Daniel 7:11 “the beast.”

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CTK

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I did answer your question. You are simply confusing that number "fourth" with the order of the kingdoms with the Roman empire as the 4th one. Because of that, some Bible scholars point to the concept of a 'revived Roman empire' with the final beast.
Sorry, I am not following you here. Is the 4th kingdom in the metal man image in chapter 2 the Roman Empire?

It is important, in my studies, that one interprets chapter 2 on its own and then move onto to chapter 7 where God builds off of His chapter 2 “blueprint.” Further, Daniel was written for His people and His city not for the end times. Revelation will take care of itself.

Revelation does not interpret Daniel, but Daniel interprets Revelation - and I hope this makes sense, the order does matter. The Jews were or should have been able to interpret Daniel - obviously, without any NT writings.

So, if you don’t mind, I would ask that we might look closely at chapter 2 before chapter 7 or Revelation.

I really do not believe anyone has understood verses 34 or 35 and certainly not 41-45.

So, I would ask you to identify the 4th kingdom in chapter 2. Then, we might discuss 34 and 35 and why 34 MUST be His first coming and 35 is His return. The language in 35 speaks of a harvest language, this is not part of 34.

Look forward ton our thoughts.
 

CTK

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I am not going to stroke the doctrines of men you are wanting to accept about that Daniel 2 & 7 fourth kingdom. I will stay with what The Word of God says about it.

And God's Word shows the "ten horns" of that kingdom are "ten kings", and that they manifest concurrently for "one hour" with the beast, meaning the beast king.

Rev 17:12-14
12 And
the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV


We know for certain that above 14th verse cannot be about the time of Christ's 1st coming, because at His 1st coming He came meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed for the remission of sins of those who would believe on Him. Lord Jesus did not have war with His enemies at His 1st coming, as that war is a future event to occur at His 2nd coming per Revelation 19.

Daniel 7 reiterates the same... order of events about those "ten horns" appearing at the END of this world and Jesus destroys them at His 2nd coming...

Dan 7:7-14
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold
a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The "little horn" represents the beast king concept covered in the Revelation 17 Chapter, which is for the END of this world. He is the one those ten kings will have power with for "one hour" at the end, as they will give their power to him.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.

These above and next verses cover the time when those ten horns are destroyed by Christ's future coming, and God takes power over all the earth establishing His literal physical Kingdom upon the earth with Jesus ruling the nations with His "rod of iron".

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The above verse is an actual reference to Revelation 20 at the time right after Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the nations with His "rod of iron." That is when the books are opened, and the nations are judged out of those books.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Like Revelation 13 & 17 reveals, the idea of the 'beast' of Revelation is in two concepts, a beast kingdom, and its beast king. The above is pointing to the "little horn" as the beast king at the END that will be slain, his body destroyed and given to the flame, i.e. cast into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The above verse backs up in time a little bit, and happens at the start of Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked. Those are the kings of Isaiah 24:21-22 that are cast into the pit along with Satan at Christ's coming, and are visited after many days (i.e., after the Millennium).

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV


The above establishing of God's Kingdom is about Christ's 2nd coming, NOT the cross.
I cannot discuss Revelation at this time … but the Book of Daniel. And we cannot discuss chapter 7 until we discuss chapter 2.

I certainly am not telling you that your interpretations are wrong or faulty but here to DISCUSS an alternative interpretation.

And that discussion is now to identify the 4th kingdom in the metal man image only- not jump ahead at all.

Thanks.
 

CTK

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Greetings again CTK,

I am sorry, but I cannot follow or accept your reasoning here. I have a fairly thorough understanding of Daniel 7 and 8 with a thorough assessment of the 1260 days and the 2300 evening/mornings, and I assume Daniel 11 is mostly fulfilled except I have a thorough assessment of Daniel 11:40-45. As such I may differ from those that consider ALL or MOST is future.

