Reason for The Crusades explained

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rvmb

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Paul also says

Ephesians 6:10-12
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
.

We are allowed to defend ourselves
I have listened to various messages re Eph 6:10-12 + 13-17.
They're a 'fence sitter' for me regarding physical self-defense against an actual person.
Matt 5:21-22 & Rom 13:4 for me are enough to justify self-defense of yourself & innocent others.
Others may think otherwise
 

rvmb

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You aren’t hearing / understanding me.



Among other things, I’m a retired minister of the lord Jesus Messiah. You may rest assured that I don’t hate you. My brothers and sisters don’t treat their enemies the way you treat yours.
Just using verses, how do you believe a person today is eternally saved ?
 

Matthias

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Just using verses, how do you believe a person today is eternally saved ?

SHURF. Please see the parable of the sower for an explanation of the acronym. (I don’t think you need me to quote the verses in Matthew, Mark, and Luke but I will if you want me to.)
 

Armour of God

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@Matthias

Look I think i understand what your saying. The Crusaders pillaged and burnt villages, tortured people, killed prisoners of war and raped women, so did the Muslims. I'm I agreement with you in that these actions were/are wrong.

All I'm saying is that they had the right to defend themselves against invasion and attack. And you basically agreed that you would defend yourself too.
Do we at least agree on that?
That we can defend ourselves?

I'm trying to be understanding and diplomatic here. Trying to reach an agreement
 
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rvmb

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SHURF. Please see the parable of the sower for an explanation of the acronym. (I don’t think you need me to quote the verses in Matthew, Mark, and Luke but I will if you want me to.)
That's Matthew.
Acts 9:15, Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 teaches that Paul is Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles & now everyone.
I can't find any verses that teach Matthew has authority over Paul to teach Salvation to believers listed in Gal 3:28, Col 3:11.
Can you list any ?
 

Brakelite

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Just wanted to mention that to participate in any bloodshed was not a Christian thing to do when Christ walked the earth……it wasn’t even a Jewish thing to do because Israel did not even have a military force when under subjugation by gentile nations..…and Jews who fought with the Roman armies (their conquerors) were viewed as traitors, as were the tax collectors who collected taxes for the Roman government….it was seen as siding with the enemy.

So there is mention of “Christian nations” in that video….when no such nations exist in a world ruled by the devil.
There is a reason why Jesus taught his followers to be ”NO PART OF THE WORLD”. (John 18:36)

The “two swords” that this man mentions are taken out of context and given a meaning that was not in keeping with what Jesus said to his disciples on that occasion.

”And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.” (Luke 22:35-38 ESV)

Were two swords “enough” to take on an armed mob? And if they had been unarmed all this time, why buy swords now and too few?

When he was preaching with his apostles among the Jews, hospitality was an a expectation….which is why they needed no provisions and wanted for nothing. But with his impending death, things were about to change.

From that time forward they would not be welcomed by the majority, but would be rejected and scorned. Consequently, they would have to make some provisions for themselves.

After stating what their situation would be in the future, Jesus explained to his disciples why things were going to change; he gave them the reason. It was because he was to be killed, taken away like a transgressor and executed with lawless ones in fulfillment of Isaiah 53:12.

The “lawless ones” were not the disciples to whom he was speaking, but, instead, were the evildoers with whom Jesus was executed.

When Peter impetuously drew his sword and cut off the ear of the slave Malchus, Jesus reprimanded him. He said that “those who take the sword will perish by the sword”; besides, if he wanted to, he could have called on the angels for help. (Matt 26:52-53)

But that was not what he wanted. As shown by his not engaging the two swords for defense, Jesus was willingly giving himself to die between two “lawless ones.” It was to fulfill prophesy.

As for “Christians” engaging in military conflicts, it is apparent that the early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, both in the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the teachings of Christianity

For example…
Justin Martyr (110-l65 C.E.) in his “Dialogue with Trypho” wrote: “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” There is no doubt where Tertullian stood in 204 C.E. on the question of military service for Christians.

In his treatise De Corona, chapter XI, discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” he argued from Scripture “the unlawfulness even of a military life itself,” concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”

Origen [185-254] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. . . . , In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service. On March 12, 295, Maximilian, the son of a famous Roman veteran, was called upon to serve in the Roman army and he refused, saying simply: ‘I am a Christian.’—H. Ingli James, quoted in Treasury of the Christian World, 1953, edited by A. Gordon Nasby, p. 369.

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180] no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, 1947, E. W. Barnes, p. 333)

So, later history involving the so called “Christian” knights participating in military campaigns with wonton bloodshed were not abiding by Christ’s commands at all. As God had told his ancient people when they involved themselves in such unsanctioned bloodshed…..

“Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.” (Isa 1:14-15 ESV)

By their disobedience, they made their feast days abhorrent to their God.
Unless God was fighting for Israel, they shed blood in vain…they did not have his sanction and so were just as guilty of wrongdoing as their enemies.

