETED martyrs in number , in the general population.
IOW , "The times of the Gentiles completed" with the last of the martyrs.
Church age is over. 7 yr trib is well underway.

 

[Marty fox]

I never said that He will physically destroy all of His enemies from all-time all at once. I was talking only about all of His enemies who are alive when He comes again. Do you not believe that He will destroy all living unbelievers in the future when He comes again?


Okay, you do believe that. Good. Disregard my question above then.


It doesn't say they don't leave heaven. So, that's an argument from silence. Whether they leave heaven or not needs to be determined by looking at scripture as a whole. The text talks about Jesus killing "all people, free and slave, small and great" at that time. That lines up with other scriptures which talk about Him taking vengeance on and physically destroying all living unbelievers when He comes again.

But it also doesn't say that they do leave heaven so that is also an argument from silence from you. I still see it from all time including the end of our world but at the end of our world is by fire which is different from this text.

Is there a description following that of Jesus destroying all of His enemies? No. So, you need to look at the context. I am not claiming that heaven being opened in and of itself proves that Jesus comes down from heaven at that time, but other details show that is what it is talking about, based on what other scriptures teach.


I disagree. That's not the impression that Jesus Himself gives in the parable found in Matthew 25:1-13. If you read that, then you should see that the wedding doesn't take place until Jesus returns.

That parable doesn't support your view, in that parable the fire burning out is about their heart for God, showing that they were never truly saved in the first place that's why they miss the wedding banquet when they die due to being unsaved not keeping the faith till they die.

That message is for everybody from the first advent until the end of time the message to always be ready for death.

Go to the end of each paragraph and press Enter. Then you can respond directly after each paragraph.

Thanks, the last site I was on was done in a different way

The old covenant was done away with at the cross, not in 70 AD as preterists falsely claim. This is one major reason why I have major disdain for preterism. Jesus made the old covenant obsolete at the cross and established the new covenant at that time.

Agreed but Israel kept keeping to the old covenant which was a rejection of their Messiah thus God had to physically end it.

FYI I'm a partial Preterist not full preterist.

I disagree with your understanding of what the book of Revelation is about. I do not believe that Babylon represents apostate Israel as preterists like you do. I believe the great city Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9), which means it symbolically represents the church. So, Babylon symbolically represents everything outside of the church. All of the false religions, philosophies and everything that opposes the one true God that people follow.

Revelation 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

I also have a post on 10 biblical scriptures pointing Jerusalem to Babylon the great

The book of Revelation is not all or mostly about things that happened up until 70 AD, as preterists imagine. It is about Jesus Christ and His church and about things that happen throughout the New Testament era up until the future glorious second coming of Jesus Christ at which point the judgment will occur and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

Revelation to me is the revelation of Jesus Christ as in who He is and what He did. He is God and He ushered in the New Covenant.

It is also a book of transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and from the earthly Jerusalem to the Heavenly Jerusalem the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter shared what he was given. It wasn't the 'whole" story just part of it. Vs. 11 describes the end of it

1 Thess. 4 and 5 and 2 Thess. 2 describes the beginning of it as does Matt. 24:29-31 and the signs of the 6th seal. The next time a new heavens and earth are mentioned is 'after" the millennium in Rev. you do the math.

 

[Trekson]

They had dirty robes and were martyred.
They were in the GT.
They were those left behind from the pretrib rapture .
Remember, the martyrs were confined to under the altar " UNTIL THEIR NUMBER IS COMPLETED ".
So now we see the COMPLETED martyrs in number , in the general population.
IOW , "The times of the Gentiles completed" with the last of the martyrs.
Church age is over. 7 yr trib is well underway.

No such thing as a pre-trib. The 5th seal martyrs are the still here church. There is no such group as "trib saints", they are "us"!

 

[amigo de christo]

you see them two . that looks like my expression every time
i gotta hear a l ove a thon ecumeincal pope led nar realm led interfaith .
Not to mention when i hear lots of their other doctrines too .
Its like here we go , more pope led ecumeincal nar realm led lies to hear .

 

[amigo de christo]

But it also doesn't say that they do leave heaven so that is also an argument from silence from you. I still see it from all time including the end of our world but at the end of our world is by fire which is different from this text.



That parable doesn't support your view, in that parable the fire burning out is about their heart for God, showing that they were never truly saved in the first place that's why they miss the wedding banquet when they die due to being unsaved not keeping the faith till they die.

That message is for everybody from the first advent until the end of time the message to always be ready for death.




Thanks, the last site I was on was done in a different way



Agreed but Israel kept keeping to the old covenant which was a rejection of their Messiah thus God had to physically end it.

FYI I'm a partial Preterist not full preterist.



Revelation 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

I also have a post on 10 biblical scriptures pointing Jerusalem to Babylon the great



Revelation to me is the revelation of Jesus Christ as in who He is and what He did. He is God and He ushered in the New Covenant.