Kind regards
Trevor
Ok and thanks
 

CTK

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I am not going to stroke the doctrines of men you are wanting to accept about that Daniel 2 & 7 fourth kingdom. I will stay with what The Word of God says about it.

And God's Word shows the "ten horns" of that kingdom are "ten kings", and that they manifest concurrently for "one hour" with the beast, meaning the beast king.

Rev 17:12-14
12 And
the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV


We know for certain that above 14th verse cannot be about the time of Christ's 1st coming, because at His 1st coming He came meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed for the remission of sins of those who would believe on Him. Lord Jesus did not have war with His enemies at His 1st coming, as that war is a future event to occur at His 2nd coming per Revelation 19.

Daniel 7 reiterates the same... order of events about those "ten horns" appearing at the END of this world and Jesus destroys them at His 2nd coming...

Dan 7:7-14
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold
a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The "little horn" represents the beast king concept covered in the Revelation 17 Chapter, which is for the END of this world. He is the one those ten kings will have power with for "one hour" at the end, as they will give their power to him.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.

These above and next verses cover the time when those ten horns are destroyed by Christ's future coming, and God takes power over all the earth establishing His literal physical Kingdom upon the earth with Jesus ruling the nations with His "rod of iron".

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The above verse is an actual reference to Revelation 20 at the time right after Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the nations with His "rod of iron." That is when the books are opened, and the nations are judged out of those books.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Like Revelation 13 & 17 reveals, the idea of the 'beast' of Revelation is in two concepts, a beast kingdom, and its beast king. The above is pointing to the "little horn" as the beast king at the END that will be slain, his body destroyed and given to the flame, i.e. cast into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The above verse backs up in time a little bit, and happens at the start of Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked. Those are the kings of Isaiah 24:21-22 that are cast into the pit along with Satan at Christ's coming, and are visited after many days (i.e., after the Millennium).

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV


The above establishing of God's Kingdom is about Christ's 2nd coming, NOT the cross.
Davy, I am writing this post to you after reading the last post from Trevor. Apparently, he does not seem interested in continuing our discussion on Daniel. At this time, you are the only individual that MAY be interested.. if not, you can also let me know and the discussion about verse 7:11 will no be addressed… thanks
 

Davy

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Sorry, I am not following you here. Is the 4th kingdom in the metal man image in chapter 2 the Roman Empire?

Yes, the Roman empire is represented in Daniel 2 by the "legs of iron". What many miss is that there are 5 beast kingdoms being described. The old Roman empire was the 4th one.

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Grecia (Alexander the Great)
4. Roman empire
5 ?? (at the end of this world) FEET of mixed part iron and part clay

That is why the following Daniel 2:34-35 Scripture points to that 5th kingdom at the end of this world in the days when Jesus returns to setup His everlasting LITERAL Kingdom here on earth with His Presence...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his
feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the
iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

Count the number of the statue pieces above, that's FIVE pieces, not Four. The FEET of TEN TOES of mixed iron and clay represent the final beast kingdom at the end when Jesus returns. That "great mountain" that will fill the whole earth represents Christ's future literal earthly Kingdom still to come. The Daniel 2:44-45 verses are basically saying the same thing.

So I don't know why so many struggle with the above, when all one need do is simply read what it says and heed it as written.
 

Davy

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I cannot discuss Revelation at this time … but the Book of Daniel. And we cannot discuss chapter 7 until we discuss chapter 2.

I certainly am not telling you that your interpretations are wrong or faulty but here to DISCUSS an alternative interpretation.

And that discussion is now to identify the 4th kingdom in the metal man image only- not jump ahead at all.

Thanks.

Cannot leave out the Book of Revelation when it has a direct reference to the Book of Daniel. Their reference to same prophecy for the end prevents leaving Revelation out. We are not to try and shackle what Christ has provided us.
 

