Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Trekson]

Can you explain how that could even be possible?

G2248
ἡμᾶς
hēmas
hay-mas'
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.
Total KJV occurrences: 180

Check out bible gateway or some place similar where one can read a verse in 'all" translations and see how the majority of them was corrected it.

 

[Trekson]

No sir. Matthew 24:29-31 is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven (as they are already in heaven) and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. The 144,000 are the first fruits of this harvest from the earth. We can see the results of this harvest in Revelation 15 (which is another view of Revelation 7).

Those raptured are of the 12 tribes as they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Israel, those that flee to a place of protection, remain on the earth during the wrath of God. The Jews around the world, which are the seed of the woman are raptured from the earth. If the great tribulation was not cut short there would be no flesh alive that would be raptured to heaven. All that would be raptured would come from the grave. For the elect sake, the great tribulation is cut short.

All return to heaven (the Church and the raptured 12 tribes) for the marriage supper of the Lamb. All remain in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. After one year the armies of heaven come to the earth for Armageddon.


They are the Church.

Christ has returned as we can see the 24 elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Most of that is supposition about what folks "think" it is saying. It doesn't mean they are correct.

 

[The Light]

Most of that is supposition about what folks "think" it is saying. It doesn't mean they are correct.

If you put it all together, Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. The 144,000 from twelve tribes are the first fruits of this harvest. Therefore the harvest has to be of the 12 tribes. This is further proved by the FACT that they are singing the song of Moses in Revelation 15.

Further, we know Jesus has come before the seals are opened as we have 24 elders with crowns.

 

[The Light]

It is not. There is one end times event where the saints will be changed and caught up/raptured to the clouds. It happens one time.

The only way it is possible to draw this conclusion is to intentionally ignore common sense and scriptural FACT.

For you to believe that there is only one rapture that happens after the tribulation means that you have to make the 6th seal the 7th seal. Completely illogical. You have to ignore Gods wrath and pretend that the tribulation and wrath are the same event which causes you to ignore scripture. We are not appointed to wrath. No believers are appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Then you have to ignore this verse. First, you have to claim that it is the unrighteous that are taken away which is incorrect. But that doesn't even matter. When Jesus comes for the Church, it is life as normal..........eating, drinking, and marrying. And somehow these facts are ignored. All those1st six trumpets and 1st 6 vials are not life as normal. And that doesn't event count when the AOD is set up and Christians are hunted down.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

There is a post trib rapture no doubt. But that rapture occurs at the 6th seal, not the 7th seal, as the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Because two raptures of the saints is unbiblical.

Grain and fruit harvests.
Two raptures.
That is how the 144,000 become firstfruits.
The Jewish harvest ( fruit harvest) is years after the rapture of the church.
The jews at the time of the pretrib rapture are actually apart from Christ.
They are raptured and believe when they see him in the clouds. At Rev 14:14...during the trib.
The Jews seek a sign.
They are given it.

The first miracle had to be at a wedding.
Wine miraculously made.
The declaration was " you saved the best for last"
The Jews come in last to heaven....to the wedding feast.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me just ask you this.....over whom did the kings and priests in Israel preside?
Was the whole nation eligible to be “kings and priests” regardless of which tribe they belonged to?

Did they have “all chiefs and no Indians”?
The nation of Israel and its rulership and priesthood prefigured another one....the heavenly one that Jesus came to teach them about.....just as some were eligible for rulership and priesthood, others were not. What does that picture? How is it that now these “kings and priests” can be from any tribe of spiritual Israel?
Like Jesus, they are specially appointed by God to assume both roles....”in the manner of Melchizedek.”

What is revealed in the Revelation?
John sees angels who are holding back the destruction that is to come upon the earth in this “time of the end”, prophesied by Daniel.

Rev 7:2-4...ESV..
“Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel”.

These servants of God receive a “sealing” and they are also a specific number. This is spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God” who are made up of both natural Jews and Gentiles from all nations. (Gal 6:16; Acts 10:24-25) These are “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits”.......so, to the agricultural nation of Israel, what were the “firstfruits”?
They knew that firstfruits were the best of the crop, and they also knew that there would be a secondary crop to follow, not as good in quality as the firstfruits, but still a valuable part of the crop, harvested later.

