Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?
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soberxp
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In Exodus and Deuteronomy, does God destroy enemies who obstruct His redemptive plan for the sake of that plan, or does He destroy people for the sake of Israel’s enemies? Please give your reasoned analysis.
This is a very profound and important theological question. The key to understanding God’s actions in *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy* lies in recognizing that the two options are not mutually exclusive—they form a complete relationship of **purpose and means**.
Simply put, **God’s central purpose is to accomplish His redemptive plan, and destroying those who are theologically defined as “enemies obstructing that plan” is the necessary and just way to achieve that purpose.**
Below is a reasonable analysis from several levels.
### 1. Primary Motivation: The Accomplishment of the Redemptive Plan
From the beginning of *Exodus*, when God reveals Himself to Moses, He makes it clear that His purpose is first and foremost “redemption”:
- **He hears their suffering:** “I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:8)
- **He will be their God:** The entire exodus event is not merely about liberation from slavery but about covenant relationship. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians… Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples.” (Exodus 19:4–5)
This shows that God’s ultimate purpose is to establish a kingdom of priests belonging to Him, through whom He will bless all nations. **The redemptive plan is the absolute “first cause.”**
### 2. Destroying Enemies: As “Clearing the Obstacles” to Redemption
In the advancement of the redemptive plan, two main “obstructers” appear. God’s dealings with them reveal the interweaving of **justice and redemption**.
#### A. Regarding Egypt: A Dual Act of Judgment and Deliverance
In *Exodus*, God does not destroy Egypt as soon as Israel suffers. The narrative unfolds as a **progressive confrontation**.
- **Pharaoh’s role:** Scripture repeatedly states both that “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” and that Pharaoh “hardened his own heart.” Narratively, this is a form of “juridical hardening”—God gave Pharaoh over to his stubbornness in order to demonstrate the futility of Egypt’s gods and Pharaoh’s power, and to display His own might through just judgment.
- **God’s declaration:** “I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:20) Also, “The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 7:5)
- **Analysis:** Here, destruction (the plagues and the Red Sea) is the means to **break through** the barrier to redemption. Egypt was not destroyed simply because it was “Israel’s enemy” in a nationalistic sense, but because Pharaoh set himself against God, holding God’s “firstborn son” (Israel), and thus became the object of divine judgment. **Redemption is the purpose; defeating the obstructer is the necessary warfare to achieve it.**
#### B. Regarding the Canaanite Nations: Judgment and the Preservation of Holiness
In *Deuteronomy*, God commands Israel to drive out and destroy the seven Canaanite nations. This is often a focal point of theological debate.
- **Not based on ethnic hatred:** Deuteronomy 9:4–5 explicitly states that God is driving out the Canaanites **“not because of your righteousness”** but because of **“the wickedness of these nations”** and to fulfill the oath He swore to the patriarchs.
- **The nature of “wickedness”:** Archaeological evidence and biblical descriptions (e.g., Leviticus 18) indicate that Canaanite culture was marked by extreme moral depravity, including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and perverse sexual practices. God describes the land as “vomiting out” its inhabitants.
- **Analysis:** In this part of the narrative, God acts as the **cosmic Judge**. Israel serves as the instrument of His judgment. Deuteronomy warns that if Israel later commits the same evils, they too will be “vomited out” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
- **Underlying purpose:** If Israel entered Canaan and quickly assimilated to the local religions, the redemptive plan (bringing forth the Messiah from this people to bless all nations) would be strangled in its infancy. Therefore, **destroying the Canaanites was both a just judgment for their “iniquity being full” and a removal of the “source of infection” to preserve the purity of the redemptive plan.**
### 3. Theological Balance: Holy War and Grace
When analyzing these two books, two important balancing points must not be overlooked:
- **Precedent of grace:** Even in the midst of judgment, God shows that He is not merely the “God of Israel.” During the exodus, “a mixed multitude” (various non-Israelites) went up with Israel (Exodus 12:38) and were incorporated into the redeemed community. At Jericho, Rahab the prostitute (Joshua) was saved by faith and became an ancestor of David and Jesus. This shows that God’s focus was never narrowly on ethnic genocide, but on **judgment against sin** and **the establishment of a community of faith**.