Davy

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Davy, I am writing this post to you after reading the last post from Trevor. Apparently, he does not seem interested in continuing our discussion on Daniel. At this time, you are the only individual that MAY be interested.. if not, you can also let me know and the discussion about verse 7:11 will no be addressed… thanks

Apparently, you have accepted a doctrine of men about Christ's Kingdom, as if Christ's Kingdom already came at the cross. Only His Kingdom by The Spirit came at the cross, and you should easily know that since Christ's official Kingdom requires that Lord Jesus' direct Presence be here on earth reigning upon the throne of His flesh father David, an earthly throne.

Now there are those who are against all that, but they are not staying in God's Word about it, but have made up their own doctrine instead. The Scripture points they go against...

1. they teach that David's throne is in Heaven, that Jesus is now sitting on it.
2. they teach that Christ's FULL Kingdom came at the cross.
3. they teach that Lord Jesus and His elect Church reign FROM HEAVEN, and not upon this earth in Jerusalem where Bible Scripture actually declares.

Instead, what is actually written in God's Word, is...

1. David's throne is an earthly throne, and God promised David there would always be one of Israel sitting upon that earthly throne. Genesis 49:10 proves this and reveals this will be so until "Shiloh" (Christ) comes, and then He will sit upon it, on this earth.

2. In John 18:36, Lord Jesus said this world, meaning this present world time, is not His Kingdom, because if it were, His servants would have fought to prevent Him from being crucified. But His Kingdom is not of this world He said. This means His 'literal' future Kingdom that is to be established on earth, sitting upon David's earthly throne in Jerusalem, as written in Psalms 2, Genesis 49:10, and Zechariah 14. Even the 'overturns' of Ezekiel 21 is about this.

3. When Lord Jesus returns at His future 2nd coming, He will bring the saints that have already died with Him 'from Heaven', when He comes (per 1 Thess.4:13-16). They are already with Him in Heaven. But the saints still alive on earth on that day, He will cause them to be "caught up" to Him and the resurrected saints, and they ALL... go with Jesus to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem where Jesus' feet are written to touch down at, on earth. And Jerusalem is where His "thousand years" reign with His elect will occur.
 

CTK

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Yes, the Roman empire is represented in Daniel 2 by the "legs of iron". What many miss is that there are 5 beast kingdoms being described. The old Roman empire was the 4th one.

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Grecia (Alexander the Great)
4. Roman empire
5 ?? (at the end of this world) FEET of mixed part iron and part clay

That is why the following Daniel 2:34-35 Scripture points to that 5th kingdom at the end of this world in the days when Jesus returns to setup His everlasting LITERAL Kingdom here on earth with His Presence...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his
feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the
iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

Count the number of the statue pieces above, that's FIVE pieces, not Four. The FEET of TEN TOES of mixed iron and clay represent the final beast kingdom at the end when Jesus returns. That "great mountain" that will fill the whole earth represents Christ's future literal earthly Kingdom still to come. The Daniel 2:44-45 verses are basically saying the same thing.

So I don't know why so many struggle with the above, when all one need do is simply read what it says and heed it as written.
There are only 4 beasts or kingdoms that God had brought out of the sea. The 4 are repeated in chapter 7. God’s earthly kingdom that He set up at the cross was not “brought out of the sea.” It was not from the earth or the sea.

There is a very specific reason why God selected the 4 beast kingdoms to be represented by metal. They are fixed, they are deliberately shown to be very different and cannot be mixed together, they firmly define each of the 4, and God has ensured there are no spaces or opportunities for man to insert another kingdom or actor within each of those 4 kingdoms that He does not reveal.

He sort of doubles down by identifying each of the 4 metal sections with a specific section of a man. The final kingdom is constructed entirely of iron (Rome) but it is the only kingdom that contains a non-metallic element - clay. This is not accidental. Throughout the OT (including Jeremiah) we can find that God is referred to as the “Potter” and His people “the clay.”

The “clay” and contained within the iron kingdom of Rome will be separated (spiritually) by the striking of the “Stone” (Jesus) for the purpose of
1) spirituality separating them from Pagan Rome (as opposed to a military campaign that was the expectation of the Jews at the time), and,

2) to separate His people into two categories: those who would come to accept Him as their Messiah identified as “pottery clay” in verses 41-44, and those that would reject Him as “ceramic or miry clay.” Because their hearts were hardened and could not accept Him as their Messiah.

