The Current War against Iran and Support for Israel is based on Catholic Counter Reformation Theology.

[PinSeeker]

The end the bible talks about, actually is around the time He returns.

Agreed. I've never said otherwise.

In that time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation.

We are in that time now. Jesus says so multiple times, Matthew 24:3-24, chief among them. And possibly very close to the time Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:21 may be very close, even by our standards (and is not a separate time period). But then, yes, the end will come, and He will return. There is absolutely no Biblical support for His returning and taking people away to anywhere for any length of time and then returning again.

It matters for the specific promise of God restoring them in a specific time to a specific place.

Ethnicity is not part of the equation, dad, other than people of every ethnicity being included... and together inheriting the earth.

The remnant of Israel that gets saved do not get saved because of ethnicity.

Right, but they are not a specific ethnicity, Jewish or otherwise. There is no Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Have you not made that distinction yet?

<chuckles> Round and round we go, in circles...

What does getting saved in general have to do with the topic of God only restoring Israel after they also get saved?

<chuckles> You are making a distinction where there is none. Separating (in your mind, at least) what God has joined together, actually.

The remnant will be saved...

Right, the fullness of the Gentiles will be brought in, and the partial hardening that is now on Israel removed, and in this way all of Israel will be saved, as Paul says in Romans 11:25:26. I don't see how folks can deny this, but to each his own, I guess...

...and subsequently restored to the promised land.

Right, which is the whole earth, as Jesus says in Matthew 5:5. And God says in Revelation 21:5... all things.

To claim they are already restored by God to that land is putting the cart before the horse.

Don't know who is doing that... <smile>

They are not 'called' to salvation after they get saved...

Right, didn't say that either...

...they are carried back to the land by God after they get saved.

<chuckles> I mean, I haven't gotten carried anywhere, and neither have you, nor has anyone else...

The promise of God to do what He says He will do for the saved of Israel in the very end is not their 'calling'

Well, right, but that seems to be what you said before, never me. Again, you conflate a couple of things here...

No one is pre destined for salvation

We are predestined, dad ~ and I'm quoting Paul in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, here ~ "to be conformed to the image of his Son," and we were chosen by God "in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him," and "in love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." Again, deny it all you want (although I wouldn't, if I were you), but that is Scripture, verbatim.

His plan of salvation was predestined.

No, we were. He made a plan, certainly ~ the outcome was determined at the start ~ but we were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus. See above.

Once we ourselves decide, then He starts to conform/chasten/correct us.

So you're saying that our will determines His will, with regard to our salvation, which is in direct opposition to Romans 9:16. Direct opposition. No, "it..." (being one of God's elect) "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." And one thing about that... A key word there is "depends." important because the inference to be made there is that no one denies that we make a choice or even insinuates that we can't make this choice (much less Paul or even John Calvin), but merely that it does not depend firstly on our making that choice. God's elect will make that choice, not because we are "robots" or that we are somehow "forced" to do so but because their heart has been softened... this is our new birth by and of the Spirit... and given a new spirit, even God's Spirit, so that then we are of God, and our desire is to do God's will... no longer of our former father the devil and desiring to do his will (John 8, 10).

Doing good is not what saves us and doing bad is not what damns us.

Ah, it depends on the perspective from which we're making that statement... We will all be judged according to what we have done, as Paul says in Romans 2:6... "He will render to each one according to his works." So, in the end... Jesus gives us a graphic depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46. There is no other way to see that other than... each is judged according to his/her works, what he or she has done. So our ultimate salvation does depend on our works from that perspective. However... <smile> ...God's grace initially comes to us... those of us who are saved, who have been born again of the Spirit... free. This is grace, unmerited favor. Yes, by grace we have been saved through faith. And this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, it's an initial vs. ultimate thing. In the former sense, we have been saved ~ by God's grace ~ and in the latter sense, we are being saved.

Deciding to accept or reject Jesus is. It is pre decided that we can, if we choose to come to Him, then be conformed to be like Him. It was not decided who would go to hell and heaven.

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:19-24)

And some of those vessels will be the rag tag survivors of Israel in the end.

Ah, okay... <smile> But again, the issue is, who is really of... who really makes up... God's Israel?

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

From above...

Yes He calls us all.

Ah, well, in one sense yes:

The general call of the Gospel, and the call to repentance and belief in Christ goes out to all, certainly.​

But in a different sense no:

God's inward call, issued by His Spirit, is only given to His elect. As Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44) And this is shortly after He told Nicodemus (the teacher of Israel), "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8).​

Many are called, and some choose Him.

Sure, but the inward calling of God by the Holy Spirit is their impetus... to choose Him. Having been born again of the Spirit, and given a new spirit, they are then compelled, even in and of themselves, to do so, and they will not fail to do so, even of their own free will and accord. It's not an issue of the will, or whether it is free or not. Of course it is, but it always follows the heart, the spirit of the person.

(therefore they become part of the chosen)

Ah, by choosing to be chosen... And thus making God's grace something other than grace, merited favor. No... <chuckles> I mean this is what Paul says in Romans 11:6... "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Our faith, which was are saved through, dad, is not a work. The writer of Hebrews gives us the definition of faith: "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (11:1) It is not a self-assurance, as that would not be any kind of real assurance at all, but merely wishful thinking. It is given us by God, a gift of God, as Paul says in Romans 2:8 and 1 Corinthians 12:9. And because we have this assurance from God, we have eternal life and salvation ~ in one sense now and in another sense in the future.

Relax, we will not be hostile to the saved remnant or anyone else.

<chuckles>

Yes, Jew or Greek or Russian, we saved are all one.

Yes. <smile>

Having God reward a few of us with a promised patch of real estate on earth does not mean we are not one or not at peace etc.

<smile> <sigh> The meek shall inherit the earth. There are no such limits. The real promise is... much larger than you think...

Grace and peace to you, dad. Nobody denies physical Israel, dad. But the physical nation of Israel and God's Israel are two different things... two different bodies of people. Not exclusive, because God's Israel includes many of physical Israel. But God's Israel is not limited to physical Israel, nor is the true Promised Land limited to tiny physical Israel on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.

Grace and peace to you, dad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’d be a little interested to hear your reasoning why you think Judas is not saved. I could tell you why I changed my mind on it, and I will if you like, but yeah, why do you think that?

I've only told you that several times before already, but sure.

Here is why...

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

I don't believe for a second that Jesus would call one of His saved followers a devil.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus said he was lost. Therefore, he was not saved. Pretty simple.

Mark 14:21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”

It's clear to me that Jesus would not say that it would be better if a saved man had never been born.

Also, as I'm sure you know, Judas ended up killing himself. I believe that if he was truly repentant and his faith was in Christ he would have understood that he could be forgiven for what he had done and would have no reason to kill himself.

I think the evidence is quite strong that Judas was not saved, at least not after he betrayed Jesus.

So, how did you come to realize that Judas was not saved?

lol! Maybe someday you’ll come to realize you think far more along the same lines as Calvin did.

No, I'm sure I do not.

That was always one of the main issues, is you have Calvin all wrong, attributing things to him (like him denying free will) ~ many things ~ that are quite ridiculous.

Explain how he believed in free will in the same or similar way that I do? That is not possible since I believe every person is capable of willingly choosing to repent and believe and John Calvin definitely did not believe that.

If you actually knew what Calvin said, rather than holding on to your false perceptions of what he said (which you’re certainly not alone in), you might find yourself changing your tune on a lot of things.

Nope. You know how you were mistaken about Judas being saved? You're mistaken about this, too. Maybe some day you'll realize it.

Right, the fact that you did any kind of search at all is the point.

Why would that be creepy? It took very little time and, based on previous discussions, I assumed you might need proof of what you said. I remember multiple occasions where I've told you something you've said and you demanded proof because you didn't recall saying it.

I’m obviously in your head.

LOL. Get over yourself. Please. Seriously.

 

[dad]

Agreed. I've never said otherwise.


We are in that time now. Jesus says so multiple times, Matthew 24:3-24, chief among them.