In view of what took place with the Assyrian army who came against Israel who were horribly outnumbered…..God is very capable of taking care of his own business. (Isa 37:33-36)

There can be no bloodshed for Christians no matter how patriotic one has been trained to be from infancy.
These two positions are incompatible.

I know that won’t sit well with the patriots….but there is no such thing as a “just war” when humans want to justify their bloodshed. It’s only a “just war” when God decrees it…..he has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel.
I think you are taking a lot of things out of context. I agree with you about joining some random army and going of to war against neighbors over some political squabble. Or mining rights. Or land/boundary disputes and theft.
But there were Christian mains in the past, with genuine Christian rulers and a vast majority of Christian population. Even China was like that a few centuries after Christ. And many kingdoms along the great silk road were Christian. Ghengis Khan's grandson and granddaughter i think were Christian as were the majority of the people they ruled over.
However, look into the history of the Waldenses. Over several centuries they had crusades sent against them in their peaceful valleys, and had to take to the mountains to escape. There they defended themselves. They didn't join an army as such, but became one out of necessity or else they would be wiped out. Many suffered terribly at the hands of papal armies and mercenaries who joined the crusades for fun and games. Papal bulls were issued calling for their complete destruction for refusing to bow to papal authority. Gruesome tortures were devised to persuade these innocent Christians to surrender. Their neighbours on the French side we're also put to the slaughter by French catholic armies, their homes destroyed, farms burnt, women raped and children murdered. These weren't people who threatened the papal seat. They just wanted to mind their own and the Lord's business and preach truth. Their suffering which they endured for centuries is forgotten and is the subject of historical revisionism by supporters of Rome. Self defense, even to the extent of forming your own army is fully justified when your neighbors, your families and communities are at great risk.
 

Matthias

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Another book that I‘ve highly recommended to my readers for the past three decades:

1773492884480.jpeg

This is the way for followers of Jesus to arm themselves.
 

Armour of God

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Another book that I‘ve highly recommended to my readers for the past three decades:

View attachment 81363

This is the way for followers of Jesus to arm themselves.
Maybe you didn't see the message I posted to you so I'll post it again. I hope we can agree on something here

Look I think i understand what your saying. The Crusaders pillaged and burnt villages, tortured people, killed prisoners of war and raped women, so did the Muslims. I'm I agreement with you in that these actions were/are wrong.

All I'm saying is that they had the right to defend themselves against invasion and attack. And you basically agreed that you would defend yourself too.
Do we at least agree on that?
That we can defend ourselves?

I'm trying to be understanding and diplomatic here. Trying to reach an agreement
 

Matthias

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Maybe you didn't see the message I posted to you so I'll post it again. I hope we can agree on something here

Look I think i understand what your saying. The Crusaders pillaged and burnt villages, tortured people, killed prisoners of war and raped women, so did the Muslims. I'm I agreement with you in that these actions were/are wrong.

All I'm saying is that they had the right to defend themselves against invasion and attack. And you basically agreed that you would defend yourself too.
Do we at least agree on that?
That we can defend ourselves?

I'm trying to be understanding and diplomatic here. Trying to reach an agreement

I’ve seen all of the posts you’ve made to me, as well the posts you’ve made about me to others in this thread and in the “Christians Only” forum.
 

Armour of God

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I’ve seen all of the posts you’ve made to me, as well the posts you’ve made about me to others in this thread and in the “Christians Only” forum.
So your not answering my question?

Can we defend ourselves against attack just as you would defend yourself against attack?
 

Matthias

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So your not answering my question?

I think you’re an intelligent person and I believe you have a good memory. You remember what you‘ve said to me and to others about me answering your questions. With that in mind, I’ve asked myself why you are asking me more questions. Among other things, I’m a retired civil / environmental engineer. I’m a problem solver, and I’ve solved this one.

Can we defend ourselves against attack just as you would defend yourself against attack?

Please see above.
 

Matthias

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1773496630558.jpeg

This is an excellent book. I’ve frequently quoted from it in this thread. It’s an easy read and one that I think most of my readers would enjoy.
 

Armour of God

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I think you’re an intelligent person and I believe you have a good memory. You remember what you‘ve said to me and to others about me answering your questions. With that in mind, I’ve asked myself why you are asking me more questions. Among other things, I’m a retired civil / environmental engineer. I’m a problem solver, and I’ve solved this one.



Please see above.
You haven't answered my question.

From what I've read in your previous posts you expect people to not defend themselves and be killed while on the other hand you would defend yoursef.
That's called hypocrisy.