Verses 42-44 tell us how this “striking” (cross) will affect : Rome, His church, the coming of the little horn. These are all the consequences that take place immediately after the cross to the time the little horn comes to full power around 500 AD. However, Daniel clearly tells us this little horn will continue until His return - Daniel is not an end time book - it certainly tells us the little horn will continue and how he will go against God’s earthly kingdom over the coming 2000 years but it does not discuss the end time details - that belongs to Revelation.

If you look through the 12 chapters the emphasis is on 3 separate periods:

1) time in Babylon of 70 years,
2) then the focus shifts to the next major period and perhaps the most important prophecy in scripture, the 70 weeks of years prophecy that covers the following 490 literal years from 457 BC to 33 / 34 AD or 3.5 years after the cross. This is the primary purpose of Daniel- to show His plan for the restoration of His people and His city as they come threw these 4 kingdoms and the climax when the Messiah will arrive on the first day of the 70th week to fulfill His God given mission (9:24).

All of that is largely revealed in chapters 1-10 (from captivity to full and complete restoration fatback in Jerusalem).

Then, comes chapter 11 and 12 where He reveals the details that will take place from the time after the cross to when the little horn will sit atop the beast kingdom and rule over both civil and spiritual matters ( he is the one that will speak pompous things against God, His church, His gospel, claim divinity that belongs only to God, etc. And these things will CONTINUE UNTIL His return - they are not end time events.

Except for the final outcome - where Jesus returns at the time of judgement and harvest, verses 41-44 speak to those events that will take place reverses 34-35. There is no reason for these verses if 34 and 35 are both speaking about the same end time event.

God is showing / revealing the consequences of His coming and the cross that will take place between His first and second coming.

If you want to prove that, you will have to perform a very similar study that completely unpacked these tremendously difficult 4 verses at the end of chapter 2. One cannot claim they are simply end time events without unpacking them and identifying exactly what they are telling us, who the actors are and the events that they reveal and if course, the exact timing these verses speak to.

God is not vague but is very detailed and specific. So, I would ask that you might attempt to unpack these very enigmatic verses at the end of chapter 2. There is only one interpretation that comes out of these verses where everything ties together.

And please understand that Daniel was written for His people and His city and so they would recognize the coming of their Messiah. The NT was not available to them.. Revelation does not interpret Daniel but one cannot one cannot interpret Revelation unless Daniel is first interpreted.

Perhaps then, you might be willing to try and unpack verse 41? It and the next few verses are so difficult… but they will prove that 34 is indeed the reason it represents His first coming and the need to reveal what happens after 34 before His return in 35.
 

ScottA

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In Daniel 7:11 he writes that the beast will be slain…..

Who is this beast?

When was this beast slain?

Is this one of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2?

Why is this (if it is) so relevant in this chapter?
The beasts are the workings of Satan. The final manifestation of the beast--is the [international] Deep State.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Apparently, you have accepted a doctrine of men about Christ's Kingdom, as if Christ's Kingdom already came at the cross. Only His Kingdom by The Spirit came at the cross,
Oh, is that all? Just His "Kingdom by The Spirit"? That apparently means nothing to you. Earthly things are what matter to you, not spiritual things. Sad.

and you should easily know that since Christ's official Kingdom
So, His "Kingdom by The Spirit" isn't official?

requires that Lord Jesus' direct Presence be here on earth reigning upon the throne of His flesh father David, an earthly throne.

Now there are those who are against all that, but they are not staying in God's Word about it, but have made up their own doctrine instead.
Acts 2:29-36 indicates that Jesus was raised to David's throne by way of being raised from the dead. Unlike you, I accept what Peter taught rather than insisting that the prophecy can't be fulfilled unless Jesus sits on a measly earthly throne.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Scripture points they go against...