No, the tribulation is a specific time given in Daniel and Revelation. Nothing to do with now.

And possibly very close to the time Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:21 may be very close, even by our standards (and is not a separate time period). But then, yes, the end will come, and He will return. There is absolutely no Biblical support for His returning and taking people away to anywhere for any length of time and then returning again.

I won't dispute that we could be very near that time

Ethnicity is not part of the equation, dad, other than people of every ethnicity being included... and together inheriting the earth.

What equation? Salvation? Of course not. Israel and it's remnant in the end? Well, to a degree that has to do with their lineages.

Right, but they are not a specific ethnicity, Jewish or otherwise. There is no Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yes the survivors of Israel not killed as most are prophesied to be killed, will be Jewish. In no way does that mean we are not saved also. Nor does it mean it will not be through faith in Jesus that they will be saved. Nor does it mean they will not be one with us. It just means God is not a liar and they will get what was promised. Not sure why some Christians begrudge them this

<chuckles> Round and round we go, in circles...


<chuckles> You are making a distinction where there is none. Separating (in your mind, at least) what God has joined together, actually.

No. Being joined in Jesus and salvation does not mean identical rewards or that promises made will be broken.

Right, the fullness of the Gentiles will be brought in, and the partial hardening that is now on Israel removed, and in this way all of Israel will be saved, as Paul says in Romans 11:25:26. I don't see how folks can deny this, but to each his own, I guess...

Not sure what it is that you thought you read there. In no way does it say God is a liar that will not give the saved remnant of Israel the lands He promised. How you imagine that this is a denial of that verse I have no idea.

Right, which is the whole earth, as Jesus says in Matthew 5:5. And God says in Revelation 21:5... all things.

We inherit the earth, and the remnant that iis part of we after they get saved inherit a specific part of it.

Well, right, but that seems to be what you said before, never me. Again, you conflate a couple of things here...


We are predestined, dad ~ and I'm quoting Paul in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, here ~ "to be conformed to the image of his Son,"

Yes, we believers in general have had the salvation plan set up for us. We can now choose to be saved or not. God doesn't choose for us

and we were chosen by God "in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him," and "in love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." Again, deny it all you want (although I wouldn't, if I were you), but that is Scripture, verbatim.

No denying what should be obvious. He planned how we would be saved and made the way. Our salvation/adoption was pre determined IF we choose Jesus. That was what was pre destined, not that we had to reject or accept Him

No, we were. He made a plan, certainly ~ the outcome was determined at the start ~ but we were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus. See above.

The outcome that depended entirely on our choice.

So you're saying that our will determines His will, with regard to our salvation, which is in direct opposition to Romans 9:16.

False you just did not understand it.

Direct opposition. No, "it..." (being one of God's elect) "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

I see no 'it' in Rom 9:19?

And one thing about that... A key word there is "depends." important because the inference to be made there is that no one denies that we make a choice or even insinuates that we can't make this choice (much less Paul or even John Calvin), but merely that it does not depend firstly on our making that choice.

I see no such inference. Jesus cleared that up Whosoever will, let Him come ...etc. Yes it entirely depends on our choice! heaven and hell contain people who chose to be there. NOT who God chose to be there.

God's elect will make that choice, not because we are "robots" or that we are somehow "forced" to do so but because their heart has been softened... this is our new birth by and of the Spirit... and given a new spirit, even God's Spirit, so that then we are of God, and our desire is to do God's will... no longer of our former father the devil and desiring to do his will (John 8, 10).

What verse are you trying to refer to? 2 whole chapters? Like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. He leads us to salvation. He does not make us drink. He wants all to be saved. He died for all. He made (is) the way.

Ah, it depends on the perspective from which we're making that statement... We will all be judged according to what we have done, as Paul says in Romans 2:6... "He will render to each one according to his works." So, in the end... Jesus gives us a graphic depiction of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46. There is no other way to see that other than... each is judged according to his/her works, what he or she has done.

Yes there is another way. In the judgment seat of Jesus, it is all saved people. The rewards are given. Some receive greater rewards and others less. None of that means we work to get saved of course.

So our ultimate salvation does depend on our works from that perspective.

False! The salvation depends on Jesus and our choice. Period. He paid for it. The works that THEN follow because He is then in us and helping us, determine rewards, NOT salvation.

However... <smile> ...God's grace initially comes to us... those of us who are saved, who have been born again of the Spirit... free. This is grace, unmerited favor. Yes, by grace we have been saved through faith. And this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, it's an initial vs. ultimate thing. In the former sense, we have been saved ~ by God's grace ~ and in the latter sense, we are being saved.

I think we are agreeing here

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:19-24)


Ah, okay... <smile> But again, the issue is, who is really of... who really makes up... God's Israel?

Continued...

This says He calls people who are both Jews or Gentiles...so?

 

[dad]

From above...


Ah, well, in one sense yes:

The general call of the Gospel, and the call to repentance and belief in Christ goes out to all, certainly.​

But in a different sense no:

God's inward call, issued by His Spirit, is only given to His elect. As Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44) And this is shortly after He told Nicodemus (the teacher of Israel), "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8).​

Name me anyone that God did not try to attract/draw to Himself? Thankfully He does that! So we who choose to come to Him (indeed drawn by God of course) can do so. Don't think that He died for nothing. He died to make a way for us. Not because only some would be 'drawn' to God anyhow.

Sure, but the inward calling of God by the Holy Spirit is their impetus... to choose Him.

Encouragement to choose Him. Not force. He said preach the gospel to all. Not to some who had special 'impetus'.

Having been born again of the Spirit, and given a new spirit, they are then compelled, even in and of themselves, to do so, and they will not fail to do so, even of their own free will and accord. It's not an issue of the will, or whether it is free or not. Of course it is, but it always follows the heart, the spirit of the person.

? You ain't deep, you are just not very clear.

Ah, by choosing to be chosen... And thus making God's grace something other than grace, merited favor. No... <chuckles>

Yes. Those who CHOOSE Jesus are the only saved. They are the chosen. We can choose only because He died for us and His grace. His grace and the way He made is only for those who choose Him. Then we also are chosen of God, of course.

I mean this is what Paul says in Romans 11:6... "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Our faith, which was are saved through, dad, is not a work. The writer of Hebrews gives us the definition of faith: "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (11:1) It is not a self-assurance, as that would not be any kind of real assurance at all, but merely wishful thinking. It is given us by God, a gift of God, as Paul says in Romans 2:8 and 1 Corinthians 12:9. And because we have this assurance from God, we have eternal life and salvation ~ in one sense now and in another sense in the future.

It is given to those who come to Him. Of course it is not by our works

<chuckles>


Yes. <smile>


<smile> <sigh> The meek shall inherit the earth. There are no such limits. The real promise is... much larger than you think...

The real promises are all going to happen. Even the ones you try to wave away

Grace and peace to you, dad. Nobody denies physical Israel, dad. But the physical nation of Israel and God's Israel are two different things...

Only until the point when they all get saved Then they are the same thing!

two different bodies of people. Not exclusive, because God's Israel includes many of physical Israel.

Many do get saved before the end, yes.

But God's Israel is not limited to physical Israel,

The promise of the land is for saved Israel, and since we will also be frequent flyers there, (HQ on earth for our rule with Him) of course the only ones living or having rights there will not be limited to the remnant.

nor is the true Promised Land limited to tiny physical Israel on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.

The promised lands were specific actually. Not pi in the sky.

 

[PinSeeker]

Here is why...

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. I don't believe for a second that Jesus would call one of His saved followers a devil. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus said he was lost. Therefore, he was not saved. Pretty simple. Mark 14:21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” Also, as I'm sure you know, Judas ended up killing himself. I believe that if he was truly repentant and his faith was in Christ he would have understood that he could be forgiven for what he had done and would have no reason to kill himself. I think the evidence is quite strong that Judas was not saved, at least not after he betrayed Jesus.