- **Ultimate direction of redemption:** The entire Old Testament narrative points toward the New Testament. In *Exodus*, God is the warrior who defeats Pharaoh. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus confronts the “ruler of this world” (Satan), He accomplishes redemption not by killing Roman soldiers, but through His sacrifice on the cross. **The physical “removal of enemies” in the Old Testament foreshadows Christ’s spiritual destruction of “the one who has the power of death” (Satan) and His tearing down of the dividing wall between peoples in the New Testament.**
### Conclusion
**God destroyed the enemies who obstructed His redemptive plan for the sake of that redemptive plan.**
Reversing the order—“destroying people for the sake of Israel’s enemies”—would reduce God to a tribal deity, contradicting the repeated emphasis in Scripture (especially Deuteronomy) that it was “not because of your righteousness.”
**A reasonable analysis is this:**
In *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy*, God acts as the **righteous cosmic King**. Within a specific historical context, He **judges those powers that, through their sin, have excluded themselves from grace and systematically obstruct His saving purposes**. He does this in order to **establish a holy covenantal people**, thereby **preparing the way for the ultimate salvation of all humanity through Jesus Christ**.
Therefore, the logical relationship between the two options is this: **the redemptive plan is the purpose; judgment on the enemies is the necessary and just surgery on “systemic evil” required to achieve that purpose.**
This is a very profound and important theological question. The key to understanding God’s actions in *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy* lies in recognizing that the two options are not mutually exclusive—they form a complete relationship of **purpose and means**.
Simply put, **God’s central purpose is to accomplish His redemptive plan, and destroying those who are theologically defined as “enemies obstructing that plan” is the necessary and just way to achieve that purpose.**
Below is a reasonable analysis from several levels.
### 1. Primary Motivation: The Accomplishment of the Redemptive Plan
From the beginning of *Exodus*, when God reveals Himself to Moses, He makes it clear that His purpose is first and foremost “redemption”:
- **He hears their suffering:** “I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:8)
- **He will be their God:** The entire exodus event is not merely about liberation from slavery but about covenant relationship. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians… Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples.” (Exodus 19:4–5)
This shows that God’s ultimate purpose is to establish a kingdom of priests belonging to Him, through whom He will bless all nations. **The redemptive plan is the absolute “first cause.”**
### 2. Destroying Enemies: As “Clearing the Obstacles” to Redemption
In the advancement of the redemptive plan, two main “obstructers” appear. God’s dealings with them reveal the interweaving of **justice and redemption**.
#### A. Regarding Egypt: A Dual Act of Judgment and Deliverance
In *Exodus*, God does not destroy Egypt as soon as Israel suffers. The narrative unfolds as a **progressive confrontation**.
- **Pharaoh’s role:** Scripture repeatedly states both that “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” and that Pharaoh “hardened his own heart.” Narratively, this is a form of “juridical hardening”—God gave Pharaoh over to his stubbornness in order to demonstrate the futility of Egypt’s gods and Pharaoh’s power, and to display His own might through just judgment.
- **God’s declaration:** “I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:20) Also, “The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 7:5)
- **Analysis:** Here, destruction (the plagues and the Red Sea) is the means to **break through** the barrier to redemption. Egypt was not destroyed simply because it was “Israel’s enemy” in a nationalistic sense, but because Pharaoh set himself against God, holding God’s “firstborn son” (Israel), and thus became the object of divine judgment. **Redemption is the purpose; defeating the obstructer is the necessary warfare to achieve it.**
#### B. Regarding the Canaanite Nations: Judgment and the Preservation of Holiness
In *Deuteronomy*, God commands Israel to drive out and destroy the seven Canaanite nations. This is often a focal point of theological debate.
- **Not based on ethnic hatred:** Deuteronomy 9:4–5 explicitly states that God is driving out the Canaanites **“not because of your righteousness”** but because of **“the wickedness of these nations”** and to fulfill the oath He swore to the patriarchs.
- **The nature of “wickedness”:** Archaeological evidence and biblical descriptions (e.g., Leviticus 18) indicate that Canaanite culture was marked by extreme moral depravity, including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and perverse sexual practices. God describes the land as “vomiting out” its inhabitants.