1. they teach that David's throne is in Heaven, that Jesus is now sitting on it.
We teach that because that's what Peter taught in Acts 2:29-36.

2. they teach that Christ's FULL Kingdom came at the cross.
What does that even mean?

3. they teach that Lord Jesus and His elect Church reign FROM HEAVEN, and not upon this earth in Jerusalem where Bible Scripture actually declares.
So, what do you think the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ are doing in heaven? Do you not believe they are with Jesus there?

Instead, what is actually written in God's Word, is...

1. David's throne is an earthly throne, and God promised David there would always be one of Israel sitting upon that earthly throne. Genesis 49:10 proves this and reveals this will be so until "Shiloh" (Christ) comes, and then He will sit upon it, on this earth.
You clearly do not accept what Peter taught in Acts 2:29-36.

2. In John 18:36, Lord Jesus said this world, meaning this present world time, is not His Kingdom, because if it were, His servants would have fought to prevent Him from being crucified. But His Kingdom is not of this world He said.
You butcher that verse badly. He did not say that His kingdom was not in the world. He indicated that His kingdom is not worldly like the kingdoms of this world are. Earthly kingdoms are evil, but Christ's kingdom originates from heaven and is not evil and worldly like this world's kingdoms.

When Jesus was on the earth and in the world Jesus said that He and His followers were not of the world despite being in the world. Based on how you interpret the meaning of His kingdom not being of the world, you would have to conclude that Jesus was saying He and His followers were not in the world when He said they are not of the world, which is obviously false.
 

Jay Ross

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Yes, the Roman empire is represented in Daniel 2 by the "legs of iron". What many miss is that there are 5 beast kingdoms being described. The old Roman empire was the 4th one.

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Grecia (Alexander the Great)
4. Roman empire
5 ?? (at the end of this world) FEET of mixed part iron and part clay

That is why the following Daniel 2:34-35 Scripture points to that 5th kingdom at the end of this world in the days when Jesus returns to setup His everlasting LITERAL Kingdom here on earth with His Presence...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his
feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the
iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

Count the number of the statue pieces above, that's FIVE pieces, not Four. The FEET of TEN TOES of mixed iron and clay represent the final beast kingdom at the end when Jesus returns. That "great mountain" that will fill the whole earth represents Christ's future literal earthly Kingdom still to come. The Daniel 2:44-45 verses are basically saying the same thing.

So I don't know why so many struggle with the above, when all one need do is simply read what it says and heed it as written.

Oh Davy, Jer 50 shows that Babylon by desolated and made desolate by the third kingdom having dominion over the land of Babylon.

Below is my understanding of Jeremiah 50 page 1: -
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Page 2
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Page 3
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Page 4
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Page 5
1775706068604.png

The above gives a very different picture of the history of the land of Babylon for those who will take the time to read the above chapter and take the time meditate upon what Jeremiah had written. Nearly all of the commentaries written before the emergence of the Zionist movement held to the false reformation father's understanding which was used to justify the demonisation of the RCC and its Popes.

Many of the modern commentaries about Babylon and what will befall it are still reflective of the reformation fathers' concocted commentaries.

Babylon was remembered once more before God in 1926 AD to receive God's wrath once more for what they have done to the nation of Israel.

Shalom
 

Davy

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There are only 4 beasts or kingdoms that God had brought out of the sea. The 4 are repeated in chapter 7. God’s earthly kingdom that He set up at the cross was not “brought out of the sea.” It was not from the earth or the sea.

Didn't I mention that you are letting that word "fourth" throw you off about the 'final' beast system being setup today for the end of this world?

The FIVE pieces of the beast statue in Daniel 2 are clearly shown.

For there to be only 4 beast kingdoms, that would mean the 'old' Roman empire was the last one, since it is represented by the "legs of iron". It fell with Justinian in the 6th century A.D., and is no more. That would mean no "great tribulation" for the end like Bible prophecy states. And that would mean what Lord Jesus showed about the beast at the end is a lie.
 