Okay. I mean, no offense, but I don't buy your reasoning, because it's really just speculation, and/or inferences that I don't believe can really be made. In my view, none of what you cite here about Judas is unforgivable. Even calling him a devil... and even if meant as meaning not having salvation conferred upon him, Judas still at some point could have been forgiven even for betraying Jesus. He could have repented at any point. He didn't, but he could have, and he would have been forgiven. As you know, I'm sure, there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is calling evil good and good evil, and I do not believe Judas did that. We agree about Judas in the end, but I don't think any of the above proves he was not saved.

I think the evidence is quite strong that Judas was not saved, at least not after he betrayed Jesus.

Curious is the way you assert that, but I know where you stand on "falling away," and you me. One cannot lose his salvation once given. I remember you pointing out Hebrews 6 a few times, to which I answered with Hebrews 3:12... It's the evil, unbelieving heart that causes a person to fall away, which is what I've said... if they fall away, it's because they never really believed from the heart. Which backs up what John says in 1 John 2 about those who fall away, that "they went out from us because they were not of us; if they had been with us they would have remained with us." Which... speaks to what you said before about Calvin not believing in free will, which is not true...

So, how did you come to realize that Judas was not saved?

Mainly that we have no record of him repenting of his sin as Peter did. The silence is deafening, there, and I think you agree with that.

No, I'm sure I do not.

That matters not. But I think you think along the same lines as he did, even unknowingly... more ~ and maybe far more ~ than you realize.

Explain how he believed in free will in the same or similar way that I do?

I did before, and I did briefly above in this post. Not necessary to get into it again, but really, free will is free will; there's no two ways about it. Of course we have free will. And as I've said many times, the issue ~ when it comes to our salvation in the Lord ~ is not a matter of the will, but the heart ~ Hebrews 3:12 ~ which is the reason why the will is what it is at any given moment. As I have posted many times before, to you and others, Jesus points out in John 8 and John 10 particularly why people don't believe... John 8:44 and John 10:27-29, respectively:

• "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires."
• "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

And Jesus does say their will is their own, so of course he does not deny free will, and neither does any Calvinist. But the issue ~ yet again ~ is what their will is and why they... use it... the way they do.

That is not possible since I believe every person is capable of willingly choosing to repent and believe and John Calvin definitely did not believe that.

He did. I mean you've said that over and over but never offered anything as any kind of "proof" that he did not. We are able to choose anything (which is kind of ridiculous to even have to say...), but yeah, sure. At issue is whether we will use our will one way or another, and why or why not. I've said it many times; see above.

Nope. You know how you were mistaken about Judas being saved? You're mistaken about this, too.

<chuckles> Many a thing (or things) are folks adamant about, even stridently so, but come to change their mind about later... Besides that, though, I'm not sure how one can assert another of being mistaken about anything that he or she has very wrong ideas about in the first place.

Why would that be creepy?

Not "creepy," but telling; actions speak louder than words.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, the tribulation is a specific time given in Daniel and Revelation.

Agree.

Nothing to do with now.

Disagree.

What equation? Salvation? Of course not. Israel and it's remnant in the end? Well, to a degree that has to do with their lineages.

So... I said, dad, that ethnicity is not part of the equation... not relevant to salvation. Which you seem to agree with, and then in the same breath say it "has to do with their lineages," Now, "to a degree"... yeah not even sure what you mean by that... <smile> But okay, lineage (singular), through Isaac, the child of the promise.

Yes the survivors of Israel not killed as most are prophesied to be killed, will be Jewish. In no way does that mean we are not saved also.

Jewish in the sense that Paul talks about true Jews in Romans 2:28-29... "a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit..." These are the true Jews of God, of His Israel.

It just means God is not a liar and they will get what was promised.

We all will, yes. All of us in Christ.

Not sure why some Christians begrudge them this

None does, I don't think... <smile> I surely don't.

Being joined in Jesus and salvation does not mean identical rewards or that promises made will be broken.

Absolutely. But we will all have eternal life, and be co-heirs with Christ... of the whole earth.

Not sure what it is that you thought you read there. In no way does it say God is a liar that will not give the saved remnant of Israel the lands He promised. How you imagine that this is a denial of that verse I have no idea.

The "saved remnant of Israel," dad, is both the fullness of the Gentile elect and the elect ethnic Jews. I wouldn't call it a "denial," although it may be, at least in effect. In Romans 11:25-26, Paul equates the "fullness of the Gentiles" (the Gentile elect) and the ethnic Jews who are presently hardened (the ethnically Jewish elect), calling them together, collectively, all Israel. Whether you're just not understanding this or denying it I'm not sure, but it is what it is. And Paul ~ Jew of Jews that he is ~ says the same thing to the Ephesian Gentiles in Ephesians 2, that they are "no longer strangers and aliens, but ...fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God." And speaking to Gentiles in Corinth, he also says, "all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus)" (2 Corinthians), and to the Galatians, "the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' Who is Christ... if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3).

We inherit the earth...

Yes.

, and the remnant that iis part of we after they get saved inherit a specific part of it.

<chuckles> No, they are then one with us (Gentiles), and eventually inherit the earth with us. Goodness gracious.

Yes, we believers in general have had the salvation plan set up for us. We can now choose to be saved or not.

Well, if our heart is changed ~ if our heart of stone is removed and given a heart of flesh... given a new spirit by God, even His Holy Spirit, as God says through Ezekiel (11:19-20; 36:26-27). This is how we are saved. Hey, dad, did you somehow choose to be born to your biological mother and father, however many years ago that might have been? Well no... <smile> And Jesus did tell Nicodemus, "I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

God doesn't choose for us

No, He doesn't. Right. <smile> But He did, as Paul says in Ephesians 1... well, He "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..."

No denying what should be obvious.

Agree. <smile> Yeah, it is what it is. Yet still... <smile>

He planned how we would be saved and made the way.

He did, yes... <smile>

Our salvation/adoption was pre determined IF we choose Jesus.

Well, right, but not depending firstly on our choosing Jesus. This is the effect, not the cause. As John says (1 John 4:19), "we love because He first loved us."

That was what was pre destined, not that we had to reject or accept Him

We, dad, we... were predestined by God to be conformed to the image of His son. Our choice in the effect of that. Yes, humanly speaking, we do choose whether to reject or accept anything. But again... Nicodemus (John 3)... "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The outcome that depended entirely on our choice.

Again: completely opposite Paul's assertion in Romans 9:16 concerning God's elect.

False you just did not understand it.

You don't mean to, maybe, dad, but in effect, you are in face saying that our will determines His will, and making God's grace out to be something other that grace, or unmerited favor.

SIGH...

I see no 'it' in Rom 9:19?

Romans 9:16, dad.

I see no such inference.

I know. <smile> But it's there... <smile>

Jesus cleared that up Whosoever will, let Him come ...etc.

Ah yes, and Paul did too, in Romans 10:13... "For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" He's quoting directly from Joel 2:32, there, dad. And in reading Joel 2:32, we can plainly see that this 'everyone,' this 'whosoever,' depends on having first received the calling of God. Quoting again, "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." It depends first on God and His call, and then we follow. Without fail. No one "makes us do it." But because of this new heart, this new spirit that we have, we can do no other ~ even in and of ourselves and our very free will. In this way we are set free from our previous bondage, and we freely choose Him.

Yes it entirely depends on our choice!

Not entirely. Very important, for sure, but, well, again... being one of God's elect "depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). See above.

heaven and hell contain people who chose to be there.

Agreed.

NOT who God chose to be there.

Hmmm, well, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5, God "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." I mean, you can disagree with me all you want, but that's what Paul says... and really God through him... It is what it is.

Name me anyone that God did not try to attract/draw to Himself? Thankfully He does that!

Hmmm... well God never fails, dad. Yes, thankfully. But as Job says, "I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:6). And as Isaiah says, "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:10-11). A question (to which I know you know the answer): Who is God's Word, dad?

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

From above...

The real promises are all going to happen.

They surely are.

Even the ones you try to wave away

I "wave away" none of them. Nor do I imagine them as limited as you do.

The promise of the land is for saved Israel...

Agreed. <smile> Absolutely.