- **Analysis:** In this part of the narrative, God acts as the **cosmic Judge**. Israel serves as the instrument of His judgment. Deuteronomy warns that if Israel later commits the same evils, they too will be “vomited out” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
- **Underlying purpose:** If Israel entered Canaan and quickly assimilated to the local religions, the redemptive plan (bringing forth the Messiah from this people to bless all nations) would be strangled in its infancy. Therefore, **destroying the Canaanites was both a just judgment for their “iniquity being full” and a removal of the “source of infection” to preserve the purity of the redemptive plan.**
### 3. Theological Balance: Holy War and Grace
When analyzing these two books, two important balancing points must not be overlooked:
- **Precedent of grace:** Even in the midst of judgment, God shows that He is not merely the “God of Israel.” During the exodus, “a mixed multitude” (various non-Israelites) went up with Israel (Exodus 12:38) and were incorporated into the redeemed community. At Jericho, Rahab the prostitute (Joshua) was saved by faith and became an ancestor of David and Jesus. This shows that God’s focus was never narrowly on ethnic genocide, but on **judgment against sin** and **the establishment of a community of faith**.
- **Ultimate direction of redemption:** The entire Old Testament narrative points toward the New Testament. In *Exodus*, God is the warrior who defeats Pharaoh. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus confronts the “ruler of this world” (Satan), He accomplishes redemption not by killing Roman soldiers, but through His sacrifice on the cross. **The physical “removal of enemies” in the Old Testament foreshadows Christ’s spiritual destruction of “the one who has the power of death” (Satan) and His tearing down of the dividing wall between peoples in the New Testament.**
### Conclusion
**God destroyed the enemies who obstructed His redemptive plan for the sake of that redemptive plan.**
Reversing the order—“destroying people for the sake of Israel’s enemies”—would reduce God to a tribal deity, contradicting the repeated emphasis in Scripture (especially Deuteronomy) that it was “not because of your righteousness.”
**A reasonable analysis is this:**
In *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy*, God acts as the **righteous cosmic King**. Within a specific historical context, He **judges those powers that, through their sin, have excluded themselves from grace and systematically obstruct His saving purposes**. He does this in order to **establish a holy covenantal people**, thereby **preparing the way for the ultimate salvation of all humanity through Jesus Christ**.
Therefore, the logical relationship between the two options is this: **the redemptive plan is the purpose; judgment on the enemies is the necessary and just surgery on “systemic evil” required to achieve that purpose.**
Wrangler
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AJ, you are all over the place! Earlier, you posted that as a JW "Christians" must be neutral. And here you are giving your denomination all kinds of credit, accounting your neutrality as "actively opposing" injustice.
Don't you realize by the same inaction of neutrality, you can also give yourself credit for actively supporting injustice by not opposing it?!
Actively opposing Hitler looks like the D-Day invasion, bombing their manufacturing facilities, killing their armies and taking survivors of battles prisoners. Actively opposing Hitler looks like the Battle of Stalingrad, the greatest battle on land in human history, where the average life expectancy on the front line was 24 hours.
Not quite moral equivalence. Here is where your moral claims of superiority break down; you are giving yourself moral credit for doing nothing, for acting like an inanimate object. Actively opposed. Doing nothing. Not the same thing!
We're to consider that Jesus came through faithful believing Jews (called, chosen and faithful) - as well as some faithful believing Gentiles in His lineage (Ruth)......not so much from those who were Jews/Hebrews in name only. He is a Jew who is one inwardly. Nevertheless the whole nation of them are loved on account of those who were faithful and believing, even though they are enemies for the gospel's sake.
Jesus said what does it profit a person to gain the whole world but lose their own soul. That is exactly what Satan tempted Him with in the wilderness if He would bow down and worship him. And this is also what many so-called elites do today and why. Luciferians, Cult of Baal, etc. They worship/bow to the devil and do his will for personal gain and status, power.
The "Israel of God", which includes grafted-in, believing Gentiles.........all those whom God has foreknown.....this is not talking about all "Israel after the flesh".
Sister, I have no way to either verify or discount all the particulars, but just want to say I wouldn't be surprised if something like this was the case with Paula White (and she has talked some about being abused as a child). I wondered the same about Charlie Kirk's widow as well.
It is not the only form of deception, but believers do need to stay far away from ministries and things which are characterized by hype and glam. That is all very far from being the way of Christ...the simplicity of Christ, whose way we are to follow. All the hype and glam and showmanship is the way of the world....and the world is consummately evil....way worse than ever I used to understand. Because it is ruled by the god and prince of this world more literally than most realize. Even though it is all under God's sovereignty still.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
here is what i know . THEY ALL STILL TRAPPED IN BONDAGE under satan and know it not .
