PAUL IS AN APOSTLE, BUT TO WHO?

[Fred J]

Those verses teach that Matthew has authority over Paul to teach salvation to the audience of Paul ?
Try again FJ :)

They were already, Matthew and the 11's 'audiences', even orally discipled already to their Gospel of Christ, 4-5 years before Paul started his Gospel of Christ's ministry, period

It is 'nonsense' that the Gospel of Christ to Paul must come 'in conflict' with the initial Gospel of Christ given to the 12.

When the 12 already ministered, witnessed and discipled the Jews and Gentiles of all nations they were able to reach, their given Gospel of Christ.

From the day of Pentecost we have accounts believers added to the faith in big numbers, and forth would be more.

Then after 5 years, Paul comes ministers, witnesses and disciples a new Gospel of Christ to the Gentile believers and apparently divides the 'body of Christ' into two.

But this makes 'sense' to dear 'rvmb' and persevering to 'rub it in' that Paul's Gospel is only for the Gentiles.

It only makes 'common sense' that they must come in 'union' by context, for also the already established 'body of Christ', by their 'fruit' united.

That Paul brought Christ's Gospel, an 'additional revelation' to put into context with 12's initial given Gospel, for the established body of Christ and all nations.

The end.

 

[rvmb]

They were already, Matthew and the 11's 'audiences', even orally discipled already to their Gospel of Christ, 4-5 years before Paul started his Gospel of Christ's ministry, period

It is 'nonsense' that the Gospel of Christ to Paul must come 'in conflict' with the initial Gospel of Christ given to the 12.

When the 12 already ministered, witnessed and discipled the Jews and Gentiles of all nations they were able to reach, their given Gospel of Christ.

From the day of Pentecost we have accounts believers added to the faith in big numbers, and forth would be more.

Then after 5 years, Paul comes ministers, witnesses and disciples a new Gospel of Christ to the Gentile believers and apparently divides the 'body of Christ' into two.

But this makes 'sense' to dear 'rvmb' and persevering to 'rub it in' that Paul's Gospel is only for the Gentiles.

It only makes 'common sense' that they must come in 'union' by context for also the already established 'body of Christ' by 'fruit' united.

That Paul brought Christ's Gospel, an 'additional revelation' to put into context with 12's initial given Gospel, for the established body of Christ and all nations.

The end.

Prove your opinions with Scripture.
List the verses that prove Matthew has authority over Paul to Paul's audience.

 

[LoveYeshua]

[1 Corinthians 9:1 KJV] "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?"..........Paul was made an apostle. Paul saw the risen Christ.............[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."..........Judas's death necessitated a replacement to make twelve apostles. This verse details the requirements that had to be met to be an apostle with the other eleven disciples. Paul could be an apostle because he met the stipulation to have seen the risen Lord. Paul however, didn't meet the requirement to have been with Jesus from the beginning of John's baptism and therefore was not able to be ordained as a witness to the resurrection along with the apostles. This answers those that say the apostles picked the wrong replacement, which they say should have been Paul. It also precludes there being just one church; Paul could not be an apostle along with the twelve to oversee the same church body. Peter's apostleship was to the Jews, but Paul was not an apostle alongside Peter, Paul's apostleship was to the Gentiles........[Galatians 2:8 KJV] "(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)"

finally seeing the truth. more in revelations, the new Jerusalem 12 gates ,12 foundations, who's name will be on them? paul's ?

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

No as you said he does not meet the requirements like I explained to you and that you finally see. also Judas replacement was made by God according to acts. However Paul did proclaim the name of Christ and the cross to the gentiles as written.

But you still make this same mistake about Peter being the apostle to the jews only;

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.





Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[Doug]

No as you said he does not meet the requirements like I explained to you and that you finally see.

what do I see?

But you still make this same mistake about Peter being the apostle to the jews only;

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

This is about Acts 10 Peter was preaching to Israel and Gentiles in attendence believed and became part of the kingdom church remnant

 

[Fred J]

finally seeing the truth. more in revelations, the new Jerusalem 12 gates ,12 foundations, who's name will be on them? paul's ?

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

No as you said he does not meet the requirements like I explained to you and that you finally see. also Judas replacement was made by God according to acts. However Paul did proclaim the name of Christ and the cross to the gentiles as written.

But you still make this same mistake about Peter being the apostle to the jews only;

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.





Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Thank GOD in Jesus name that someone from the staff member in the body of Christ have paid attention to Dough's dilemma.

Like someone drunk with wine, neither here nor there but all over scripture making up one's 'twisted' version of the Gospel.

Nevertheless certain part of the Gospel he did get it right, also gaining on things we've shared, and have commended him for it, but he need to get 'sharper' in regards context.

A 'tough cookie to crack' and at times one can drive us up the wall, but all things are possible for GOD in Jesus name, and may 'Dough' receive wisdom from above.