The promised lands were specific actually. Not pie in the sky.

Agreed. <smile> Absolutely.

Grace and peace!

 

[dad]

So... I said, dad, that ethnicity is not part of the equation... not relevant to salvation. Which you seem to agree with, and then in the same breath say it "has to do with their lineages," Now, "to a degree"... yeah not even sure what you mean by that... <smile> But okay, lineage (singular), through Isaac, the child of the promise.

No. Salvation has nothing to do with lineages. The promise to restore a saved Israel remnant does.

Jewish in the sense that Paul talks about true Jews in Romans 2:28-29... "a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit..." These are the true Jews of God, of His Israel.

As far as salvation goes. When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, He acknowledge their lineage. But that did not save them, they were still the children of hell.

Absolutely. But we will all have eternal life, and be co-heirs with Christ... of the whole earth.

That does not change the promise to saved Israel for the promised land. Not at all.

The "saved remnant of Israel," dad, is both the fullness of the Gentile elect and the elect ethnic Jews.

The saved remnant of Israel actually is the relatively few Jewish survivors who all decide to believe in the end. The ones saved before that time are saved believers and are from all nations. now if you like to refer to our saved Jewish brethren in general today and in history as a remnant, fine. That is not the remnant that get restored to the land. That is just Jewish Christians/brethren

I wouldn't call it a "denial," although it may be, at least in effect. In Romans 11:25-26, Paul equates the "fullness of the Gentiles" (the Gentile elect)

I have heard different opinions on what the fullness of the Gentiles means. Perhaps you think you have Scriptures for your opinion?

and the ethnic Jews who are presently hardened (the ethnically Jewish elect), calling them together, collectively, all Israel.

Hardened? You mean unbelievers?

Whether you're just not understanding this or denying it I'm not sure, but it is what it is. And Paul ~ Jew of Jews that he is ~ says the same thing to the Ephesian Gentiles in Ephesians 2, that they are "no longer strangers and aliens, but ...fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God."

Exactly. Of course the ones saved now are fellow citizens. Why pretend I disagreed?

And speaking to Gentiles in Corinth, he also says, "all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus)" (2 Corinthians), and to the Galatians, "the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' Who is Christ... if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3).

In other words Jesus is the way. This is news? How does that relate to the survivors of Israel who get saved and receive the promised land in the end?

Yes.


<chuckles> No, they are then one with us (Gentiles), and eventually inherit the earth with us. Goodness gracious.

The remnant that is saved in the end ALSO inherit the specific promised lands. Why pretend it is mutually exclusive?

Well, if our heart is changed ~ if our heart of stone is removed and given a heart of flesh... given a new spirit by God, even His Holy Spirit, as God says through Ezekiel (11:19-20; 36:26-27). This is how we are saved.

Yes. Of course. Just as God will give the believing Israel in the end a new heart.

Hey, dad, did you somehow choose to be born to your biological mother and father, however many years ago that might have been? Well no... <smile> And Jesus did tell Nicodemus, "I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

? That relates to the issue of some Jews getting saved in the end, --how?

No, He doesn't. Right. <smile> But He did, as Paul says in Ephesians 1... well, He "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..."

Yes He chose to save us if we chose Jesus. That plan was made before the world was. Therefore we are blameless before Him, (because of Jesus)

Well, right, but not depending firstly on our choosing Jesus. This is the effect, not the cause.

No. Cart, meet horse. We love Him because He first loved us. Not because we had some special forced shove into heaven that the poor hell bound folks never get!

As John says (1 John 4:19), "we love because He first loved us."

Funny I just quoted that too. Apparently you imagine that it means that He arranged that we choose Jesus like it or not? (while damning most of the world who didn't get that arranged gift)

 

[dad]

We, dad, we... were predestined by God to be conformed to the image of His son.

As already mentioned, yes, we believers who choose Jesus then begin to be transformed into the image of Jesus. He predetermined that we would be able to do that because of His sacrifice that would make it possible. Not some forced rape like thing.

Our choice in the effect of that. Yes, humanly speaking, we do choose whether to reject or accept anything. But again... Nicodemus (John 3)... "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

? Do you seriously not understand the passage? Guess how we get born again? We CHOOSE Jesus. Simple.

Again: completely opposite Paul's assertion in Romans 9:16 concerning God's elect.

Your comprehension was simply backwards. Hop you get it now

You don't mean to, maybe, dad, but in effect, you are in face saying that our will determines His will, and making God's grace out to be something other that grace, or unmerited favor.

Only the willing get saved. He is not a rapist.

Ah yes, and Paul did too, in Romans 10:13... "For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" He's quoting directly from Joel 2:32, there, dad. And in reading Joel 2:32, we can plainly see that this 'everyone,' this 'whosoever,' depends on having first received the calling of God.

You added that caveat in. Maybe we should erase the word whosoever that God used, and replace it with 'just the extra special ones who were the only ones who could ever possibly have gotten saved, while most are destined for hell fire'?

Quoting again, "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls."

He calls many. Few respond. God calls us all to repentance. Whosoever will, let Him come! Not 'only the ones who think they had some special extra call'

It depends first on God and His call, and then we follow. Without fail. No one "makes us do it." But because of this new heart, this new spirit that we have, we can do no other ~ even in and of ourselves and our very free will. In this way we are set free from our previous bondage, and we freely choose Him.

There is no new heart unless and until one comes to Jesus. Period. Take that to the bank

Not entirely. Very important, for sure, but, well, again... being one of God's elect "depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). See above.

In other words only Jesus could pay the ransom. We could never pay it. Only believing in Jesus saves us when we come to Him. Not our exertions.

Hmmm, well, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5, God "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." I mean, you can disagree with me all you want, but that's what Paul says... and really God through him... It is what it is.

Us, being those who came to Him. Not some pre selected people while everyone else can go to hell in a handbasket.

A question (to which I know you know the answer): Who is God's Word, dad?

Continued...

Jesus

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay. I mean, no offense, but I don't buy your reasoning, because it's really just speculation and/or inferences that I don't believe can really be made

You have to be kidding me. How is it speculation that someone Jesus said would've been better off never having been born possibly saved? There's no need for speculation here.

In my view, none of what you cite here about Judas is unforgivable.

The statement Jesus made that it would have been better for Judas to never have been born has nothing to do with something Judas did that could be forgiven. It's a clear statement that Judas was not saved. It's clearly not something Jesus would have said about someone who was saved or who He knew was going to end up being saved. For Jesus to say that it would be better for Judas if he had not yet born means Jesus knew that Judas was not saved and that he was going to end up in hell.

Even calling him a devil... and even if meant as meaning not having salvation conferred upon him, Judas still at some point could have been forgiven even for betraying Jesus.

In that case, I'm saying Judas was clearly not saved at that time, at the very least. Of course such a person could be saved at a later time. But, the argument you have made in the past is that Judas was saved all along, so that was clearly not the case. The fact that Jesus said it would be better had Judas never been born shows that he did not become saved after that, either.

He could have repented at any point.

Of course. So, that particular argument is more against the idea that Judas was saved all along than the idea that Judas was saved when he died.

Curious is the way you assert that, but I know where you stand on "falling away," and you me. One cannot lose his salvation once given. I remember you pointing out Hebrews 6 a few times, to which I answered with Hebrews 3:12... It's the evil, unbelieving heart that causes a person to fall away, which is what I've said... if they fall away, it's because they never really believed from the heart. Which backs up what John says in 1 John 2 about those who fall away, that "they went out from us because they were not of us; if they had been with us they would have remained with us." Which... speaks to what you said before about Calvin not believing in free will, which is not true...

I recall telling you before that citing a verse like 1 John 2:19 that refers to those who were never saved in the first place is not a valid refutation of a verse that is clearly addressed to believers like Hebrews 3:12. The two verses have different contexts. John's confidence that if those who were never saved would have remained with them is specifically about that particular group of believers in John's circle and is not a statement regarding all believers.