That i can easily prove . The entire world is in bondage and trapped in the darkness of satan .
EVERY false religoin is
THE ONLY WAY OUTTTA of it , Lets read some acts chapter twenty and six
FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST . and if our jesus is all about that money , IT AINT JESUS who SPOKE AGAINST the love of money
and said NOT to heap and steap your treasures up on earth for where your treasure is THERE BE YOUR heart .
pretty simple .
Captives of the devil and deceived by him. Only in Jesus is that captivity led captive by Him.
God's ways are not man's ways. And His ways are foolishness to the wisdom of man. Jesus said those who live by the sword will die by the sword.
What does God's word say about the kingdoms of this world........since they are ruled by the god and prince of this world, Satan? But Satan's kingdom is divided against itself......it is always the "good" part of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil that is so deceptive to believers.
(Nevertheless God in Christ is greater than Satan and is on His throne sovereignly ruling over all to ultimately bring His sovereign plans/purposes to pass.)
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Yes, @Lizbeth ...Erika and her birth family are all connected with Israel/Mossad, Epstein, Trump, and the whole child trafficking thing.
Charlie was also born in, and groomed from young to go into the Christian evangelical spotlight. I'm not saying he never knew Christ. I believe he did, and the evidence being unearthed is that he was beginning to wake up to the wrongness of the genocide in Gaza, the Israeli involvement in that and trafficking, and when he turned down huge sums of money from Netanyahu, and also ordered a "DOGE-like" audit of his own organization to see where the money was going .....he was killed. He was supposed to influence the younger generation toward Zionism, and he was in line for a governmental role as well. But he was very much against a war with Iran, and told people closest to him that he believed he would die young. It seems this rebellion against his cult handlers was the reason for that.
Erika already had a history connection with human trafficking through her organization in Romania. She was connected with Trump, the military, Israel/Mossad ...and Trump is the one who introduced her to Charlie. She is several years older than him. She is what the cult calls a "honeypot." Charlie was oblivious ...but when he began to realize some shady business was going on, he ordered the audit. He was killed before that could happen.
Now, Erika is over the organization and all kinda of Zionism is being moved forward. She's being moved into the political realm. She, like Paula, has embraced her cult role rather than face persecution.
Another one is Pam Bondi. A young pretty blond never gets that close to a president ...especially Trump ....unless they've been born in, programmed, groomed, and handled. She has started breaking down bc of the Epstein fiasco and Trump has moved her out of her position to keep her from outing more info on him. Instead, Trump has placed his yes-man in her stead.
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NayborBear
Active Member
Let me ask you this then AJ:
"I may vehemently disagree with what you say!"
"Yet?" "I will fight to death for your right to say it!"
If this doesn't doesn't come from "Yah'-uh-'Vay Our Banner?"
From whence does it come from Karen?
Perhaps from the lips of someone like a Hitler, or a Stalin? Or, maybe from the lips of a Castro, or even some ayatollah in Iran? Or perhaps some guy in N. Korea, or China, or Russia?
Best choose who's side you are on here Karen!
Do you not ponder sometimes, that "Yah'-uh-'Vay" says: "I've allowed this situation here!" "The (proverbial) ball is in your court now!"
"What are YOU gonna do with it?"
"Hmmm?"
Matthew 25:
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
But? You go and keep riding in that wagon AJ! And yea, tell and teach everyone you cross paths with to do the same as you! And rebuke the ones' that don't, or won't!
But, don't think, even for ONE SECOND! That GOD doesn't rise up in MEN their ability/ies to apply "CORRECTIVE LOVE" to those who are AGAINST HIM! Even when HE has allowed a/the scenario!
Oft times to the rebuke and chiding of little children!
Elstwise? There would've been a very DISTINCT possibility these several states would NEVER have BEEN!
Wrangler
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Yes, he said that. I thought of starting a thread on how people reconcile that to him telling us to buy a sword.
How I reconcile it is about relying on God first, rather than our own abilities.
Another thread I thought of starting is about how we are supposed to be prepared and pray throughout, not “all we can do now is pray” without doing any normal prep. In the OT, the phrase was guard/gather your loins. Thread title: Should Christian’s Be Peaceful or Harmless?
Big difference. Peaceful implies capacity to be dangerous, wage war, etc.
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Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Christ’s followers uphold His teaching on love, peace, and prayer for enemies.
Anything else is supported by satan.
That's the bottom line.