Keep up the good work for the Kingdom of GOD and defend the word of GOD that is intact and as it is written, and the sound doctrine in context.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Thank GOD in Jesus name that someone from the staff member in the body of Christ have paid attention to Dough's dilemma.

Like someone drunk with wine, neither here nor there but all over scripture making up one's 'twisted' version of the Gospel.

Nevertheless certain part of the Gospel he did get it right, also gaining on things we've shared, and have commended him for it, but he need to get 'sharper' in regards context.

A 'tough cookie to crack' and at times one can drive us up the wall, but all things are possible for GOD in Jesus name, and may 'Dough' receive wisdom from above.

Keep up the good work for the Kingdom of GOD and defend the word of GOD that is intact and as it is written, and the sound doctrine in context.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ.

Doug if following false doctrine but he is making progress, he seems interested in the words of Jesus and asks a lot of questions, unfortunately he seems to think all Jesus did and said is for Israel only. that is his main issue right now, if we could help him with this and make him understand Jesus message is for all i think it would help him greatly.

Blessings Fred

 

[Fred J]

Doug if following false doctrine but he is making progress, he seems interested in the words of Jesus and asks a lot of questions, unfortunately he seems to think all Jesus did and said is for Israel only. that is his main issue right now, if we could help him with this and make him understand Jesus message is for all i think it would help him greatly.

Blessings Fred

You're right.

'Dough', sometimes surprises me with one's progress or saddens me one's lacking, and am in a high and low momentum, sometimes lose my composure.

So you've taken up the challenge, perceive, witnessing and moderating our discussion surely a plus point.

Thank you and may GOD bless you all in Jesus name.

 

[rvmb]

You're right.

'Dough', sometimes surprises me with one's progress or saddens me one's lacking, and am in a high and low momentum, sometimes lose my composure.

So you've taken up the challenge, perceive, witnessing and moderating our discussion surely a plus point.

Thank you and may GOD bless you all in Jesus name.

Hopefully this will help fix your ignorance :-
...

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

 

[LoveYeshua]

You're right.

'Dough', sometimes surprises me with one's progress or saddens me one's lacking, and am in a high and low momentum, sometimes lose my composure.

So you've taken up the challenge, perceive, witnessing and moderating our discussion surely a plus point.

Thank you and may GOD bless you all in Jesus name.

May the Lord Bless you as well, I will try and watch on him but like you mentioned it is a difficult task but my hope is that he will one day see the light.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Hopefully this will help fix your ignorance :-
...

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

View attachment 82116

So now a commentary from someone on the web supersedes common sense, do you not see the blatant multiple errors in the text are you blind??

 

[rvmb]

So now a commentary from someone on the web supersedes common sense, do you not see the blatant multiple errors in the text are you blind??

List the blatant errors one at a time for discussion LY

 

[LoveYeshua]

@rvmb
There are several serious problems in that text. Some are small, but many go against what Jesus and His first disciples clearly taught. Let’s walk through it in a simple way and correct it with Scripture.
First, the idea that Jesus made “twelve perfectly good apostles” and then needed a different kind of thirteenth is misleading.

Jesus chose twelve for a reason, tied to the twelve tribes of Israel:

• Matthew 19:28 (ASV)
  “ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

After Judas fell, the apostles did not wait for Paul. They replaced Judas with Matthias in Acts 1, restoring the number to twelve. This shows the group was meant to remain twelve, not become thirteen of a different kind.

Second, the claim that Paul had little contact with the apostles and therefore taught something separate is used in a wrong way.

Yes, Paul says he did not learn from men (Galatians 1), but later he did meet and confirm unity with them:

• Acts 15 shows the apostles and elders coming together in agreement
• Galatians 2:9 shows James, Peter, and John giving Paul fellowship

So Paul was not independent in doctrine. He was examined and recognized.

Third, the idea that God’s plan with Israel “failed” in Acts 7 is not true.

The rejection of prophets was already known long before:

• Isaiah 53 speaks of the Messiah being rejected
• Psalm 118 22 says the stone would be rejected

And Jesus Himself foretold it:

• Matthew 21:42
  “The stone which the builders rejected…”

So Acts 7 is not a surprise or a change of plan. It is part of what was already foretold.

Fourth, the claim that the “age of grace” began with Paul is not supported by Jesus.

Jesus already preached grace, repentance, and salvation before Paul ever appears:

• Luke 24:47
  “repentance and remission of sins should be preached… unto all the nations”
• John 10:16
  “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold”

Jesus Himself already included the nations. This did not begin with Paul.

Fifth, the idea that Paul received doctrines unknown to the Twelve is exaggerated and misleading.

What Paul calls “mystery” does not mean a brand-new message different from Jesus. It means something hidden before, now revealed more clearly.