Anyway, this is supposed to be about Judas. What is your understanding of what Jesus said here:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus was talking about the twelve disciples, including Judas here and said that the Father gave them all to Him, and none of them were lost except for Judas. What do you think that means for Judas to have been given to Jesus and to be lost?

Mainly that we have no record of him repenting of his sin as Peter did. The silence is deafening, there, and I think you agree with that.

Not only no record of that, but I think it's clear that someone who has repented of their sin would not then want to kill themselves. They would believe in God's forgiveness and would believe that God could help them live the way He wanted them to.

That matters not. But I think you think along the same lines as he did, even unknowingly... more ~ and maybe far more ~ than you realize.

I am sure I do not think at all along the same lines as John Calvin did. You are quite mistaken.

I did before, and I did briefly above in this post. Not necessary to get into it again, but really, free will is free will; there's no two ways about it. Of course we have free will. And as I've said many times, the issue ~ when it comes to our salvation in the Lord ~ is not a matter of the will, but the heart ~ Hebrews 3:12 ~ which is the reason why the will is what it is at any given moment. As I have posted many times before, to you and others, Jesus points out in John 8 and John 10 particularly why people don't believe... John 8:44 and John 10:27-29, respectively:

• "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires."

Why was it their will to do their father's desires? You never address that. You just think they couldn't help but do that. Yet, scripture teaches that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18-21). Your doctrine gives them an excuse.

• "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

And Jesus does say their will is their own, so of course he does not deny free will, and neither does any Calvinist. But the issue ~ yet again ~ is what their will is and why they... use it... the way they do.

The Father gave Judas to Him and, yet, Judas was lost. That destroys everything you said here. You really need to rethink all of this. Take your Calvinist glasses off for once and look at all of this objectively and see what you discover.

He did. I mean you've said that over and over but never offered anything as any kind of "proof" that he did not. We are able to choose anything (which is kind of ridiculous to even have to say...), but yeah, sure. At issue is whether we will use our will one way or another, and why or why not. I've said it many times; see above.

Come on. Why are you so dishonest in the discussions about this topic? John Calvin and those who follow his teachings do not believe in free will as it relates to people freely having the choice to either repent and believe the gospel or to reject it. Free will implies that a person genuinely has the ability to choose to either accept or reject the gospel. Calvinists do not believe that all people have the ability to accept the gospel because Calvinists believe in total depravity and that repentance and faith are given to certain elect people by God while the rest have no ability to repent and accept the gospel. Calvinists do not believe in free will in the sense that I'm describing. That's a fact. Yet, you deny it, anyway. Wish I knew why you're not willing to be honest about this.

Not "creepy," but telling; actions speak louder than words.

It's telling that I took a little time to show evidence of what you had previously said just in case you had forgotten? What that should tell you is that I didn't want to argue with you about whether you had said that Judas was saved or not in the past in case you had forgotten what you had said. Nothing more.

 

[PinSeeker]

No. Salvation has nothing to do with lineages.

It does, if you speak of lineages in the right sense. We are all sons of Abraham. Through Isaac, the child of the promise, and in Christ.

The promise to restore a saved Israel remnant does.

Well, right, if you understand who Israel is (Jacob) and who all is of God's Israel (all those in Christ.).

As far as salvation goes. When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, He acknowledge their lineage. But that did not save them, they were still the children of hell.

That does not change the promise to saved Israel for the promised land. Not at all.

In it's lesser sense, it was what is was, yes. And in its greater sense, it is what it is.

The saved remnant of Israel actually is the relatively few Jewish survivors,

And Gentile believers are a goodly portion of them. True Jews of God.

Round and round we go...

who all decide to believe in the end.

"It..." (being one of God's elect, of His Israel) "...depends not on man's willing or working but on God, Who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:3-8)

Of course the ones saved now are fellow citizens. Why pretend I disagreed?

I never did. But yet you still say God's promises ~ at least some of them ~ are not for them.

The remnant that is saved in the end ALSO inherit the specific promised lands. Why pretend it is mutually exclusive?

Didn't do that, either...

Just as God will give the believing Israel in the end a new heart.

The new heart/spirit, given by God, comes first, dad. The will, and our believing, follows. Without fail.

Yes He chose to save us if we chose Jesus.

Disagree. Try to back that up with Scripture, dad. I mean I think I know what you'll say, but give it a try.

That plan was made before the world was. Therefore we are blameless before Him, (because of Jesus)

Well, when we are given to Jesus, yes. And for those who are appointed by God for such, as those who believed in Acts 13:48 were, they are then blameless, yes. Not without sin, of course, but redeemed.

We love Him because He first loved us.

LOL! Which is exactly what I said, but of course not an original saying of mine, but the apostle John... <smile>

Not because we had some special forced shove into heaven that the poor hell bound folks never get!

Ohhhh, goodness. Wow. I guess I knew that was coming sooner or later. I tried to head it off for the silliness that it is, but I mean... Arminians... <smile>

Funny I just quoted that too. Apparently you imagine that it means that He arranged that we choose Jesus like it or not?

No, don't imagine or think that. But I think you should broaden your view of what Godly love is, dad. It's not just a warm, fuzzy feeling, it's far more than that... <smile>

And you know that's the problem with the Arminian view, one of them, anyway. I mean it would sound repulsive to them, but from their point of view, the love of God is very small. Which is kind of the theme that runs throughout... their idea of all these things is, in effect, far too small.

(while damning most of the world who didn't get that arranged gift)

Only the willing get saved.

So man is more powerful than God. Man

Maybe we should erase the word whosoever that God used, and replace it with 'just the extra special ones who were the only ones who could ever possibly have gotten saved, while most are destined for hell fire'?

Maybe not. <smile> Yes, a lot of folks have trouble with 'whosoever.' But Joel 2:32 is what it is. Yes, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved... God will save them. But it depends on their receiving the call of God... or not. If they do, then they will call on the name of the Lord. And every single one of them will be saved.

He calls many. Few respond.

Agreed. He calls all, in that all are called to repentance... the general call of the Gospel goes out to all. But still... God has mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He has compassion. The inward call of God is issued only to God's elect... by His Spirit, and they are born again. Each at his appointed time. And then... he believes.

God calls us all to repentance. Whosoever will, let Him come!

Right, the general call of the Gospel. See above.

There is no new heart unless and until one comes to Jesus. Period. Take that to the bank

<smile> Even though until they are born again of the Spirit they are dead ~ dead ~ in their sin... "in which they (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience... children of wrath like the rest of mankind..." (Ephesians 2:1-3)... Yeah, no.

In other words only Jesus could pay the ransom. We could never pay it.

Of course.

Only believing in Jesus saves us when we come to Him.

And we believe and come to him because we are born again of the Spirit. Yet again:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:3-8)

Not our exertions.

Our belief, dad, is an exertion. Nothing, even our belief, merits salvation. Else, as Paul says, you make grace out to be something other than grace... unmerited favor.

Us, being those who came to Him. Not some pre selected people while everyone else can go to hell in a handbasket.

"...we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).

I mean, if you can offer any kind of alternative explanation of those verses, then give it a try. <smile> I'm warning you, though, I've asked many a person for that, and all I have ever gotten is... crickets. <smile> At any rate, God made us all, dad. Can He not do what he wants to do with any one of us? Does He not have a right over all His creation to do what He wants with it? These are the exact questions ~ rhetorical in nature ~ that Paul asks in Romans 9:19-24. Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? <shrug>

And on top of that, dad, we are all by nature children of wrath, dead in our sin. He would be perfectly just not to have mercy or compassion on anybody. But then there is grace. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠..."

Grace and peace to you, dad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The new heart/spirit, given by God, comes first, dad. The will, and our believing, follows. Without fail.

That is not what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that faith comes from hearing the word (the gospel) and accepting it, not from being given a new heart/spirit.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Calvinism interprets this passage to be saying that faith automatically occurs through hearing the word, but this says that not all of the Israelites who heard the word accepted it. So, faith does not automatically occur as a result of hearing the word. Only those who hear it and accept it have faith while those who hear it and reject it don't. So, Calvinism blatantly contradicts what is indicated in this passage. Since some accept the word that they hear and some reject it, this shows that people are required to choose whether to accept or reject what they hear. All people must willingly choose whether to believe the word/gospel that they hear or not. That is not something God does for us, as Calvinism falsely teaches.