------------------------------------
Have a peaceful weekend.
Anything else is supported by satan.
That's the bottom line.
------------------------------------
Have a peaceful weekend.
This is where I stand. And yet, if someone were to threaten my children or grandchildren, I do believe that I am to do everything in my power to withstand them and prevent harm coming to the innocent ...both spiritually and physically. I don't advocate for starting wars, or threatening other people, or especially targeting their children. I believe we should defend our homeland ...have a solid defense in the event of an enemy attack on our own soil.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
why how true this is my friend . but now for a warning that is perhaps gonna roll shock waves through the hearts of all .
BOTH SIDES politicans have been selling us the wrong love , wrong peace and wrong prayer for our enemies .
And anything connected to the great whore of ecumeincalism has done and is doing the same .
You said HIS teaching on LOVE , HIS teaching on peace , HIS prayer for enemies . AND RIGHT YOU ARE .
ONLY HIS LOVE WOULD HAVE DARN SURE POINTED TO THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS and that jesus dont honor any SIN
or UNBELEIF .
HIS PEACE , would have been THE GOSPEL OF JESUS , that TO HAVE PEACE WITH GOD YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM .
And prayer for enemies DARN SURE would have been , OH MAY FOLKS RUN TO JESUS NOW before forever its too late .
BUT THEIRS whom they claim is of GOD and YET is of satan
does rather this ...................OH dont judge , dont correct , GOD is love and HEY IT DONT MA TTER WHAT religoin one is of
THEY ALL SERVE GOD and are f ine . THAT SOUNDS LIKE AN ANTI CHRIST DEATH SENTENCE for their own destruction . NOT LOVE
from GOD that had pointed TO JESUS .
THEIR peace . WOW in order to attain THEIR WORLD PEACE
THE DIRE NECESITY to have had to BELIEvE ON JESUS HAD TO BE REMOVED and a LIE SOLD .
SO believe me when i say , EVEN THOUGH they believe this is the way to at tain PEACE N SAFETY
ITS GONNA ATTAIN ONLY SUDDEN DESTRUC TION UPON THEM ALL by GOD AND THE LAMB , f or its peace plan
DENIED THE ONE TRUE CHRIST who had said YE MUST BLEIEVE TO BE SAVED and sold a fat fat anti christ lie .
And their p rayers , YEAH its just LET US ALL BE ONE for world peace . SATAN is a liar . OH and he knows how to lie
and to decieve them all . And the decieved will b uy it . But the sheep WILL DENY the lie of anti christ and his harlot .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
sadly if folks like you had focused rather ON THE ONE T RUE RECONILATION
of how ONE CAN BE RECONCILED TO GOD and HAVE PEACE WITH GOD , souls might actually have heard the truth .
But not the well favored ecumeincal whore . NO
her idea of reconcilation has NAUGHT TO DO with FAITH IN JESUS
but rather with Bringing man to merge with man , UNDER A FAT LIE , for to attain world peace n safety .
OOPSY . many folks now follow the peace plan of another . AND IT DARN SURE AINT THE PEACE PLAN
of GOD OR OF CHRIST . no , IT DONE OMITTED , with an anti christ lie , the ONLY WAY ON HOW
to be reconciled to GOD . as it sold through its anti christ intefaith interreligious dialgoue
the LIE of anti christ which said , ALL religoins are serving the same GOD in different ways
Oh let us be one for world peace , we all serv e the same GOD and its his will for us to have WORLD PEACE .
SOMEONE BOUGHT A LIE . OH yeah , many someones have bought a lie .
SO dont expect PEAcE N SAFETY ON THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST , for all who loved and made a lie
GONNA SEE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION on that day . FLEE that ecumeincal intefaith realm and NEVER once look back .
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Several top generals have been fired by Hesketh.
(No doubt to be replaced by evil MAGA Trump supporters)
-------------------------------------------------
And on it goes:
An American warplane is down, the fate of the aircrew is uncertain.
The fantasy of a neat, controlled, cost-free escalation is colliding with reality.
Be prepared to receive body bags if this nonsense is allowed to proceed.
(No doubt to be replaced by evil MAGA Trump supporters)
-------------------------------------------------
And on it goes:
An American warplane is down, the fate of the aircrew is uncertain.
The fantasy of a neat, controlled, cost-free escalation is colliding with reality.
Be prepared to receive body bags if this nonsense is allowed to proceed.
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