But the core message was already there:

• Love, obedience, salvation, and inclusion of Gentiles were already taught by Jesus
• Peter also understood Gentiles were accepted:

Acts 10:34–35
“God is no respecter of persons… in every nation…”

This came directly by revelation to Peter, not from Paul.

Sixth, the claim that the Twelve knew nothing about the Church is false.

Jesus Himself spoke of it:

• Matthew 16:18
  “I will build my church”

And the disciples were part of it from the beginning in Acts 2. The Church did not start with Paul.

Seventh, the claim that only Paul speaks of the “body” idea is misleading.

Even if the exact phrase “body of Christ” is used by Paul, the idea of unity is already taught by Jesus:

• John 17:21
  “that they may all be one”

The teaching is the same, even if the wording is different.

Eighth, saying God commands us to follow Paul instead of Peter, James, or John is a serious distortion.

Paul himself said:

• 1 Corinthians 11:1
  “Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.”

He points back to Christ, not to himself as a separate authority.

And Peter warns about misunderstanding Paul:

• 2 Peter 3:16
  “which the ignorant… wrest, as they do also the other scriptures”

Peter does not say Paul teaches a different doctrine. He warns people not to twist his words.

Ninth, the idea that we must build our faith mainly on Paul instead of Jesus is directly against Jesus’ own words:

• John 12:48
  “the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day”
• Matthew 7:24
  “every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them…”

Jesus never told us to shift our foundation to another man.

​

Paul was truly called by God and sent to the Gentiles just like Peter was also called to go to the gentiles (Acts 15:7). But he did not bring a new or separate message. He continued what Jesus had already begun. The foundation remains Jesus and His words. The apostles were united, not divided into different systems.

The error in that text is that it separates Paul from Jesus and the Twelve, when Scripture shows they all serve the same truth, with Jesus as the head.

 

[rvmb]

@rvmb
There are several serious problems in that text. Some are small, but many go against what Jesus and His first disciples clearly taught. Let’s walk through it in a simple way and correct it with Scripture.
First, the idea that Jesus made “twelve perfectly good apostles” and then needed a different kind of thirteenth is misleading.

Jesus chose twelve for a reason, tied to the twelve tribes of Israel:

• Matthew 19:28 (ASV)
  “ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

After Judas fell, the apostles did not wait for Paul. They replaced Judas with Matthias in Acts 1, restoring the number to twelve. This shows the group was meant to remain twelve, not become thirteen of a different kind.

Second, the claim that Paul had little contact with the apostles and therefore taught something separate is used in a wrong way.

Yes, Paul says he did not learn from men (Galatians 1), but later he did meet and confirm unity with them:

• Acts 15 shows the apostles and elders coming together in agreement
• Galatians 2:9 shows James, Peter, and John giving Paul fellowship

So Paul was not independent in doctrine. He was examined and recognized.

Third, the idea that God’s plan with Israel “failed” in Acts 7 is not true.

The rejection of prophets was already known long before:

• Isaiah 53 speaks of the Messiah being rejected
• Psalm 118 22 says the stone would be rejected

And Jesus Himself foretold it:

• Matthew 21:42
  “The stone which the builders rejected…”

So Acts 7 is not a surprise or a change of plan. It is part of what was already foretold.

Fourth, the claim that the “age of grace” began with Paul is not supported by Jesus.

Jesus already preached grace, repentance, and salvation before Paul ever appears:

• Luke 24:47
  “repentance and remission of sins should be preached… unto all the nations”
• John 10:16
  “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold”

Jesus Himself already included the nations. This did not begin with Paul.

Fifth, the idea that Paul received doctrines unknown to the Twelve is exaggerated and misleading.

What Paul calls “mystery” does not mean a brand-new message different from Jesus. It means something hidden before, now revealed more clearly.

But the core message was already there:

• Love, obedience, salvation, and inclusion of Gentiles were already taught by Jesus
• Peter also understood Gentiles were accepted:

Acts 10:34–35
“God is no respecter of persons… in every nation…”

This came directly by revelation to Peter, not from Paul.

Sixth, the claim that the Twelve knew nothing about the Church is false.

Jesus Himself spoke of it:

• Matthew 16:18
  “I will build my church”

And the disciples were part of it from the beginning in Acts 2. The Church did not start with Paul.

Seventh, the claim that only Paul speaks of the “body” idea is misleading.

Even if the exact phrase “body of Christ” is used by Paul, the idea of unity is already taught by Jesus:

• John 17:21
  “that they may all be one”

The teaching is the same, even if the wording is different.

Eighth, saying God commands us to follow Paul instead of Peter, James, or John is a serious distortion.

Paul himself said:

• 1 Corinthians 11:1
  “Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.”

He points back to Christ, not to himself as a separate authority.

