Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[rebuilder 454]

I believe Rev. 14 to be a secondary picture of the rapture. One has to look at the end of the 70th week from the perspective of the three fall feasts that will be fulfilled throughout the latter half. The 144, 000 are gathered first, the next batch will be those of Rev. 12:14 and the last will involve the earthly gathering after Armageddon and perhaps the resurrection from Ez. 37, imo.

Rev 14 is a Jewish gathering.
That is what it says.

There is no gathering after armageddon.

 

[Douggg]

And the rapture is not the changing of body.

The rapture involves the changing of the body of the living in Christ into eternal life everlasting bodies, not just caught up.

The dead in Christ will also be changed into eternal everlasting bodies, but they are resurrected for that to happen, not raptured for that to happen. The resurrection (the dead in Christ changed)/the rapture (the living in Christ changed).

 

[Douggg]

Another one bites the dust of materialistic thinking about Apostle Paul's "spiritual body", the type body of the resurrection.


Our flesh body is not raised and put back with our soul. What did Jesus mean when He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)??

And what did Apostle Paul mean when he said, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor.15:50)

John 3:6 is talking about the spiritual rebirth of the soul - i.e. born again (verse 7).

1Corinthians15:50 is talking about the body has to be changed.

Salvation is of two parts:
1. redemption of the soul (> born again, upon believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for the atonement of our sins)
2. redemption of the body (> in the resurrection/rapture)

1Thessalonians5:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [> the resurrection/rapture]

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rapture involves the changing of the body of the living in Christ into eternal life everlasting bodies, not just caught up.

The word rapture refers to being caught up. The resurrection of the dead in Christ and changing of our bodies happen first before the rapture/catching up occurs. It's all one event, so this is a matter of semantics, but you still should learn what the word rapture actually means.

The dead in Christ will also be changed into eternal everlasting bodies, but they are resurrected for that to happen, not raptured for that to happen.

This statement seems to suggest that you do understand that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is not part of the rapture. The rapture occurs right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the bodies of all believers being changed.

The resurrection (the dead in Christ changed)/the rapture (the living in Christ changed).

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and changing of our bodies is part of one event that also includes being raptured/caught up to meet Christ in the air. But, that doesn't mean you can say that the resurrection and rapture are exactly the same thing. Again, the word rapture refers to being caught up.

 

[Davy]

John 3:6 is talking about the spiritual rebirth of the soul - i.e. born again (verse 7).

Not just being "born again" of The Spirit, but also being born of 'water' (in woman's womb). This is why Lord Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, (referring to being born of the water of woman's womb), and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit (i.e., our spirit being "born again" through Faith on Jesus Christ.) The idea of being "born again" He was only pointing to our spirit, but Nicodemus misunderstood thinking of being born a second time in woman's womb. Water baptism is thus a symbol for our spirit being born again.

1Corinthians15:50 is talking about the body has to be changed.

Salvation is of two parts:
1. redemption of the soul (> born again, upon believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for the atonement of our sins)
2. redemption of the body (> in the resurrection/rapture)

WHICH 'body' though? When our flesh dies it is simply cast off. We will never need it anymore. Apostle Paul revealed this in the 2 Corinthians 5 Scripture, where he said that if our earthly tabernacle (flesh body) were dissolved, we still have another body, not made with hands, but eternal in the Heavens (pointing to our spirit body that dwells with our soul inside our flesh body).

1. our flesh body is a SHELL that temporarily houses our spirit with soul.
2. our spirit body is our OUTWARD IMAGE IN THE HEAVENLY DIMENSION.
3. our soul is our personality, our individual.

 

[Trekson]

Rev 14 is a Jewish gathering.
That is what it says.

There is no gathering after armageddon.

I was thinking of the latter part of Rev. 14. The sheep and goat judgment is after Armageddon.

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture involves the changing of the body of the living in Christ into eternal life everlasting bodies, not just caught up.

Incorrect. Rapture means to move someone. The change of the body happens prior to the rapture. There are examples of raptures where the body was moved but not changed into immortal.

The dead in Christ will also be changed into eternal everlasting bodies, but they are resurrected for that to happen, not raptured for that to happen.

That's because the word Harpazo doesn't have anything to do with a body changing into immortal.

The resurrection (the dead in Christ changed)/the rapture (the living in Christ changed).

No, the living are changed first then moved/raptured to the clouds. Similarly the dead are changed then are brought to the clouds with Christ. Both groups are changed to immortal before the are moved/travel to a new location.

 

[Douggg]

Incorrect. Rapture means to move someone. The change of the body happens prior to the rapture. There are examples of raptures where the body was moved but not changed into immortal.

`Let's say you are standing in the street and a speeding car hits your body, is your body changed at the time of impact or after you have been moved ? The impact changes your body, not the movement.

