Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Aunty Jane]

is GIVE IT BACK a teaching of Paul ?

What is your obsession with Paul? Like all OSAS proponents, you miss something in the verses you quote....

What “works” was Paul talking about? He was speaking about “works of the Law”....not the works that Christians naturally manifest once they gain faith in Christ and understand that works of the Law are pointless without the sacrifice of Christ.....the Jews had to sacrifice weekly to obtain forgiveness under the Law, and they had to make sure that they confessed their sin and provided the necessary sacrifices under the Law, if they wanted to live with a clean conscience before God. What was the purpose of the Law? “To make sins manifest”, (Gal 3:19) as Paul said, if it wasn’t for the Law he would not have known what sin was.

So it is works of the Law that Paul spoke about.....thinking that carrying out that Law was enough to gain salvation, which we know was impossible.....a perfect law given to imperfect people could not be without transgression....but before Christ came to pay for their sins, they had to do what the Law demanded.

What do you believe are the errors of OSAS as taught here

Assurance of Salvation - doctrine.org

Salvation is a work of God.1 More than that, salvation is solely a work of God. Assurance of salvation is possible only if salvation is a work of God alone. If salvation depended upon man’s ability, assurance of salvation would require answering…

doctrine.org

It concentrates on the wrong Law....

What then is “the law of Christ”?
1 Cor 9:19-23....NASB...
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.”

I see a lot of excuses offered by those who think that they cannot lose their salvation. Just as they needed certain criteria to become a “Christian” in the first place, so they need to keep up that level of belief and conduct and strive to improve it. All Christians are a work in progress.
A Christian’s “works” therefore, are necessary but they are not works of the old covenant, Jewish Law. That was Paul’s point.

James puts it very succinctly......
“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:15-26 NASB)

Did Paul disagree with all the other Christian Bible writers?
You guys have a big problem if you think Paul preached a different gospel....you will find out the hard way.
Paul is shaking his head right now.....how on earth could they twist his words to mean the opposite of what he intended?

 

[WPM]

What is your obsession with Paul? Like all OSAS proponents, you miss something in the verses you quote....

What “works” was Paul talking about? He was speaking about “works of the Law”....not the works that Christians naturally manifest once they gain faith in Christ and understand that works of the Law are pointless without the sacrifice of Christ.....the Jews had to sacrifice weekly to obtain forgiveness under the Law, and they had to make sure that they confessed their sin and provided the necessary sacrifices under the Law, if they wanted to live with a clean conscience before God. What was the purpose of the Law? “To make sins manifest”, (Gal 3:19) as Paul said, if it wasn’t for the Law he would not have known what sin was.

So it is works of the Law that Paul spoke about.....thinking that carrying out that Law was enough to gain salvation, which we know was impossible.....a perfect law given to imperfect people could not be without transgression....but before Christ came to pay for their sins, they had to do what the Law demanded.

It concentrates on the wrong Law....

What then is “the law of Christ”?
1 Cor 9:19-23....NASB...
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.”

I see a lot of excuses offered by those who think that they cannot lose their salvation. Just as they needed certain criteria to become a “Christian” in the first place, so they need to keep up that level of belief and conduct and strive to improve it. All Christians are a work in progress.
A Christian’s “works” therefore, are necessary but they are not works of the old covenant, Jewish Law. That was Paul’s point.

James puts it very succinctly......
“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:15-26 NASB)

Did Paul disagree with all the other Christian Bible writers?
You guys have a big problem if you think Paul preached a different gospel....you will find out the hard way.
Paul is shaking his head right now.....how on earth could they twist his words to mean the opposite of what he intended?

How long is eternal by the way?

 

[Aunty Jane]

How long is eternal by the way?

What has that got to do with anything?

Strongs gives the definition of “eternal” as....

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

So something that is “everlasting” is not necessarily “eternal”.

Used as an adjective for life without end, is an error. As it does not apply to beings with a beginning....all life that came from God had a beginning......even his firstborn Son was said to be “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

Why do you ask?

 

[WPM]

What has that got to do with anything?

Strongs gives the definition of “eternal” as....

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

So something that is “everlasting” is not necessarily “eternal”.

Used as an adjective for life without end, is an error. As it does not apply to beings with a beginning....all life that came from God had a beginning......even his firstborn Son was said to be “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

Why do you ask?

The life within the elect is everlasting. PTL!

 

[Aunty Jane]

The life within the elect is everlasting. PTL!

Yes...only the elect get to be rewarded with immortal spirit life in heaven....that’s not just “everlasting” life, “immortality” means “the power of an indestructible life”.....it means that the elect attain to a life higher than angels. Which is why they will judge angels....and us.

The rest of mankind will serve God on earth, rewarded with everlasting mortal life, as God first intended for them....why do you think we are here? God did not go to all this trouble to simply allow the devil and his cronies to ruin it....what God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11) How does he do that?