CTK

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Didn't I mention that you are letting that word "fourth" throw you off about the 'final' beast system being setup today for the end of this world?

The FIVE pieces of the beast statue in Daniel 2 are clearly shown.

For there to be only 4 beast kingdoms, that would mean the 'old' Roman empire was the last one, since it is represented by the "legs of iron". It fell with Justinian in the 6th century A.D., and is no more. That would mean no "great tribulation" for the end like Bible prophecy states. And that would mean what Lord Jesus showed about the beast at the end is a lie.
Would you mind unpacking 2:41 for me? What specifically is the meaning? Who are the actors? When do these things take place? What has caused these events and changes?

This is one of the four (41-44) EXTREMELY difficult verses to interpret. The ONLY verses that surpass these 4 are those found in chapter 11 - and they are beyond belief.

I am sure you would unpack these much quicker than I but you do not seem open to the possibility that “today’s accepted interpretations” (meaning your choice of anyone of the 3 major ones that are promoted by scholars and theologians who themselves cannot agree on whatsoever) are seriously flawed.

But my attempt here is to suggest an alternative interpretation (initially for 7:11) but it requires one to first return to 2:34 (Stone striking the iron and the clay) which STARTS the whole thing! Meaning, everything begins with Jesus and the cross.

Verse 2:34 starts it all- His coming and His mission - the cross (9:24). And as a result of the cross we will see the consequences of it in 2:41-44). Only when we understand these verses will we be able to interpret the rest of Daniel - and of course, 7:11 and beyond.

There is no purpose for these verses to exist unless 2:34 is the cross.

So, if you would like to CONSIDER that 2:34 is the cross, then you might attempt to unpack 2:41 only to see what it means.

Once again, after Daniel identifies the 4 kingdoms in “Dream sequence,” verses 31-35, he then tells us in verse 40 that the 4th kingdom (final) will be made of iron (Rome). That is the fourth and final kingdom that God has brought forth from the sea WITHIN His plan of restoration and salvation - book of Daniel).

But notice in verse 2:41 that he immediately tells us “this kingdom will be divided.”

There will never be more than 4 kingdoms but God will divide the fourth. And the manner He does this is by the cross - symbolically revealed by the “Stone striking the iron and clay within the feet.”

This is ONE of the consequences of 2:34 and why it is the cross and CAUSES 2:41-44 to happen. No cross, no division, no division, no church, no church, no little horn…

Please CONSIDER ONLY and if you would like to try and unpack 2:41 given the above understanding, I would look forward to your interpretations. Thanks.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again CTK,
There will never be more than 4 kingdoms but God will divide the fourth. And the manner He does this is by the cross - symbolically revealed by the “Stone striking the iron and clay within the feet.”
I agree that there are only four Kingdoms, four Beasts, but contrary to your exposition the clay is part of the Fourth Beast and represents the decline in quality and strength of the Fourth Beast. The clay is also destroyed when the Stone strikes the Image upon the feet, and this represents what will happen when Jesus comes to replace the present Kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. You are misapplying the symbol of the clay. Where do you find the equivalent of the Clay in Daniel 7? Daniel 2 gives an exposition of the relevance of the clay in the following and it does not agree with your concepts:

Daniel 2:41-43 (KJV): 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CTK

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Greetings again CTK,

I agree that there are only four Kingdoms, four Beasts, but contrary to your exposition the clay is part of the Fourth Beast and represents the decline in quality and strength of the Fourth Beast. The clay is also destroyed when the Stone strikes the Image upon the feet, and this represents what will happen when Jesus comes to replace the present Kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. You are misapplying the symbol of the clay. Where do you find the equivalent of the Clay in Daniel 7? Daniel 2 gives an exposition of the relevance of the clay in the following and it does not agree with your concepts:

Daniel 2:41-43 (KJV): 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Kind regards
Trevor
There is nothing that tells you the clay will be destroyed. You are not understanding that Jesus did not come to destroy but to divide. He is using the clay, and Himself as the Potter (found in the OT) to symbolize the separation of His people, not only away from pagan Rome but into those that will come to accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay), and those that will reject Him (ceramic clay).