 

[PinSeeker]

You have to be kidding me. How is it speculation that someone Jesus said would've been better off never having been born possibly saved? There's no need for speculation here.

All He said was, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." I think you're making an inference there that really cannot be made. But fair enough; it's not a hill to die on.

It's a clear statement that Judas was not saved.... The fact that Jesus said it would be better had Judas never been born shows that he did not become saved after that, either.

To you. I mean fair enough; it's not a hill to die on.

I recall telling you before that citing a verse like 1 John 2:19 that refers to those who were never saved in the first place is not a valid refutation of a verse that is clearly addressed to believers like Hebrews 3:12.

You don't believe 1 John 2:19... all of John's three letters... were addressed to believers? Surely you do; he refers to them collectively as 'we' and 'us' ~ thereby including himself ~ over and over again.

The two verses have different contexts.

They do not. If I remember correctly, you were hyper-focused on Hebrews 6:4-6, which says, "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt." And this is just after the writer of Hebrews has spoken specifically about falling away, and what leads them to do so: "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." The context is not different. And of the Hebrews 6 passage specifically, it is possible to "taste" the heavenly gift" and "share in the Holy Spirit" and "taste the goodness of the Word of God"... to know all about God and experience the benefits of knowing God by and through just being around and sharing fellowship with God's people (believers), but not to actually have the Holy Spirit. Again, as John says, if one is of God, and this of God's people, he or she will remain with God's people. We see people leaving the church today, and more than ever over the past two or three decades... most of them are not, and never were, believers, even though they may have thought they were for a time.

What do you think that means for Judas to have been given to Jesus and to be lost?

That He was never given to Jesus by the Father. I mean, Jesus does say, in John 10, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." Which... is directly consistent and correlative to what I said above about Hebrews 3 and 6.

Not only no record of that, but I think it's clear that someone who has repented of their sin would not then want to kill themselves.

I have a close relative who killed himself. I don't think he really wanted to. Depression and/or despair and/or guilt can do a lot to a person. We agree about the contrast between Peter and Judas; we can leave it at that, I think.

I am sure I do not think at all along the same lines as John Calvin did. You are quite mistaken.

<chuckles> You don't even know what John Calvin thought, so it seems impossible to make that assertion. <smile> But whatever...

Why was it their will to do their father's desires? You never address that.

I... really didn't think there was any need to do so... I mean it is what it is. But, okay, I'll answer it with what Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-3 (again, overlapping with my conversation with dad above): they were "dead in the trespasses and sins in which (they) walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience... (living) in the passions of (their) flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and by nature children of wrath..." Jesus Himself answers that question in John 8:... "You are of your father the devil..." I'm really surprised you would even ask that question.

You just think they couldn't help but do that.

They willingly did so. Jesus said so. "...your will is to do your father’s desires." So, "couldn't help it..." I mean, in a certain sense I guess you might say that. Again, your focus is on the will instead of what drives the will, the heart... what kind of spirit that person has. That really shouldn't be so hard to understand. But, denial is a thing, certainly...

Yet, scripture teaches that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18-21). Your doctrine gives them an excuse.

Only in your opinion. There is no excuse. What can be known about God has been clearly revealed to all.

The Father gave Judas to Him...

Judas again... <sigh> Disagree. Jesus says he loses not one of those the Father gives Him, but will raise him up on the last day. And that would include Judas... if the Father had actually given him to Jesus...

and, yet, Judas was lost.

Well... he was lost, for sure, but Jesus didn't lose him. See above. <smile> Which... is directly consistent and correlative to what I said above about John 10 and 1 John 2 above.

That destroys everything you said here. You really need to rethink all of this.

Right back atcha, SI.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Our belief, dad, is an exertion. Nothing, even our belief, merits salvation. Else, as Paul says, you make grace out to be something other than grace... unmerited favor.

Show me where scripture ever says that salvation does not require our faith and if it did, it would mean we could boast about it as something we did to merit salvation. There are scriptures which say that salvation is by God's grace and not by our works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but none that say it is not by God's grace and not by our faith.

"...we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).

I mean, if you can offer any kind of alternative explanation of those verses, then give it a try. <smile> I'm warning you, though, I've asked many a person for that, and all I have ever gotten is... crickets. <smile>

You obviously forget a lot of the discussions that you've had in the past. I have addressed those passages with you multiple times. Those passages are not talking about God having predestined certain individuals to salvation. No, those passages are talking about God having predestined for anyone who chooses to love Him and to believe in Christ that he or she would be conformed to the image of His Son. Scripture clearly teaches that God wants all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30, Ezekiel 18:24, Ezekiel 33:11) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:1-2), so you can't contradict that by thinking that God purposely made it so that not all people could repent and be saved, which would be the case if the decision on whether someone is saved or not is entirely God's alone.

At any rate, God made us all, dad. Can He not do what he wants to do with any one of us? Does He not have a right over all His creation to do what He wants with it? These are the exact questions ~ rhetorical in nature ~ that Paul asks in Romans 9:19-24. Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? <shrug>

And on top of that, dad, we are all by nature children of wrath, dead in our sin. He would be perfectly just not to have mercy or compassion on anybody. But then there is grace. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠..."

Calvinists are always only looking at part of the picture instead of the whole, big picture. Yes, God chooses who to have mercy on and no man can decide that for Him. Man's will has nothing to do with what God decides to do in terms of who He wants to have mercy on. That is God's decision alone. But, since God is love (1 John 4:8), it aligns with His character for Him to want to have mercy on all people, as Paul said He does in Romans 11:30-32. But, Calvinism contradicts Romans 11:30-32 by teaching that God only wants to have mercy on a certain elect group of people while He has no desire to have mercy on the rest and prefers that they end up in eternal torment instead.

Also, the Calvinist understanding of what it means to be dead in sins is clearly flawed. Paul taught that no one has any excuse to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and no one has any excuse to not glorify God and be thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21). That includes everyone who is dead in their sin. Being dead in sin does not mean someone is unable to repent of their sin and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Death is separation. When a person dies, their body separates from their soul and spirit. The second death is eternal separation from God (2 Thess 1:9). Being dead in sins means someone is separated from God and does not have a personal relationship with Him. It has nothing to do with what someone is capable of doing.

Jesus called sinners to repentance and did not say that He only calls some sinners to repentance. And He indicated that sinners are sick, not dead in the way Calvinists think they are.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Sick people are fully capable of acknowledging that they are sick and fully capable of admitting that they need a physician to heal them. All sinners are sick spiritually. Therefore, all sinners are fully capable of acknowledging that they are sinners and fully capable of admitting that they need the Great Physician, Jesus, to heal them spiritually.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is not what scripture teaches.

It is. I have quoted Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27 many, many times. It is what God Himself says, and applies both backward and forward from the time Ezekiel wrote it:

Scripture teaches that faith comes from hearing the word (the gospel) and accepting it,

Ah, not accepting it. You refer to Paul's words in Romans 10:17... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." There is nothing else there, SI. Nothing. When we hear, the Holy Spirit works through that and gives us the gift of faith (which is a give of the Spirit; 1 Corinthians 12:9), and is God's "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction..." by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts "...of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

not from being given a new heart/spirit.

Yet again... "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them" (Ezekiel 11:19-20)... "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

Calvinism interprets this passage to be saying that faith automatically occurs through hearing the word,...

Absolutely not. Faith does come by hearing, but not 100% of the time; many remain in their unbelief. God has mercy on those whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He has compassion. Or maybe this is clearer: it is God Who, in the wonderful words of Isaiah in chapter 35 of his prophecy, opens the eyes of the blind, unstops the ears of the deaf, enables the lame man to leap like a deer and the mute tongue to sing for joy. Causes waters to break forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert. I so love Isaiah 35... maybe my favorite passage in the Bible. One of them, anyway.

but this says that not all of the Israelites who heard the word accepted it.