What is the role of the elect? If they are “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom, (Rev 20:6)...who are their subjects? For whom do they act as rulers and priests? Not all Christians are going to heaven because we would then have all chiefs and no Indians....if you catch my meaning...imagine a government where everyone was a president or king....as well as a subject.....would it work?

What is the big picture for you? Why are we subjected to a life we didn’t want, or ask for? Where is God in a world ruled by the devil, with his permission? (Luke 4:5-7) Why allow the devil to wreak such havoc?

How does it all end, with God’s will “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

Do you know?

 

[OneGospel]

What is your obsession with Paul? Like all OSAS proponents, you miss something in the verses you quote....

What “works” was Paul talking about? He was speaking about “works of the Law”....not the works that Christians naturally manifest once they gain faith in Christ and understand that works of the Law are pointless without the sacrifice of Christ.....the Jews had to sacrifice weekly to obtain forgiveness under the Law, and they had to make sure that they confessed their sin and provided the necessary sacrifices under the Law, if they wanted to live with a clean conscience before God. What was the purpose of the Law? “To make sins manifest”, (Gal 3:19) as Paul said, if it wasn’t for the Law he would not have known what sin was.

So it is works of the Law that Paul spoke about.....thinking that carrying out that Law was enough to gain salvation, which we know was impossible.....a perfect law given to imperfect people could not be without transgression....but before Christ came to pay for their sins, they had to do what the Law demanded.

It concentrates on the wrong Law....

What then is “the law of Christ”?
1 Cor 9:19-23....NASB...
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.”

I see a lot of excuses offered by those who think that they cannot lose their salvation. Just as they needed certain criteria to become a “Christian” in the first place, so they need to keep up that level of belief and conduct and strive to improve it. All Christians are a work in progress.
A Christian’s “works” therefore, are necessary but they are not works of the old covenant, Jewish Law. That was Paul’s point.

James puts it very succinctly......
“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:15-26 NASB)

Did Paul disagree with all the other Christian Bible writers?
You guys have a big problem if you think Paul preached a different gospel....you will find out the hard way.
Paul is shaking his head right now.....how on earth could they twist his words to mean the opposite of what he intended?

What is your obsession with Paul? Like all OSAS proponents, you miss something in the verses you quote....

What “works” was Paul talking about? He was speaking about “works of the Law”....not the works that Christians naturally manifest once they gain faith in Christ and understand that works of the Law are pointless without the sacrifice of Christ.....the Jews had to sacrifice weekly to obtain forgiveness under the Law, and they had to make sure that they confessed their sin and provided the necessary sacrifices under the Law, if they wanted to live with a clean conscience before God. What was the purpose of the Law? “To make sins manifest”, (Gal 3:19) as Paul said, if it wasn’t for the Law he would not have known what sin was.

So it is works of the Law that Paul spoke about.....thinking that carrying out that Law was enough to gain salvation, which we know was impossible.....a perfect law given to imperfect people could not be without transgression....but before Christ came to pay for their sins, they had to do what the Law demanded.

It concentrates on the wrong Law....

What then is “the law of Christ”?
1 Cor 9:19-23....NASB...
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.”

I see a lot of excuses offered by those who think that they cannot lose their salvation. Just as they needed certain criteria to become a “Christian” in the first place, so they need to keep up that level of belief and conduct and strive to improve it. All Christians are a work in progress.
A Christian’s “works” therefore, are necessary but they are not works of the old covenant, Jewish Law. That was Paul’s point.

James puts it very succinctly......
“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:15-26 NASB)

Did Paul disagree with all the other Christian Bible writers?
You guys have a big problem if you think Paul preached a different gospel....you will find out the hard way.
Paul is shaking his head right now.....how on earth could they twist his words to mean the opposite of what he intended?

I asked another poster is GIVE IT BACK a teaching of Paul ?
For discussion, list the verses where Paul teaches about GIVE IT BACK
No verses, no discussion

 

[OneGospel]

Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I know.
You have to invoke the "hyper Pauline's Holy Spirit gamble."
(If Hebrews was not written by Paul, then the Holy Spirit has only a 50% chance of getting it correct, since Paul was sent to correct the rest of bible that the Holy Spirit got wrong.)


How convenient that a hyper Pauline's skinny bible can void every verse that offends them.

The Bible does not teach that Paul wrote Hebrews.
What are the verses where Paul teaches GIVE IT BACK ?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I asked another poster is GIVE IT BACK a teaching of Paul ?
For discussion, list the verses where Paul teaches about GIVE IT BACK
No verses, no discussion

Discussion with you is impossible....I won’t be discussing anything further.....you have your own rules of engagement apparently, and will only discuss things on your own terms....you ignore everything that doesn’t come from Paul...I’m sure he is shaking his head at you....

I can only ask....why on earth are you here?

 

[shepherdsword]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

Don't flame me if I borrow this from time to time....lol

 

[OneGospel]

Discussion with you is impossible....I won’t be discussing anything further.....you have your own rules of engagement apparently, and will only discuss things on your own terms....you ignore everything that doesn’t come from Paul...I’m sure he is shaking his head at you....

