Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[David in NJ]

You did a beautiful job in that.
End times will never be understood without that dynamic.

There are 3 horses in the pasture
You went and found one of them.
And then declare the other two don't exist because you didn't find them.

There are three horses in your 'Baptist mentalist' head/theology!!!

STOP feeding on dead grass that has no nutrition and only yields death!

Follow the Chief Shepherd who leads us to green pasture = His words are Living, Spirit and Eternal Life"

 

[David in NJ]

Pretend Rev 14:14 is something other than what it is.
Just do that.
...and keep doing it.

Ignore Revelation 1:8 and 7:14

Keep doing that and you will remain decieved by the doctrines of men = baptists, dispensationalists and pre-fibbers

 

[David in NJ]

This took a little work to tackle. The whole gist of Eph. 5 is summed up in vs. 30 where the "one flesh" isn't stressing marriage, it's a metaphor using the relationship between the man and the wife to explain the unity we already have with Christ and should have with each other and it is more accurately is explained in other texts as "being the body of Christ"! I have a resource book I use called the "Englishman's Greek Concordance of the NT. This book expands upon the Strong's by not only showing how many times a word is used but in how many different ways it is used. The word "married" as used in Rom. 7:3-4, G1096 is the only time in over 800 scriptures to be translated as "married". In most cases, it is translated as, "came to pass", "be", "fulfilled", and "was". Out of 62 translations "married" is used in 9 of them. The main way it is used is as "belonged to" or "united", or "joined". In describing the body of Christ, the word "joined" and those akin to it are the words most often used. So, No neither of those passages are actually describing marriage, they are using marriage to describe unity. The word that is normally used to describe "marry" is G1060. 2 Cor. 11 the word "espoused" is G718 which means "joint". The other two times this word is used it is G3423 as in "being betrothed". As you can see, in all three of your examples the KJ translation is misleading in its word selection. In these examples, only one thing is being spoken of and that is the word unity, not marriage.

The "one flesh" is EXACTLY stressing and directing/commanding to Marriage.

So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh.
And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him.

And the man said:
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for out of man she was taken.”

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

 

[Trekson]

By casting down the bride and groom dynamic of Christ and His bride, it tells me you have sat under mental teachers.

I attend a mens bible study 3 times a week.
They are all baptists...( mentalists)
I have brought the bride and Groom dynamic up several times and it goes completely over their heads.
By casting down allegory, you end up with;
1...Ruth becomes a history book with no allegorical meaning.
2...Song of Solomon...the same.
3...The virgin parable becomes a tedious fog.
4...the book of Hebrews becomes one dimensional, and nothing is gained from the deep allegory.

You are gambling away a ton of revelation.

Instead of dismissing the very heart of heaven, it might be wise to heed the deeper things of God.

BTW...The final words of the bible, are the bride and the spirit calling out to the groom.

Heaven's parting words are the bride of Christ centered
Christ's first miracle was at a wedding.
Water transformed via an impossibility into wine.
It was declared" you saved the best for last...pointing to the final harvest of the Jews.....ahem....the wayward wife.
Pointing to Gomer...and thatvis pointing to the Jews..God's wife.

If the bride of Christ is off the table, then the wayward wife, Gomer/ God's covenant Jews,must be also. (To be consistent)

Now you're getting closer, God has and will only ever have one wife and as Christ and God are "one", so is their wife, they will never have "two" wives. Israel is the bride/wife. No divorce was ever ratified, so it was threatened but never happened. The church united w/ Christ as one, head and body are the "bridegroom".

 

[Trekson]

The "one flesh" is EXACTLY stressing and directing/commanding to Marriage.

So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh.
And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him.

And the man said:
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for out of man she was taken.”

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Again, metaphors, unless you think they're walking around glued to each other like conjoined twins! It's their unity in thought, mind and deed that makes them "one flesh". A metaphor is: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest (not confirm) a likeness.

 

[David in NJ]

Again, metaphors, unless you think they're walking around glued to each other like conjoined twins! It's their unity in thought, mind and deed that makes them "one flesh". A metaphor is: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest (not confirm) a likeness.

#1 - God's words of TRUTH that actually took place in REAL Time with a REAL flesh and blood man created in His Image by which the flesh and blood woman came into being.

Believe His Word or reject, make excuses, rely on flawed human intellect............the list of unbelief goes on and on!

#2 - God uses REAL people to create metaphors of TRUTH = you will either believe or rely on flawed human intellect.

 

[WPM]

The Word is clear enough.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. It is the second coming. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. Those of Israel that fled to a place of protection remain on the earth during the wrath of God. After the angels gather the elect, all return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7, some of whom come out of great tribulation. After the marriage supper all follow Jesus as part of the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

Of course it is the second coming. There are various descriptions of that one climactic event. Revelation consists of a number of recaps from different angles.

 

[WPM]

You did a beautiful job in that.
End times will never be understood without that dynamic.

There are 3 horses in the pasture
You went and found one of them.
And then declare the other two don't exist because you didn't find them.

Your theology is cryptic, unintelligible and unscriptural.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This took a little work to tackle.

You mean it took a lot of work for you to find a way to deny what Ephesians 5:22-33 and other scriptures clearly indicate, which is that the church is the bride of Christ.

 

[Trekson]

#1 - God's words of TRUTH that actually took place in REAL Time with a REAL flesh and blood man created in His Image by which the flesh and blood woman came into being.

Believe His Word or reject, make excuses, rely on flawed human intellect............the list of unbelief goes on and on!