Right; see above. Another wrong idea about Calvinism... <smile> Yeah, only the ones appointed to eternal life, just as those in Acts 13:48.

So, faith does not automatically occur as a result of hearing the word. Only those who hear it and accept it have faith while those who hear it and reject it don't.

Right. But then also, why do they accept it or reject it? I already sufficiently answered that question. I'll just quote God in Isaiah 55:10-11 (again) here: "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

So, Calvinism blatantly contradicts what is indicated in this passage.

Not at all. Again, just erroneous perceptions. But... this is what Arminians do.

...required to choose whether to accept or reject what they hear.

Well, I'm not sure about "required," but they will do one or the other, yes.

All people must willingly choose whether to believe the word/gospel that they hear or not.

Right, and if they are then of God, then... their will will be to do the will of their Father God, and... they will believe. Right.

That is not something God does for us...

Right. Absolutely not.

...as Calvinism falsely teaches.

Nope. See above. But round and round we go. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All He said was, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." I think you're making an inference there that really cannot be made. But fair enough; it's not a hill to die on.

Explain to me how it would be better for a saved person to not have been born? Not being born is obviously not better than salvation.

You don't believe 1 John 2:19... all of John's three letters... were addressed to believers? Surely you do; he refers to them collectively as 'we' and 'us' ~ thereby including himself ~ over and over again.

That's an irrelevant question. Are you even trying to see my point? Again, 1 John 2:19 refers to people who were never saved as leaving John's circle of believers. It is not a verse addressing believers and warning them about being deceived and turning away from God, so it has a different context than Hebrews 3:12. In Hebrews 3:12, it is a warning given only to believers about developing an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. How can someone depart from God if they don't belong to God in the first place?

You apparently think that Hebrews 3:12 is a warning that is not given to believers, but instead unbelievers. That is clearly not the case. The "brethren" are being addressed there. Same people as the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" addressed in Hebrews 3:1. Hebrews 3:12-14 is clearly a warning given to believers, but you deny that.

That He was never given to Jesus by the Father. I mean, Jesus does say, in John 10, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." Which... is directly consistent and correlative to what I said above about Hebrews 3 and 6.

You are obviously not reading John 17:12 carefully at all. Please try to look at the verse objectively if you can.

John 17:12 (ESV): While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus was talking about all twelve disciples here when He said "While I was with them, I kept them in our name, which you have given me". Each reference to "them" in this verse refers to all twelve disciples, including Judas Iscariot. Only doctrinal bias can keep someone from seeing that. Jesus guarded them (the twelve disciples including Judas) and not one of them (the twelve disciples including Judas) had been lost except the son of destruction, which we know was Judas. If Judas was not one of "them" then how could one of "them" have been lost? No, he clearly was the only one of them (the twelve disciples who the Father gave to Jesus) who was lost. So, you are absolutely wrong to say that Judas was never given to Jesus by the Father. Just as wrong as you were when you thought Judas was saved even after betraying Jesus and after killing himself.

I have a close relative who killed himself. I don't think he really wanted to. Depression and/or despair and/or guilt can do a lot to a person. We agree about the contrast between Peter and Judas; we can leave it at that, I think.

I am not saying that all people who kill themselves are not saved. It depends on the circumstances and their mental state and how much control they have over themselves and such. But, in Judas's case, I think he had full control of his mind and decisions and he decided to kill himself rather than repent of his sins and continue living as a forgiven follower of Christ.

<chuckles> You don't even know what John Calvin thought, so it seems impossible to make that assertion. <smile> But whatever...

<chuckles> How would you know if I know what he taught or not? You don't. But, I do. And he did not teach what I believe in relation to salvation, that's for sure.

I... really didn't think there was any need to do so... I mean it is what it is. But, okay, I'll answer it with what Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-3 (again, overlapping with my conversation with dad above): they were "dead in the trespasses and sins in which (they) walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience... (living) in the passions of (their) flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and by nature children of wrath..." Jesus Himself answers that question in John 8:... "You are of your father the devil..." I'm really surprised you would even ask that question.

I'm not surprised that your answer did not really answer the question. Your answer doesn't address how it came to be that they became children of the devil. You think they were just born that way and were destined to be children of the devil or did they choose to follow "the prince of the power of the air" rather than Christ? Do you think people have no choice in the matter of who they want to serve? If so, tell that to Joshua whenever you see him (Joshua 24:14-15).

They willingly did so. Jesus said so. "...your will is to do your father’s desires." So, "couldn't help it..."

Couldn't help it? How do you come to that conclusion? Why did Jesus get so angry at them and call them hypocrites and a brood of vipers and such if they "couldn't help it" but to be that way? That makes no sense. And it contradicts what Jesus said here...

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate.

It isn't that Jesus did not desire for them to repent and follow Him. It was that they "were not willing!". Calvinism says they couldn't help but to not be willing, but that contradicts the fact that Jesus wanted them to be willing. As if He wanted them to be willing even though they couldn't be willing? No, of course not. That's nonsense. He knew they were capable of being willing to repent and follow Him, but they chose not to and that's why He was so angry at them, as we can see in Matthew 23.

Only in your opinion. There is no excuse. What can be known about God has been clearly revealed to all.

So, what do you think is the reason that some people suppress the truth in unrighteousness while not glorifying God and being thankful to Him, keeping in mind that no one has any excuse for that?

Judas again... <sigh> Disagree. Jesus says he loses not one of those the Father gives Him, but will raise him up on the last day. And that would include Judas... if the Father had actually given him to Jesus...

He said in John 17:12 that He didn't lose any of those the Father gave Him EXCEPT for the son of perdition/destruction, which was Judas. As I showed earlier, to not include Judas among "them" that Jesus referenced in that verse is a clear case of blatantly denying what Jesus indicated in that verse. You are ignoring the exception that Jesus made to the general rule.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is. I have quoted Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27 many, many times. It is what God Himself says, and applies both backward and forward from the time Ezekiel wrote it:

Ah, not accepting it. You refer to Paul's words in Romans 10:17... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." There is nothing else there, SI. Nothing. When we hear, the Holy Spirit works through that and gives us the gift of faith (which is a give of the Spirit; 1 Corinthians 12:9), and is God's "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction..." by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts "...of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

You are completely ignoring my arguments and not addressing them. Are you afraid to actually address them? You're clearly willing to change your mind about some things like you did about Judas being saved, so why are you so closed minded about this? Look at the context of Romans 10:17. Paul clearly indicated that some who heard did not accept what they heard. This is undeniable. But, here you are acting as if hearing automatically results in faith. That is not at all what Paul said! Just look at the context...

Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Follow along with what Paul is saying here. First, he asks how anyone can believe in Christ without first hearing about Him. A very valid question. Makes sense, right? Then he points out that "they have not all obeyed the gospel". According to Calvinism, that would mean it's because they didn't hear it because hearing it results in a person having faith. But, Paul asked "have they not heard?". Calvinists would say "Of course they didn't or else they would have believed". But, Paul said "Indeed they have" heard it.

How do you, as a Calvinist, explain people hearing the gospel but not obeying and accepting it? Paul said "faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ". Since not all who hear the gospel believe it, how exactly do you think "faith comes from hearing" the gospel? It should be clear. Without hearing the gospel, people cannot have faith in Christ because, as Paul asked "and how are they to believe in him whom they have never heard?". Of course, they have to hear about Him in order to believe in Him. So, faith coming by hearing simply means that someone needs to hear the gospel before they can have faith in Christ. But, hearing the gospel does not automatically result in faith. People must willingly choose to believe the gospel in order to have faith in Christ. Everyone who hears the gospel must choose to either accept or reject it. Please address what I said here instead of ignoring it and just repeating your normal Calvinist spiel.