It is also a book of transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and from the earthly Jerusalem to the Heavenly Jerusalem the church.

evelation 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

I also have a post on 10 biblical scriptures pointing Jerusalem to Babylon the great
And guess where that location is , JERUSALEM . that is where THE LORD was crucified , right outside on calvary hill .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But it also doesn't say that they do leave heaven so that is also an argument from silence from you.

I didn't say that it did. I have been saying multiple times that we need to look at other scripture to determine what Revelation 19:11-21 is about. And other scripture like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 has Jesus descending from heaven when He destroys all unbelievers, as is described in Revelation 19:11-21.

I still see it from all time including the end of our world but at the end of our world is by fire which is different from this text.

Agree to disagree then.

That parable doesn't support your view

Yes, it does. Very clearly.

, in that parable the fire burning out is about their heart for God, showing that they were never truly saved in the first place that's why they miss the wedding banquet when they die due to being unsaved not keeping the faith till they die.

That message is for everybody from the first advent until the end of time the message to always be ready for death.

You missed the point. The point is that the parable shows all true believers, represented by the five wise virgins, going to meet the Bridegroom at the same time, not over the course of a long time period. So, the wedding will not take place until Jesus comes to gather all of His believers from all-time at the same time. I believe you are allowing preterist teaching to cloud your vision about these things.

Thanks, the last site I was on was done in a different way

Yeah, I had to get used to how it's done here, too. It took me awhile to figure it out.

Agreed but Israel kept keeping to the old covenant which was a rejection of their Messiah thus God had to physically end it.

That means nothing. They were doing it out of ignorance of not understanding that the old covenant was obsolete and the better new covenant had replaced it.

FYI I'm a partial Preterist not full preterist.

I know that. I very much dislike full preterism, but I'm not a fan of partial preterism, either. I understand that full preterism is much worse.

Revelation 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

I also have a post on 10 biblical scriptures pointing Jerusalem to Babylon the great

Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem and Jerusalem would not figuratively be called Sodom and Egypt.

John 19:20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Also, there are aspects of Babylon the great that clearly do not describe Jerusalem. Babylon encompasses much more than just Jerusalem or Rome (as others believe it represents). It is the mother of all harlots, including Jerusalem and Rome.

Revelation to me is the revelation of Jesus Christ as in who He is and what He did. He is God and He ushered in the New Covenant.

That is very significant, but it's about more than that just like other New Testament books are about more than that. It's also about the church and what it would go through during the new covenant era with persecution from the enemy and so on and about Christ's second coming in the future when He will destroy all living unbelievers, judge all people and usher in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

It is also a book of transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and from the earthly Jerusalem to the Heavenly Jerusalem the church.

Earthly Jerusalem is not in view in the book of Revelation. If it was, then it would have been addressed to the churches in Jerusalem rather than to churches in the Roman province of Asia. It's about Jesus and His church and the enemies of Jesus and His church throughout the New Testament era up until the future second coming of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When you understand the fall feasts, you will see they are not.

Show me the scripture which associates the last trumpet with the fall feasts.

But that begs the question, if you believe the last time a trump is mentioned, it must be the last trumpet, yet the last time the word "woe" is mentioned, you don't believe it to be that last, third woe? What's the difference or is that 'your" interpretation?

LOL. You are silly. What a ridiculous argument. It's not about when a trumpet or woe is last mentioned. The last trumpet is just that. The last prophetic trumpet. The last prophetic trumpet that will sound is the seventh trumpet. That makes the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet the same. Similarly, the third woe is the last of the three woes regardless of which woe is last mentioned. Please get serious and stop making these types of weak arguments.

Beyond that, what scripture says happens at the last trumpet is that death will be swallowed up in victory and Paul references Isaiah 25:8 in that verse (1 Cor 15:54). John also quotes that verse's fulfillment in relation to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:4). So, put two and two together and you can see that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in after the sounding of the last trumpet. In the description of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18, it says that will signal "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". When will the dead be judged? After the thousand years and Satan's little season, according to Revelation 20:11-15.

So, I can use scripture to prove that the last trumpet and seventh trumpet are the same. You can't refer to any scripture to prove that they are not the same or that the last trumpet has anything to do with the fall feasts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Many times prophecies are given in a way the prophets receiving them would understand and sometimes they just lack the actual words to describe what they are really seeing. For example, missiles can be described as arrows, falling stars, fire from the skies, cluster bombs could be hail stones, a chariot could be a truck that is carrying soldiers.

You obviously don't understand how symbolism works. You are acting as if the symbols are supposed to resemble what they symbolize. No, that's not how symbolism works.

Mystery Babylon is described as a harlot/woman. Does that mean Babylon resembles a woman? No, of course not. Whatever you think the beast symbolizes, I'm sure it doesn't resemble a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns, right? Do you see my point? Your expectation that symbols like falling stars have to actually resemble falling stars in some way is completely flawed. What a symbol symbolizes does not have to resemble the symbol at all, as in the case of what the harlot/woman and the beast symbolize.