Your going to need industrial machinery to pull out that log in your eye my friend

images-6.jpeg
 

Armour of God

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I myself owe my life to everyone who helped stop the Muslim invasion of Europe. From those hard working blacksmiths fabricating swords, shields and armour to those brave soldiers who fought and died against the evil Muslim invaders. Without those good men, Europe would have been over run by Islam and us Christians would not be here today. We should all be greatful to them
 

Wrangler

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Remove the log from your eye
Decades ago, my 3 yo experienced my wrath for her bad behavior and bad attitude. My wife at the time attempted to shame me for not using the minimum amount of force “necessary“ to punish her. I stood on my moral authority; NO, I told her! The children need to learn they run the risk in bad behavior of incurring more than the minimum amount of wrath, the force “necessary“ to punish her. This risk should induce fear and wisdom encouraging good behavior, thereby avoiding unpleasant and painful consequences.

I call this my God quality. No doubt God’s orientation toward us is the exact same.
 
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Wrangler

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Paul also says …. We are allowed to defend ourselves
One powerful message of the Bible is the importance of staying on the narrow path, don’t go too far left or too far right. The overly-spiritualized disregard this when it comes to soulful considerations and commands.

@Matthias only wants spiritual verses up for conversation and decision-making, going too far to the left, which is why he repeatedly ignores the implications of such verses as you have cited like Ephesians 6:10-12 and others:
  1. Yes, give to God what is God’s, but also give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.
  2. Yes, put God first but God will also meet your practical, soulful needs such as clothes, food and shelter.
  3. Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth, but we have the burden to SEEK, KNOCK, ASK.
  4. Yes, Jesus preached about God’s kingdom of the future, but also he tended to our practical needs here and now; he fed the hungry, gave sight to the blind and made the lame walk.
  5. Yes, keep holy the Sabbath Day as Jesus is the lord of the Sabbath - but also work the other 6 days or don’t eat.
  6. Yes, the resurrected Jesus said he’d be with us until the end of the age, but he also grilled fish at the beach for his hungry friends.
Balance. Practical, soulful wisdom and actions for us to model. This is consistent with Oliver Cromwell’s quip, “Yes, pray, but mind you, keep your powder dry.”
 
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Wrangler

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The Crusaders pillaged and burnt villages, tortured people, killed prisoners of war and raped women, so did the Muslims. I'm I agreement with you in that these actions were/are wrong.

All I'm saying is that they had the right to defend themselves against invasion and attack.
The indoctrinated refuse to embrace rational discernment. Just because the Crusaders went over board after the fact doesn‘t mean they weren’t justified in launching the Crusades to begin with, taking it to Islam in the holy lands.

Two things can be true at the same time. And these 2 things are true with the more important truth being the CAUSE, not the effect. Said differently, the Christians are less at fault for the excess than the Muslim hordes are. That’s why police are not held personally responsible for legal acts done in service to the community - they are not charged with murder for killing a murderer. If you hit someone on the highway, you are not off the hook for that car smashing into another. The Muslims are responsible for their Karma, for the cause and effects, for what they sowed, they also reaped!

In the interest of EQUALITY & JUSTICE, where are the laments of the Muslims burning Christian villages, torturing Christians, killing Christian POW’s and raping Christian women for centuries BEFORE the Crusades? There is no sense of justice, of balance in reporting the atrocities of war. Despite the facts, the false narrative is:
  • Muslims's are innocent victims who can do no wrong;
  • White, Heterosexual Christian men can do no right.
And this evil standard is enthusiastically embraced by indoctrinated Christians on this very forum.
 
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Armour of God

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The indoctrinated refuse to embrace rational discernment. Just because the Crusaders went over board after the fact doesn‘t mean they weren’t justified in launching the Crusades to begin with, taking it to Islam in the holy lands.

Two things can be true at the same time. And these 2 things are true with the more important truth being the CAUSE, not the effect. Said differently, the Christians are less at fault for the excess than the Muslim hordes are. That’s why police are not held personally responsible for legal acts done in service to the community - they are not charged with murder for killing a murderer. If you hit someone on the highway, you are not off the hook for that car smashing into another. The Muslims are responsible for their Karma, for the cause and effects, for what they sowed, they also reaped!

In the interest of EQUALITY & JUSTICE, where are the laments of the Muslims burning Christian villages, torturing Christians, killing Christian POW’s and raping Christian women for centuries BEFORE the Crusades? There is no sense of justice, of balance in reporting the atrocities of war. Despite the facts, the false narrative is:
  • Muslims's are innocent victims who can do no wrong;
  • White, Heterosexual Christian men can do no right.
And this evil standard is enthusiastically embraced by indoctrinated Christians on this very forum.
True there are always going to be such people. But to be honest it's Matthias hypocrisy that shocked me the most. That's why I keep telling him about the log in his eye cos that parable is about hypocrisy, like a vegan eating an omelette.

He admitted himself that he would defend his family if they were being attacked so he doesn't really believe what he preaches anyway.

His just a fraud trying to be politically correct and virtue signalling when deep down he would actually done the same thing, defend himself and his family