Rev 14:1-5...John says....
“Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. . . .and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.” (ESV)

This is not the political nation of today’s “Israel”, that is very much a part of the world and its bloodshed ....this is a heavenly Mt Zion......

Heb 12:22-23...Paul wrote....
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”. (ESV)

This Jerusalem is heavenly, so Mount Zion is also heavenly.....not an earthly location.

And those who are “enrolled in the heavens” are “the assembly of the firstborn” those who are Christ’s brothers....chosen to rule with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (Rev 20:6)

So then, what does John see next.....?
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”. . . .Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “Therefore they are before the throne of God,and serve him day and night in his temple;and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them,nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water,and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev 7: 9-10, 13-17 Rev 21:2-4 ESV)

There are clearly two groups here....one numbered and one unnumbered. This would make no sense unless the numbers were literal.
The group who are invited to heaven are chosen by God, so they will be the best rulers that humans have ever had on this planet......and the ones who will be their earthly subjects will rejoice daily in their administration of the “government” that is placed on the shoulders of “the Prince of Peace”.

There is indeed very good evidence for the existence of the two groups, who both owe their salvation to God and the Lamb...no mention of the third party however.
As John 17 :3 says we have to “know the only true God AND the one he sent Jesus Christ”.....why do we not need to “know” the Holy Spirit?

You seem to have large holes in the story you prefer....there are no holes in the story Jesus told.....it was he who presented the Revelation, which he said was from God, not himself. (Rev 1:1)

Excellent job of avoiding the scriptures I used to prove my point. Just continue to cherry pick scripture while avoiding the scriptures like those I posted then, if you insist. The scriptures I posted indicate that all believers are priests and kings right now. You didn't even attempt to address those because you are brainwashed into only using certain scriptures that you twist to fit your false doctrine while you ignore all the rest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There's all kinds of bases. Jesus said "Happy are the meek, since they will inherit the Earth." See Psalm 37:11,29.

What does this mean? What is your point here?

I'm not gonna argue with you. I don't argue over God's Word. I just like to present the scriptures and reason on them.

You can't argue with me because you're in over your head here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No Scripture says so.....Jesus called the Father his God even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12)
That means that an equal part of God worships himself.....you don’t have a blind spot with that observation?

So he talks to himself as well? And prays to himself too?
The Father can know things the Son doesn’t? (Matt 24:37-39)
He can serve as his Father’s High Priest because he is also God? Are you hearing yourself?

Read on and see what the next verse says...

“But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (ESV)

Greek phrasing is also at work here as that first part of verse 8 should be translated...”God is your throne forever” which is in keeping with what the next verse says, rather than contradicting it. Many verses are translated to support a doctrine that Bible does not teach.
Does God have companions?

When Jesus walked the earth, what do you think the Jews would have called him.....? The leader of a cult! Don’t listen to him because he disagrees with what our leaders have taught us.....sound familiar?
What cult do youbelong to? Do you disagree with what the churches teach? Are you also a cult leader? A church of one?

And for good reason...here again is a very poor translation of the Greek....
Correctly translated, it says the oppositeof what this translation suggests....

The ESV, not the NWT says.....
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

When you take those verses apart and examine them closely you will see the error......
Just the highlighted parts tell the real story......not the distorted ones that bad translations do. Twisting the words to mean what they never did.

See what it really says.....Jesus did NOT consider equality with God as something to be grasped.

As a human, he humbled himself, because he was a magnificent spirit being in heaven at his Father’s side since his creation. (Rev 3:14)....and he was also obedient to his Father to the point of death, which shows that he was not in any way equal with his own God. If he was God he was also immortal, which means he could not die the same death as Adam...all Jesus needed to be was “sinless” to pay the price of redemption....which was an equal payment to the debt. God is not an equal payment.

If Jesus has a name given to him by his Father that is above every name then he would also be above the name of his God and Father who is identified in Psalm 83:18 as Yahweh. Nowhere in all of Scripture is Jesus ever called “Yahweh” who is “the Most High over all the earth.” No one can be higher.

Bowing the knee to Jesus is obeisance, not worship. It is the same word in Greek but is only worship when it refers to Yahweh. Angels did not “worship” Jesus and neither did the magi.

And every tongue is confessing that Jesus is “Lord” not “God”...and it is not to his own glory but to his Father’s.