 

[Trekson]

Show me the scripture which associates the last trumpet with the fall feasts.


LOL. You are silly. What a ridiculous argument. It's not about when a trumpet or woe is last mentioned. The last trumpet is just that. The last prophetic trumpet. The last prophetic trumpet that will sound is the seventh trumpet. That makes the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet the same. Similarly, the third woe is the last of the three woes regardless of which woe is last mentioned. Please get serious and stop making these types of weak arguments.

Beyond that, what scripture says happens at the last trumpet is that death will be swallowed up in victory and Paul references Isaiah 25:8 in that verse (1 Cor 15:54). John also quotes that verse's fulfillment in relation to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:4). So, put two and two together and you can see that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in after the sounding of the last trumpet. In the description of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18, it says that will signal "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". When will the dead be judged? After the thousand years and Satan's little season, according to Revelation 20:11-15.

So, I can use scripture to prove that the last trumpet and seventh trumpet are the same. You can't refer to any scripture to prove that they are not the same or that the last trumpet has anything to do with the fall feasts.

Believe what you want, If you don't want to study enough to find the truth it's on you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No such thing as a pre-trib. The 5th seal martyrs are the still here church. There is no such group as "trib saints", they are "us"!

The Bible says that every man woman and child on the planet takes the mark, not in the book.
The Bible says that power was given the Antichrist to overcome the saints. The Bible says they overcame the Antichrist by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they love not their lives, unto death.....they all died.
The bible says that those refusing the mark are killed.

Everyone of your supposed saints going through the tribulation is martyred.
It is hard to wiggle out of what the bible says

 

[rebuilder 454]

No such thing as a pre-trib. The 5th seal martyrs are the still here church. There is no such group as "trib saints", they are "us"!

No trib yet.
No AC yet.
You are way way off.

 

[Trekson]

The Bible says that every man woman and child on the planet takes the mark, not in the book.
The Bible says that power was given the Antichrist to overcome the saints. The Bible says they overcame the Antichrist by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they love not their lives, unto death.....they all died.
The bible says that those refusing the mark are killed.

Everyone of your supposed saints going through the tribulation is martyred.
It is hard to wiggle out of what the bible says

Except for Christ's promise of Matt. 24:22. Those days are 'shortened for "our" sake. If they weren't, you're right, no one would be left alive but it's my opinion that it will be shortened via the rapture and our arrival in heaven is shown at Rev. 7:9, 14.

 

[Trekson]

No trib yet.
No AC yet.
You are way way off.

I agree those times have not yet begun. I don't know why you thought I said otherwise.

 

[Marty fox]

I didn't say that it did. I have been saying multiple times that we need to look at other scripture to determine what Revelation 19:11-21 is about. And other scripture like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 has Jesus descending from heaven when He destroys all unbelievers, as is described in Revelation 19:11-21.

Yes, but there are different things in those verses like this verse shows Jesus coming with His angels not the saints and with blazing fire not the sword of His mouth so obviously not the same one-time event.

Agree to disagree then.


Yes, it does. Very clearly.


You missed the point. The point is that the parable shows all true believers, represented by the five wise virgins, going to meet the Bridegroom at the same time, not over the course of a long time period. So, the wedding will not take place until Jesus comes to gather all of His believers from all-time at the same time. I believe you are allowing preterist teaching to cloud your vision about these things.


Yeah, I had to get used to how it's done here, too. It took me awhile to figure it out.


That means nothing. They were doing it out of ignorance of not understanding that the old covenant was obsolete and the better new covenant had replaced it.


I know that. I very much dislike full preterism, but I'm not a fan of partial preterism, either. I understand that full preterism is much worse.


Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem and Jerusalem would not figuratively be called Sodom and Egypt.

John 19:20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Also, there are aspects of Babylon the great that clearly do not describe Jerusalem. Babylon encompasses much more than just Jerusalem or Rome (as others believe it represents). It is the mother of all harlots, including Jerusalem and Rome

Yes, Jesus died just outside of the walls of Jerusalem but that was still considered Jerusalem, Revelation 11 does say that Jesus was killed in "the great city".

Jerusalem bring called Sodom and Egypt to me symbolizes its morality and bondage.

.


That is very significant, but it's about more than that just like other New Testament books are about more than that. It's also about the church and what it would go through during the new covenant era with persecution from the enemy and so on and about Christ's second coming in the future when He will destroy all living unbelievers, judge all people and usher in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Yes, there are many other events in revelation I'm just showing what I believe that the overall message is.

Earthly Jerusalem is not in view in the book of Revelation. If it was, then it would have been addressed to the churches in Jerusalem rather than to churches in the Roman province of Asia. It's about Jesus and His church and the enemies of Jesus and His church throughout the New Testament era up until the future second coming of Christ.

Weather Revelation refers to earthly Jerusalem or not has no bearing on who the seven letters are addressed too. The seven letters are personal messages to seven literal churches at the time of John writing it.