The rapture portion of 1Thessalonians4:14-18 is not just movement.

The see the resurrection/rapture event taking placing progressively as Jesus is circling the earth shouting come forth and come up hither.

 

[ewq1938]

`Let's say you are standing in the street and a speeding car hits your body, is your body changed at the time of impact or after you have been moved ? The impact changes your body, not the movement.

There is no change of the body to immortal in such an accident.

The rapture portion of 1Thessalonians4:14-18 is not just movement.

Wrong. The Greek word is related to physical movement not to a bodily change from mortal to immortal.

 

[Douggg]

Wrong. The Greek word is related to physical movement not to a bodily change from mortal to immortal.

The uniqueness of the movement in 1Thessalonians4:17 is that it involves changing of the body from mortal to immortal, at the very beginning of the movement.

 

[ewq1938]

The uniqueness of the movement in 1Thessalonians4:17 is that it involves changing of the body from mortal to immortal, at the very beginning of the movement.

The change happens before the moving of the body just like the dead are resurrected before they are moved elsewhere. The bodily change and the rapture are written about as separate events because they are but they do happen at nearly the same time.

 

[Douggg]

The change happens before the moving of the body just like the dead are resurrected before they are moved elsewhere. The bodily change and the rapture are written about as separate events because they are but they do happen at nearly the same time.

The souls of the dead in Christ move before their bodies are resurrected as Jesus will bring their souls from heaven when he comes to resurrect their bodies from the dust of the earth.

Concerning the living in Christ, their bodies will be changed as they are being moved.

 

[ewq1938]

The souls of the dead in Christ move before their bodies are resurrected as Jesus will bring their souls from heaven when he comes to resurrect their bodies from the dust of the earth.

Paul said the new body is from heaven so they resurrect before leaving. It matches the living saints being changed physically before leaving Earth to arrive in the clouds.

Concerning the living in Christ, their bodies will be changed as they are being moved.

I think they change before moving because that's how it is with the dead.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Also, the resurrection happens and then the change of the living happens. These events precede any moving of bodies.

 

[Douggg]

Paul said the new body is from heaven so they resurrect before leaving. It matches the living saints being changed physically before leaving Earth to arrive in the clouds.

I think they change before moving because that's how it is with the dead.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Also, the resurrection happens and then the change of the living happens. These events precede any moving of bodies.

Why are you not considering what it says in 1Thessalonians4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Obviously that verse is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ. Jesus will be coming from heaven, bringing the souls of dead in Christ in heaven with him.

Do you not think that when a Christian dies, their soul goes to heaven ?

 

[ewq1938]

Why are you not considering what it says in 1Thessalonians4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

That further proves the dead resurrect in heaven like I have said.

Obviously that verse is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ.

Not just souls but body too.

Jesus will be coming from heaven, bringing the souls of dead in Christ in heaven with him.

Do you not think that when a Christian dies, their soul goes to heaven ?

Everyone believes that.

 

[Douggg]

That further proves the dead resurrect in heaven like I have said.

Not just souls but body too.

What ? No, the resurrection of the bodies does not take place in heaven. But here on earth.

When a Christian dies, their dead bodies don't go to heaven, but remain on earth and begin to decay. At open casket funerals of Christians, their dead bodies are clearly in the casket. Their souls departed to heaven.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus will descend from heaven, with a shout as He circles the earth, to reconstitute the dead bodies from the dust of the earth. And the souls that Jesus will bring with Him from heaven will be reunited with their reconstituted immortal everlasting life bodies.

 

[Douggg]

Paul said the new body is from heaven so they resurrect before leaving. It matches the living saints being changed physically before leaving Earth to arrive in the clouds.

No, in 1Corinthians15:49, Paul is simply saying when the resurrection/rapture event takes place the changed bodies will be glorified in appearance.

1Corinthains15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That further proves the dead resurrect in heaven like I have said.

Where do you come up with your nonsense? How can the bodies of the dead in Christ, which are in graves, in the earth, be resurrected in heaven? That might be the most ridiculous claim I've ever seen on this forum, which is really saying something.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That further proves the dead resurrect in heaven like I have said.




Not just souls but body too.






Everyone believes that.

Show where the dead in Christ resurrect in heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What ? No, the resurrection of the bodies does not take place in heaven. But here on earth.

When a Christian dies, their dead bodies don't go to heaven, but remain on earth and begin to decay. At open casket funerals of Christians, their dead bodies are clearly in the casket. Their souls departed to heaven.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus will descend from heaven, with a shout as He circles the earth, to reconstitute the dead bodies from the dust of the earth. And the souls that Jesus will bring with Him from heaven will be reunited with their reconstituted immortal everlasting life bodies.


View attachment 82887

Hard to believe folks are challenging you on this.

....has to be some "damage control deal" to support a belief not planned out accurately.