It is apparent that you read Scripture that way you want to, not as it is written.

You see what errors you assume to be true? Jesus was not 200% of anything. In order to pay the ransom demanded, all he needed to be was a sinless 100% human. Immortals cannot die, so if Jesus didn’t die the ransom is not paid, and we are without hope.

Again you read without study or comprehension....what does the word “theos” mean in Greek? It means any god or goddess, even false gods like satan. (2 Cor 4:4)
It can also mean anyone who is authorised as God’s representative, as the judges were in Israel.
Yahweh called those Judges, “gods” (theos) himself. (John 10:31-36)

What did Jesus call himself?...”the Son of God”...but never “God the Son”....that is a Catholic invention.

You will notice that creation came “through” the Son......and Col 1:15-16 also says that all creation came from the Father, but through the Son....

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (ESV)

If you work “through” someone else, that is an agent...and we all know what an agent is......real estate agents and agents in the entertainment industry represent their clients.......Christ’s agency is mistaken for him being the Creator, when he is never given that title.

It was the Word who became flesh, not God. Yahweh was not in a position to pay the price of redemption....so he sent the only one who could.....His faithful Son who had been at his Father’s side in the creation of all things.

If John 1:1 was correctly translated the trinity would be shot down immediately.
It should read....”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine.”

No trinity there....and John 1:18 confirms it...

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB)

If “no one has seen God at any time”, then Jesus is not God.....thousands saw Jesus....he is the one who “explained Him”....he is “monogenes theos”...”the only begotten god”....who occupies a special place in his Father’s heavenly family. Most trinitarians shy away from that truth because they cannot explain how God can be “begotten”.......any one “begotten” in the Bible had to have a ‘begetter’ who existed before them and caused them to come into existence.

The Son is His God’s most trusted “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27, 30) The Almighty cannot be his own servant.

Too many errors in translation...so if you don’t do your careful research, these details will escape you.

So pathetic. You have to resort to acting as if you understand Greek better than all of the translators (LOL!) in order to keep your false doctrine afloat. You insist on keeping the scales over your eyes, so as long as that is the case I know there's nothing I can do to get you to acknowledge the truth of this matter. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) and stop relying on your own faulty wisdom. Or should I say the faulty wisdom of those who have brainwashed you.

 

[The Light]

They are raptured and believe when they see him in the clouds. At Rev 14:14...during the trib.

I agree with the rest but the 12 tribes across the earth believe after their blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture before the great tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

Pre-trib for me but always prepared to listen to why others think differently.

I prefer the idea of pretrib but I do not see it taught in the bible.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This gathering is another way to speak of the rapture. Christ used this same language:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that both speak of the coming of Christ and the rapture which is the gathering of the saints. Because pretribbers are so loyal to their doctrine, they are forced to deny the rapture is spoken of in Matthew 24 despite that it clearly is described.

Christ places the Rapture after the GT ends, which is Post-trib. This matches what Paul said about the timing of the Rapture. Never, not a single time, is the rapture placed before the GT.

 

[ewq1938]

Check out bible gateway or some place similar where one can read a verse in 'all" translations and see how the majority of them was corrected it.

I already have tools that can do that. There is no correction because the Greek word means "us".

 

[ewq1938]

If you put it all together, Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest.

No, he comes at the 7th trump for that rapture/harvest. The 6th seal simply describes events that happen at the same time but those events do not happen when the seal is opened. There is a huge dif between prophecy of events and fulfillment of events.

 

[ewq1938]

The only way it is possible to draw this conclusion is to intentionally ignore common sense and scriptural FACT.

For you to believe that there is only one rapture that happens after the tribulation means that you have to make the 6th seal the 7th seal.

You do not correctly understand the seals. They are prophecy of future events. You also add events into the 7th seal that have nothing to do with the seal.

 

[Trekson]

If you put it all together, Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. The 144,000 from twelve tribes are the first fruits of this harvest. Therefore the harvest has to be of the 12 tribes. This is further proved by the FACT that they are singing the song of Moses in Revelation 15.

Further, we know Jesus has come before the seals are opened as we have 24 elders with crowns.