I can only ask....why on earth are you here?

What verse teaches that GOD made the earth and Heaven ?
Polite response - Gen 1v1
Rude response - word-salad of opinions.
Want discussion with me ? Be polite

 

[Aunty Jane]

What verse teaches that GOD made the earth and Heaven ?
Polite response - Gen 1v1
Rude response - word-salad of opinions.
Want discussion with me ? Be polite

Sorry, but your rules are hardly polite when they stifle open discussion and make demands when none are required.....when you frustrate people they will not want to interact with you.....I am one of them....just sayin’.
I won’t trouble you again....

 

[OneGospel]

Sorry, but your rules are hardly polite when they stifle open discussion and make demands when none are required.....when you frustrate people they will not want to interact with you.....I am one of them....just sayin’.
I won’t trouble you again....

When you respond with verses as asked for I will happily discuss them with you otherwise spend your time with others

 

[WPM]

Yes...only the elect get to be rewarded with immortal spirit life in heaven....that’s not just “everlasting” life, “immortality” means “the power of an indestructible life”.....it means that the elect attain to a life higher than angels. Which is why they will judge angels....and us.

The rest of mankind will serve God on earth, rewarded with everlasting mortal life, as God first intended for them....why do you think we are here? God did not go to all this trouble to simply allow the devil and his cronies to ruin it....what God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11) How does he do that?

What is the role of the elect? If they are “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom, (Rev 20:6)...who are their subjects? For whom do they act as rulers and priests? Not all Christians are going to heaven because we would then have all chiefs and no Indians....if you catch my meaning...imagine a government where everyone was a president or king....as well as a subject.....would it work?

What is the big picture for you? Why are we subjected to a life we didn’t want, or ask for? Where is God in a world ruled by the devil, with his permission? (Luke 4:5-7) Why allow the devil to wreak such havoc?

How does it all end, with God’s will “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

Do you know?

What are you talking about? There is only one people of God. There is no apartheid amongst the people of God. When Jesus come we populate the new eternal regenerated earth. Simple!

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Bible does not teach that Paul wrote Hebrews.
What are the verses where Paul teaches GIVE IT BACK ?
View attachment 82990

Hebrews is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
Only Paul is?

But invoke the pauline 50-50 rule.
It is 50% possible that Paul wrote it.
So pretend God is half right.
Stop worshipping paul.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Bible does not teach that Paul wrote Hebrews.
What are the verses where Paul teaches GIVE IT BACK ?
View attachment 82990

1 Tim 1

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Back to the pauline drawing board .
PAUL, AS WE SEE , GAVE THEM BACK.

AHEM...Warning Timothy that SHIPWRECK is the outcome of leaving the faith.

What will you do now?
Claim Timothy was not saved, or the other 2 believers Paul points out??

Osas is circular.
Not biblical.

Believers turning from the faith is documented .
What do think the covenant with God is?
Robots with no choice?

There you go.
A passage FROM PAUL, NOT the other "evil" bible books.

The 2 Holy Spirit hyperpauline ridiculous dynamic.
Only the real "Holy Spirit" operated in Paul.
The fake Holy Spirit operated in Jesus, Peter, and John huh?

The non pauline books are a trap , huh?

 

[Trekson]

Don't flame me if I borrow this from time to time....lol

Go for it!

 

[OneGospel]

Hebrews is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
Only Paul is?

But invoke the pauline 50-50 rule.
It is 50% possible that Paul wrote it.
So pretend God is half right.
Stop worshipping paul.

The Bible does not teach that Paul wrote Hebrews, prove me wrong.

 

[OneGospel]

1 Tim 1

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Back to the pauline drawing board .
PAUL, AS WE SEE , GAVE THEM BACK.

AHEM...Warning Timothy that SHIPWRECK is the outcome of leaving the faith.

What will you do now?
Claim Timothy was not saved, or the other 2 believers Paul points out??

Osas is circular.
Not biblical.

Believers turning from the faith is documented .
What do think the covenant with God is?
Robots with no choice?

There you go.
A passage FROM PAUL, NOT the other "evil" bible books.

The 2 Holy Spirit hyperpauline ridiculous dynamic.
Only the real "Holy Spirit" operated in Paul.
The fake Holy Spirit operated in Jesus, Peter, and John huh?

The non pauline books are a trap , huh?

How does 1 Tim 1v18 teach that a believer can GIVE BACK HIS SALVATION ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

How does 1 Tim 1v18 teach that a believer can GIVE BACK HIS SALVATION ?

"Shipwreck".
Unless you think you can be "shipwrecked" without a ship.
Read it again without preconceived doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Bible does not teach that Paul wrote Hebrews, prove me wrong.

View attachment 83010

Just do the 50-50 thingy and hope the Holy Spirit is wrong.