#2 - God uses REAL people to create metaphors of TRUTH = you will either believe or rely on flawed human intellect.

I rely on what the words actually mean and how they align w/ the rest of scripture not what someone thought they should have meant centuries ago that isn't backed up by the rest of His word.

 

[The Light]

You will not find, anywhere in Scripture, two raptures.

Only ONE 1st Coming of Christ = Isaiah chapter 53 , John chapter 3

Only ONE 2nd Coming of Christ = Hebrews 9:28 , Matthew chapter 24 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , Revelation 1:8

John 10:14-16

 

[The Light]

If one is taking the feasts of the Lord into consideration

So you agree............

Yes, two harvests. The first one was Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection, so that's already been fullfilled.

The first fruits with Christ rising has happened, but the harvest of Gentiles has not happened.

If one considers a typical harvest, for the season there is "one" harvest but in three timings a first harvest, middle harvest and the last harvest before things go back to seed. So, "one" harvest remains. Normally, grains are planted in the winter and harvested in the spring, but fruits normally just harvest in the fall, a fig tree is just a rare exception, so one can celebrate it's harvest twice thus it lines up as a spring harvest and a fall harvest. Again, only one harvest remains, the 'fall" harvest which is part of Sukkot, aka,the Feast of Tabernacles.

There has been no spring harvest of the dead in Christ.
There has been no summer harvest of the alive that remain.
There has been no first fruits of the 12 tribes.
There has been no harvest of the 12 tribes.

Regarding Noah and Lot the passages aren't pointing out different timings of anything, just that in both examples men had become degenerate thus the "need" for judgment as will be the case for this final judgment of God of this dispensation. You'll have to provide scrip showing the difference of the comings as you described. In the case of Rev. 20:4, they are the latter fruit of the first resurrection. If you would like to discuss just the 144,000 in a little more detail, I'm open to it. I see them a little differently but maybe the truth could be a combo of the two views.

As the days of Noah will occur for the Church. Noah is in the ark before the flood.

As the days of Lot is for the 12 tribes across the earth. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

 

[The Light]

Of course it is the second coming. There are various descriptions of that one climactic event. Revelation consists of a number of recaps from different angles.

The second coming is not what you think it is. When Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth, Jesus remains in the clouds.

All that are gathered from heaven and earth return to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the 7th seal is opened and the one year wrath of God begins, meaning it will be one year and then Armageddon will happen.

In your view, you want to skip the 7th seal happening AFTER the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

How many folds did JESUS Say will BE at His 2nd Coming.................two or One

There will be two folds at His second coming. This is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The first fold, the Church, is gathered from heaven and the second fold the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest.

Both folds return to heaven and become one fold..........the great multitude. This multitude remains in heaven for one year during the wrath of God. At the end of one year, the great multitude will be part of the armies of heaven that are going to the earth at Armageddon.

 

[David in NJ]

I rely on what the words actually mean and how they align w/ the rest of scripture not what someone thought they should have meant centuries ago that isn't backed up by the rest of His word.

Always rely on the Word of God

LORD JESUS words - Matthew 19:3-6
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Apostle Paul's words from the HOLY SPIRIT - 1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her?
For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

 

[David in NJ]

John 10:14-16

I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

How many folds did JESUS Say there will be at His 2nd Coming in John 10:14-16

 

[The Light]

I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

How many folds did JESUS Say there will be at His 2nd Coming in John 10:14-16

The sheep of the first fold that knows Him is the Church. When He comes for the second fold who are the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth He will bring the first fold with Him as this is the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven and become one fold, which is the great multitude. Two folds into one fold.

 

[David in NJ]

The sheep of the first fold that knows Him is the Church. When He comes for the second fold who are the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth He will bring the first fold with Him as this is the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven and become one fold, which is the great multitude. Two folds into one fold.

According to the LORD, the first fold are the Jews/12 apostles & Pentecost as Promised:
a.)Genesis 18:1-15 and chapters 21-22
b.) Jeremiah 31:31-37
c.) Matthew chapter 1
d.) Luke chapter
e.) John 4:21-22
f.) Matt 15:21-26
g.) Acts chapters 1 thru 3
h.) Acts chapter 13
i.) Romans 1:16
j.) Romans chapters 9 thru 11

 

[WPM]

The second coming is not what you think it is. When Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth, Jesus remains in the clouds.

All that are gathered from heaven and earth return to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the 7th seal is opened and the one year wrath of God begins, meaning it will be one year and then Armageddon will happen.

In your view, you want to skip the 7th seal happening AFTER the 6th seal.

Same event. What you are describing is in Rev 19. Is that a 3rd coming in your theology? This occurs way after the 6th and 7th seal.

 

[WPM]

The sheep of the first fold that knows Him is the Church. When He comes for the second fold who are the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth He will bring the first fold with Him as this is the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven and become one fold, which is the great multitude. Two folds into one fold.

There is only one fold. Dispies have double vision. They cannot see right. They duplicate everything they see in the sacred text to justify their false teaching. There are no words that exemplify the union Christ made between the old covenant saints and the new covenant believers than what Jesus told to His Jewish followers prior to the cross, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

Union with Christ is an organic relationship that brings us into a tightly interwoven corporate body. A person cannot be saved except they are in union with Christ. Being in union with Christ brings us into union with God’s people.

We have been grafted into the faithful remnant of believing Israel. We are now one with them. There is no racial distinction any more or apartheid amongst the people of God. God looks at the Church as one flock, one fold and one people.