The 24 elders are most likely a hierarchy of angels. There is nothing that suggests the 144,000 are raptured. It doesn't imply the 144,000 sing the song of Moses. That would be the 5th seal martyrs according to the description given in Rev. 15.

 

[Trekson]

I already have tools that can do that. There is no correction because the Greek word means "us".

There is a term called textual variance. The majority of the ancient texts lends itself to the fact that word "us" was changed from "them". If you look at the facts surrounding the verse. Who is singing? the four beasts and 24 elders. We know the four beasts are celestial beings w/no need of redemption and because of that that 24 elders must be celestial beings as well. It seems like it's mostly "KJ only" folks are the ones who insist that the word MUST be US, because if the word "them" is correct, then it blows their pre-trib rapture scenario to smithereens.

 

[ewq1938]

There is a term called textual variance. The majority of the ancient texts lends itself to the fact that word "us" was changed from "them". If you look at the facts surrounding the verse. Who is singing? the four beasts and 24 elders. We know the four beasts are celestial beings w/no need of redemption and because of that that 24 elders must be celestial beings as well. It seems like it's mostly "KJ only" folks are the ones who insist that the word MUST be US, because if the word "them" is correct, then it blows their pre-trib rapture scenario to smithereens.

Any translation using "them" is still referring to the same people that other translations use the word "us" for. There is no change in who is being addressed. "us" is the better choice because that is what the Greek word means but "them" is fine as long as one understands the same people are being referred to.

 

[The Light]

Because pretribbers are so loyal to their doctrine, they are forced to deny the rapture is spoken of in Matthew 24 despite that it clearly is described.

Christ places the Rapture after the GT ends, which is Post-trib. This matches what Paul said about the timing of the Rapture. Never, not a single time, is the rapture placed before the GT.

And yet, when we understand that there are two raptures, it completely clears the muddy. There is a rapture after the great tribulation, which would be post trib. But who is raptured? Those raptured are singing the song of Moses. They are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

There is a pretrib rapture for the Church, and then blindness is removed from part of Israel.

 

[The Light]

No, he comes at the 7th trump for that rapture/harvest. The 6th seal simply describes events that happen at the same time but those events do not happen when the seal is opened. There is a huge dif between prophecy of events and fulfillment of events.

Sorry, I cannot comprehend this logic as it is illogical.

It is clear by the Word of God that when the 6th seal is opened, Jesus will return for a harvest, and it is the second harvest. This event is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. However, ALL RETURN TO HEAVEN FOR THE MARRIAGE SUPPER. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The logic of pretending that the 7th seal is 30 minutes of silence in heaven and then ignoring the trumpets and vials..........again, is illogical.

 

[The Light]

You do not correctly understand the seals.

No, I do not understand your logic.

They are prophecy of future events.

Of course, the seals are prophecy of future events. When the seal is actually opened, the event will occur. It's simple.

You also add events into the 7th seal that have nothing to do with the seal.

Could you explain what events I add to the 7th seal? I don't know of anything that I am adding.

 

[The Light]

The 24 elders are most likely a hierarchy of angels.

They are elders, not angels.

There is nothing that suggests the 144,000 are raptured.

I don't believe that you understand what first fruits are. First fruits are harvested first and presented to the priest, or in this case Jesus. They are before the throne of God and are redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

It doesn't imply the 144,000 sing the song of Moses.

Correct. It does not imply that the 144,000 are singing the song of Moses. The 144,000 are singing a new song before the throne and no man can learn the song but the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Those that are singing the song of Moses, sing this song before throne in THE MAIN HARVEST. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. Here is the main harvest........which is the second harvest.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is another view of this harvest. Again, this is the second harvest and it occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That would be the 5th seal martyrs according to the description given in Rev. 15.

The 5th seal martyrs are going to be mostly Jews. The Church will already be in heaven before any seals are opened. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Contrary to popular belief there is only 3.5 years left in the 70th week of Daniel.

So the final week will begin when a 7-year covenant with many is made. The Church will not be raptured before the week begins as Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood. The day of the seven, Noah was loading the animals and we don't know what day Noah was sealed in the ark. When the Church is raptured, the fullness of the Gentiles will be come in. Then blindness will be removed from part of Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The great tribulation is about the Jews. Any Gentile raptured during the great tribulation will be the poor and the stranger, meaning they have not heard the Gospel prior to the tribulation.