Daniel is not an end time prophecy but is written for His people and His city. The most important prophecy in scripture is the 70 weeks of years which largely covers most of Daniel from the time if the second kingdom to the fourth.

The book of Daniel is presented as His plan to restore His people and His city once they have been sent to Babylon for their disobedience. This is how God will show their travels THROUGH these 4 kingdoms while at the same time, He will incorporate His plan of salvation and restoration for all mankind.

Thus, the purpose of identifying the first 483 years of the prophecy is to POINT to the most important week (7 years) in history - the arrival of their Messiah. He arrives exactly on the first day of the 70th week and begins His ministry. He will be on the earth for 3.5 years or 1/2 of the final week, however, He will fulfill ALL 6 of His God given mission in 9:24.

God will very purposely select new symbols in both chapters 7 and 8 for these same 4 kingdoms. He will also use different symbols for these same entities in Revelation.

The selected symbols in each chapter reveal something very different about them… this is the way God presents the same powers or entities or even actors that reveal something very different much more about them - especially when these same powers are seen or found in different times. The entities are always the same but they change as time moves on.

Daniel is not presented like a history book where the next verse continues chronologically - so one expects the same power or symbol or entity to follow down the path of time AND we can track them just as we would do in our history books. And that is how almost 99% of “today’s accepted interpretations” have been developed- today’s and yesterday’s scholars and theologians have used a “historical approach,” (try to match the events and actors to our flawed history books as if that is how God is presenting His Plan of restoration and salvation for mankind.

He will include and exclude those kingdoms and those actors that He deems necessary to reveal His prophecies. But when man attempts to interpret Daniel along side our history books they fail miserably. When they cannot find a similar event or actor that matches one in our history book, they conclude they must be end time events.

Once again, Daniel is written for His people and His city and almost all of Daniel can be found to have taken place in one of the 3 time periods:


1) first 70 years in Babylon,

2) those verses that speak to the 490 literal years of the prophecy that lead up to the last week when the Messiah arrives (nothing can be more important than His coming and the consequences of Him being rejected and resurrected).

3) the remaining verses (chapters 11 and 12) speak to those consequences AFTER the cross. It reveals what takes place just after the cross to His people, those who will begin His church, the demise of the fourth kingdom of pagan Rome, the growth of His church, the corruption of His church and how / when the little horn will rise through His church and sit atop the 4th beast kingdom (now identified also in chapter 2 as the “divided” kingdom) AND WILL CONTINUE UNTIL HIS RETURN.

There is, of course a few important verses found in Daniel that tell us this little horn will be destroyed without human hands and that Jesus will come in the clouds, but Daniel is not presented as an end time prophecy… it is all about His first coming and what occurs to His church and His people BEFORE 2:35, His return.

And I will give you the same opportunity that u offered @Davy earlier. The above interpretations can be proven by taking one verse at a time (as I was forced to do to try and understand Daniel so that each chapter, each actor, each event spoke together and locked together like a glove).

So, please interpret verse 2:41 for me- who are the actors being discussed, what are the events mentioned, what caused these changes WITHIN chapter 2 from the previous section of verses (31-35 - Dream sequence verses)?

You simply must be able to unpack His words in these verses - all 12 chapters and not simply state - oh, they are end time events. God has given us these verses for a reason- to study them and extract what each is telling us WITHIN HIS STORY. We cannot just throw a series of verses out some 2000 years labeling them as end time events because prior scholars or theologians have done so.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again CTK,
There is nothing that tells you the clay will be destroyed.
Daniel 2:32-35 (KJV): 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CTK

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Greetings again CTK,

Daniel 2:32-35 (KJV): 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Kind regards
Trevor
Ok, I think we can call it a day. Thanks.
 