And Peter warns about misunderstanding Paul:

• 2 Peter 3:16
  “which the ignorant… wrest, as they do also the other scriptures”

Peter does not say Paul teaches a different doctrine. He warns people not to twist his words.

Ninth, the idea that we must build our faith mainly on Paul instead of Jesus is directly against Jesus’ own words:

• John 12:48
  “the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day”
• Matthew 7:24
  “every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them…”

Jesus never told us to shift our foundation to another man.

​

Paul was truly called by God and sent to the Gentiles just like Peter was also called to go to the gentiles (Acts 15:7). But he did not bring a new or separate message. He continued what Jesus had already begun. The foundation remains Jesus and His words. The apostles were united, not divided into different systems.

The error in that text is that it separates Paul from Jesus and the Twelve, when Scripture shows they all serve the same truth, with Jesus as the head.

The request was for >>> ""List the blatant errors one at a time for discussion LY
Is a simple request too difficult for you ?

 

[rvmb]

Acts 9:15 ... for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Rom 11:13 .. I am the apostle of the Gentiles,..
Rom 15:16 .. the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, ...
Gal 1:11-12 .. that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man... but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:--
6... for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7... the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, ...
9.. that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Pretty simple to understand so you have HAVE TO BE pretty stupid not to understand who Paul is Apostle & Minister to

 

[LoveYeshua]

The request was for >>> ""List the blatant errors one at a time for discussion LY
Is a simple request too difficult for you ?

they are numbered you can discuss them one at a time just gave you a preview of what is co come..sorry if this was too hard for you.

 

[rvmb]

they are numbered you can discuss them one at a time just gave you a preview of what is co come..sorry if this was too hard for you.

>>>>>>>""sorry if this was too hard for you.
Here is who Paul is Apostle to :-
Read, weep & get over yourself
************
Acts 9:15 ... for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Rom 11:13 .. I am the apostle of the Gentiles,..
Rom 15:16 .. the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, ...
Gal 1:11-12 .. that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man... but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:--
6... for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7... the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, ...
9.. that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Pretty simple to understand so you have HAVE TO BE pretty stupid not to understand who Paul is Apostle & Minister to

 

[LoveYeshua]

Paul was not in unity with their kingdom church or their gospel
Paul meet with them to give them knowledge of his gospel
Peter and the apostles recognized the grace given Paul and acknowledged his apostleship to the Gentiles
Peter and the apostles agreed to just go to Jews

false pater and the apostels weng to the gentiles before paul I gave you the sctiotute but this is not important who went forst but that thel all did go to the gentiles as Jesus asked them to in the great commission Jesus spoke about, You cannot deny this.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Jesus gave Paul the gospel of Grace. Faith in Christ and his redemption alone, without the law, without works, apart from having to go thru Israel for salvation

this ids the truth of scrioture Doug;

The verse is:

Acts 9:15 (ASV)
“But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel.”

Here Jesus is speaking to Ananias about Paul the Apostle. He says Paul will carry His name to Gentiles, kings, and also Israel.

Now, when we compare this with what Jesus told the twelve apostles, we see both a connection and a difference.

Jesus’ command to the twelve is:

Matthew 28:19–20 (ASV)
“Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations… teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you…”

And also:

Acts 1:8 (ASV)
“…ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

This was given directly by Jesus Christ to the twelve.

Here is the simple difference:

Jesus personally commanded the twelve to go to all nations and to teach everything He had already taught them. They were the foundation, the eyewitnesses, the ones who walked with Him.

With Paul, Jesus does not give a new teaching or a new message. He says Paul will carry His name to certain groups, especially the Gentiles and even kings. Paul is described as a chosen vessel, not as part of the original twelve.

So the mission overlaps, but the role is different:

• The twelve were directly taught by Jesus and sent to teach His commandments to all nations.
• Paul was later chosen to bring that same name of Jesus to places and people where it had not yet reached, especially among the Gentiles.

Also notice something important: in the Great Commission, the focus is teaching what Jesus commanded. In Acts 9:15, the focus about Paul is bearing the name of Jesus.

So Paul’s role is more like a messenger sent outward, while the twelve are the original witnesses who carry the full teaching they received from Jesus.

This helps keep things in order. Everything must still be measured by what Jesus Himself taught His first disciples.

 

[LoveYeshua]

In the body there is neither Jew or Greek which was not the case before Paul. Peter reisted going to Cornelius and calling the Gentiles acceptable

it was the case before Paul I showed you some time ago verses fronm the O.T. that explain this

 

[LoveYeshua]

Jesus gave us our faith/doctrine/instructions/commandments by Paul

NO! by what is written in Matthew, John, Luke, and Mark, if you remove these 4 books you would not know what Jesus asked ALL believers to do. jesus instructions are in there 4 books!! you would know that Jesus words are eternal life, just try and remove them and see what you will be left with.... try it really.