Yet again... "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them" (Ezekiel 11:19-20)... "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

Where does any of that say that He does that before someone repents and puts their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior? Nowhere. He does that after someone repents and puts their faith in Christ in order to give them the ability to follow Christ. When someone initially repents and puts their faith in Christ they are acknowledging that they are sinners who are falling short of being who God wants them to be and indicating that they want to change. But, of course, only God can give them the power to actually change. Salvation is not dependent on how well someone walks in God's statutes and obeys His rules. It's based on repentance and faith. Submission to God/Christ. It never says that someone needs a new heart in order to acknowledge their sins and express a desire to follow Christ. We need a new heart in order to be able to follow and obey Christ in the way He wants us to. That comes after we become saved when we do the good works God prepares for those who are saved (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Absolutely not. Faith does come by hearing, but not 100% of the time; many remain in their unbelief.

You don't even know what Calvinists typically believe. Most Calvinists would say that the hearing of the word automatically results in faith and those who don't have faith don't hear it. They're not saying they don't literally hear it with their physical ears, but they don't hear it spiritually. So, I'm addressing what Calvinists typically believe. If you disagree with some of what Calvinists typically believe, then fine.

God has mercy on those whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He has compassion.

Yes, but that is only part of the story. Calvinists never look at the whole story. Another part of the story is that God wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). So, how do you reconcile these two things? Do you even try to reconcile these two things?

Or maybe this is clearer: it is God Who, in the wonderful words of Isaiah in chapter 35 of his prophecy, opens the eyes of the blind, unstops the ears of the deaf, enables the lame man to leap like a deer and the mute tongue to sing for joy. Causes waters to break forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert. I so love Isaiah 35... maybe my favorite passage in the Bible. One of them, anyway.

Yes, He does those things. He also graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11), which was made possible by the sacrifice of His Son for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2).

Right; see above. Another wrong idea about Calvinism... <smile> Yeah, only the ones appointed to eternal life, just as those in Acts 13:48.

Ah, yes. Acts 13:48. One of many verses that Calvinists take out of context. It does not say those Gentiles were appointed to believe unto eternal life, as Calvinists imagine, it just says they were appointed to eternal life and points out that they believed. And eternal life obviously is only for those who believe (John 3:16).

If you read a couple verses earlier it talks about the unbelieving Jews judging themselves unworthy of eternal life. What do Calvinists do with that verse? Calvinism teaches that God alone judges people to be unworthy of eternal life. But, Acts 13:46 says those unbelieving Jews judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life, clearly showing that eternal life depended on their decision to accept God's gracious offer of eternal life or not. It was not dependent on God's choice of whether they were worthy of eternal life or not, it was dependent on their choice that God requires all people to make.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right. But then also, why do they accept it or reject it? I already sufficiently answered that question.

You did not. At all. Not even close. You think some naturally reject the gospel and had no ability to accept it since only God could give that to them. This would include those who have no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21). You have never sufficiently addressed how it can be that those who have no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness have an excuse for rejecting the gospel truth, with the excuse being that they had no ability to accept it.

I'll just quote God in Isaiah 55:10-11 (again) here: "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

What exactly is your point here? We've already established that His word can be rejected, as evidenced by what Paul wrote in Romans 10:14-18. Yet, it seems like you're trying to use this passage to show that it can't be rejected? If not, then what is the reason you quoted this passage exactly?

Not at all. Again, just erroneous perceptions. But... this is what Arminians do.

Nope. What Calvinists do is deny the implications of their beliefs when they are exposed. You do that over and over again.

Well, I'm not sure about "required," but they will do one or the other, yes.

Why aren't you sure about "required"? God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). It is required for people to choose whether to do so or not.

Right, and if they are then of God, then... their will will be to do the will of their Father God, and... they will believe. Right.

This was your response to me saying "All people must willingly choose whether to believe the word/gospel that they hear or not.". Do you really think that everyone is genuinely capable of either accepting or rejecting the gospel? Because that's what I'm saying. Every person is capable of choosing to either accept or reject the gospel and God requires everyone to make that choice. I don't think you would agree with that because you believe the choice of whether someone will accept or reject the gospel is ultimately God's choice and not ours.

Right. Absolutely not.

Why do you continue saying things that contradict what you believe? You said this in response to me saying that God does not choose for us whether we accept or reject the gospel. How can you agree with that when you believe that the choice of whether someone accepts or rejects the gospel is God's choice because of your understanding of what predestination is about? You don't believe that we choose to accept or reject the gospel in our own volition, you believe that God chose whether we would accept or reject it before the foundation of the world. Why would you pretend to agree with me about something that you clearly do not agree with me about? Can you just be honest in this discussion? Is that too much to ask?

 

[dad]

It does, if you speak of lineages in the right sense. We are all sons of Abraham. Through Isaac, the child of the promise, and in Christ.

No. Never. Being a son of Abraham by faith has nothing to do with pedigree

Well, right, if you understand who Israel is (Jacob) and who all is of God's Israel (all those in Christ.).

What was the verse that said Israel is everyone? I must have missed that.

In it's lesser sense, it was what is was, yes. And in its greater sense, it is what it is.

The promised land is still what it was. When Jesus talks to us He makes it clear it is a city He prepared in heaven, not the promised land on earth. For the remnant He also made it clear it will be the promised land on earth

And Gentile believers are a goodly portion of them. True Jews of God.

Not of the Israel who is mostly killed and who finally all get saved. Separate deal.

"It..." (being one of God's elect, of His Israel) "...depends not on man's willing or working but on God, Who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:3-8)

Everything about salvation depends on God, and not what we do. Salvation that only comes after we decide to come to Him.

I never did. But yet you still say God's promises ~ at least some of them ~ are not for them.

Some of the promises are for saved Israel in the end. Not sure which promises you claim are not for (whoever you are talking about)

The new heart/spirit, given by God, comes first, dad. The will, and our believing, follows. Without fail.

No. He that works in us makes us new. We do not make ourselves new first. Nor do we get born again before we are born again.

Disagree. Try to back that up with Scripture, dad. I mean I think I know what you'll say, but give it a try.

Ask a specific question

Well, when we are given to Jesus, yes. And for those who are appointed by God for such, as those who believed in Acts 13:48 were, they are then blameless, yes. Not without sin, of course, but redeemed.

Name me one nation or race or group or whatever that you claim is not able to be saved? Who is not 'appointed' for possible salvation?

Ohhhh, goodness. Wow. I guess I knew that was coming sooner or later. I tried to head it off for the silliness that it is, but I mean... Arminians... <smile>

That is your Scripture case against it then?

No, don't imagine or think that. But I think you should broaden your view of what Godly love is, dad. It's not just a warm, fuzzy feeling, it's far more than that... <smile>

Such as..? You seem to be peddling the idea that His selective respecter of persons love is only for some privileged minority, unlike the majority of mankind?

And you know that's the problem with the Arminian view, one of them, anyway. I mean it would sound repulsive to them, but from their point of view, the love of God is very small. Which is kind of the theme that runs throughout... their idea of all these things is, in effect, far too small.

? No idea what you are trying to say. Apparently it might be that you think that if God allows choice, then He is small?

So man is more powerful than God. Man

Accepting a free gift from Him does not make us 'more powerful than God' You seem to have no real argument or case.

Maybe not. <smile> Yes, a lot of folks have trouble with 'whosoever.' But Joel 2:32 is what it is. Yes, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved... God will save them. But it depends on their receiving the call of God... or not.

You inserted that bit. The call of God is out there, but we have to hear it/accept it. It is some presto chango sneaky magic call that only some select few get, while the rest of mankind is doomed to hell

If they do, then they will call on the name of the Lord. And every single one of them will be saved.

Yes, and..?

Agreed. He calls all, in that all are called to repentance... the general call of the Gospel goes out to all. But still... God has mercy on whom He has mercy,

And that 'whom' is precisely those that choose Him! THAT is whom He chooses to have mercy on!

compassion on whom He has compassion. The inward call of God is issued only to God's elect... by His Spirit, and they are born again. Each at his appointed time. And then... he believes.

He will have compassion on all that ask and receive. That is whom He has compassion on

Right, the general call of the Gospel. See above.
A general call some obey. Not some sneaky call that only goes out to some few special folks.