Davy

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Would you mind unpacking 2:41 for me? What specifically is the meaning? Who are the actors? When do these things take place? What has caused these events and changes?

Yes, I do mind a bit, because I'm not going to pull out a single verse so as to try and apply a context outside the Daniel 2 Chapter flow. I will only address it with other Scripture in that Chapter that keeps the flow.

All these verses must be understood together in context with each other...

Dan 2:40-44
40 And
the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

4th kingdom (ancient Rome), the "legs of iron", does NOT include the feet of ten toes.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.


Verse 41 begins by referring back to verses 34-35. Verse 35 also shows the FIVE pieces being broken 'together' at the END of this world, because at the END of this world is when Christ's 'literal', physical Kingdom will be setup on this earth with His direct Presence, reigning from Jerusalem on earth per Zechariah 14 and Psalms 2. That is when all the pieces of the beast statue are broken by Christ as that "stone" of verse 35. And notice that "stone" does not smite that 4th kingdom upon its "legs of iron", but upon the next kingdom of the feet part of iron, and part of clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men
: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
KJV


Once again, the subject of verse 35 when Messiah returns at His 2nd coming, which is when Christ as the "stone" will smite that FIFTH beast upon its feet of ten toes, and ALL the 5 beast statue pieces coming tumbling down, together. And Christ's Kingdom, His literal Kingdom with His coming, is then setup in its place. THAT... has not happened yet today.
 

Davy

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But my attempt here is to suggest an alternative interpretation (initially for 7:11) but it requires one to first return to 2:34 (Stone striking the iron and the clay) which STARTS the whole thing! Meaning, everything begins with Jesus and the cross.

Verse 2:34 starts it all- His coming and His mission - the cross (9:24). And as a result of the cross we will see the consequences of it in 2:41-44). Only when we understand these verses will we be able to interpret the rest of Daniel - and of course, 7:11 and beyond.

There is no purpose for these verses to exist unless 2:34 is the cross.

That is one of your major faulty interpretation problems with that Daniel 2 Scripture.

Dan.2:34-35 and Dan.2:44-45 makes it plain that the beast of the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay will exist at the END, when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. Christ Jesus' 1st coming was meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed, but not His future 2nd coming which is still sometime in our near future.

Moreover, the world events today are very plain as to what is going on, the beast workers no longer hide their plans for a "one world government" (a.k.a. "New World Order"). That is that final beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of Daniel 2. The Revelation 17 Scripture, which Jesus gave His Church about the events leading up to His 2nd coming, also parallels this Daniel 2 matter of the final beast kingdom with the "ten kings" (representing the ten toes of the feet) manifest, together, at the END of this world, under the "little horn" king, the Antichrist.

So I don't know who you are listening to with trying to apply that final beast kingdom to the time of the cross, but they have misled you terribly.
 

Davy

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And I will give you the same opportunity that u offered @Davy earlier. The above interpretations can be proven by taking one verse at a time (as I was forced to do to try and understand Daniel so that each chapter, each actor, each event spoke together and locked together like a glove).

So, please interpret verse 2:41 for me- who are the actors being discussed, what are the events mentioned, what caused these changes WITHIN chapter 2 from the previous section of verses (31-35 - Dream sequence verses)?

You simply must be able to unpack His words in these verses - all 12 chapters and not simply state - oh, they are end time events. God has given us these verses for a reason- to study them and extract what each is telling us WITHIN HIS STORY. We cannot just throw a series of verses out some 2000 years labeling them as end time events because prior scholars or theologians have done so.

Sorry CTK, but I do not buy your kind of sneaky wrapped insinuation that you offered me the same opportunity to reveal the meaning of the final Daniel 2 beast kingdom, which is NOT about Rome, nor about the time of Christ's 1st coming.

As a matter of fact, I really don't see how... you can admit the Dan.2 "stone" (which represents Lord Jesus's 2nd coming), and at the same time reject it, and instead claim that it is about His 1st coming to die on the cross?