Separation of Church and State a Red Herring.

[Brakelite]

The current controversy over the separation of church and state is a distraction, and not the real issue.

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[Brakelite]

The conversation coming from the more Christian nationalist side of the spectrum is centered currently on the argument, "they're is no separation of church and state in the constitution". That may be correct, depending on your interpretation of course. However, what it does say seems to be getting lost in the debate, if not deliberately ignored, and is not a political argument as the separation argument is, but biblical, and a reflection of the actual intent of your founders... protecting minorities from persecution at the hands of the majority as determined in the Declaration of Independence, hence the democratic Republican style of governance that your nation is so rightly proud of. So what happens when the church has so much influence over government (as it does today) and minorities, religious minorities, are faced with penalties for not observing Sunday when it is inevitably legislated for again and enforced?

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus was never political. That is something I am thankful for. I believe politics and religion mixed together is a terrible thing.

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus was never political. That is something I am thankful for. I believe politics and religion mixed together is a terrible thing.

Mmmm, I agree. Yet we cannot ignore the truth that Christians who serve in government must, in entitled they do, reflect their Christian principles when exercising their core focus in serving the people. Look at Daniel. Joseph. Neither of which it must be noted, took on a government position as a result of ambition or desire for personal gain. Can that be said for the numerous professing Christians in government today?

 

[Rockerduck]

Mmmm, I agree. Yet we cannot ignore the truth that Christians who serve in government must, in entitled they do, reflect their Christian principles when exercising their core focus in serving the people. Look at Daniel. Joseph. Neither of which it must be noted, took on a government position as a result of ambition or desire for personal gain. Can that be said for the numerous professing Christians in government today?

There are Christians in the Federal, State, County, and local governments, always have been, as well as all military branches. Its a good thing to have honestly and integrity for the most part in our all areas of governments. I've seen it in action, because I worked in governments and saw honesty in elections. That said, when all the Christian baby boomers started retiring in mass, honestly in government has dwindled in some areas in our local governments. But don't forget, many family members of some of the most liberal elected leaders, are Christians. So, the influence is still there.

 

[SavedInHim]

If anyone wants to know what happens when you mix the state with religion, just look at what happened to Christianity when it became blended with Rome.

 

[Rockerduck]

If anyone wants to know what happens when you mix the state with religion, just look at what happened to Christianity when it became blended with Rome.

Yes, it became the Holy Roman empire and persecutions of Christians stopped and Christianity became accepted in the world today.

 

[SavedInHim]

Yes, it became the Holy Roman empire and persecutions of Christians stopped and Christianity became accepted in the world today.

Yeah, persecution stopped and Christianity has been on a steady downhill roll ever since. What Satan couldn't do through 200 years of persecution he finally accomplished through cooperation.

 

[Rockerduck]

Yeah, persecution stopped and Christianity has been on a steady downhill roll ever since. What Satan couldn't do through 200 years of persecution he finally accomplished through cooperation.

Nope, Christianity has been steady growing. The Catholic church in the dark ages persecuted Christians, then Martin Luther began the reformation. England under "bloody(Catholic) Mary persecuted Christians again, but the reformation won.

 

[MatthewG]

Mmmm, I agree. Yet we cannot ignore the truth that Christians who serve in government must, in entitled they do, reflect their Christian principles when exercising their core focus in serving the people. Look at Daniel. Joseph. Neither of which it must be noted, took on a government position as a result of ambition or desire for personal gain. Can that be said for the numerous professing Christians in government today?

Doesn’t matter to me.

You’ve read Ecc before haven’t you?

People can make changes in government. They can help to create laws or whatever.

At the end of the day people do what people do…

Good or bad.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, it became the Holy Roman empire and persecutions of Christians stopped and Christianity became accepted in the world today.

Persecution of Christians accelerated at the hands of the papacy. Entire communities were destroyed and murdered at the hands of papal sponsored armies and war.

 

[Rockerduck]

Persecution of Christians accelerated at the hands of the papacy. Entire communities were destroyed and murdered at the hands of papal sponsored armies and war.

That was the dark ages. Christianity largely accepted in the world today. Of course, cults still kill Christians today because the devil is behind it.

 

[Brakelite]

That was the dark ages. Christianity largely accepted in the world today. Of course, cults still kill Christians today because the devil is behind it.

Yet we need to be aware that a repeat of the dark ages is soon to fall upon us, when "he that kills us thinks he is doing God a service". I would remind everyone here that Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots that brings great persecution upon the church in the last days, its a fallen Christian church. A counterfeit church claiming truth and a relationship with God. Not a pagan secular state preaching hate, but claiming the godly authority to hold power over the earth out of love for man and a concern for the common good. Sound familiar?

 

[Anchorite]

The black community is very happy Christians got heavily involved in politics. Changing society through alleviating suffering via activism and legislation is one way to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Wikipedia:

Although some Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized the abolitionist movement.

Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.

 

[The Learner]

Mmmm, I agree. Yet we cannot ignore the truth that Christians who serve in government must, in entitled they do, reflect their Christian principles when exercising their core focus in serving the people. Look at Daniel. Joseph. Neither of which it must be noted, took on a government position as a result of ambition or desire for personal gain. Can that be said for the numerous professing Christians in government today?

Romans 13:1-8
Easy-to-Read Version
Obey Your Government Rulers
13 All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves. 3 People who do right don’t have to fear the rulers. But those who do wrong must fear them. Do you want to be free from fearing them? Then do only what is right, and they will praise you.

4 Rulers are God’s servants to help you. But if you do wrong, you have reason to be afraid. They have the power to punish, and they will use it. They are God’s servants to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government, not just because you might be punished, but because you know it is the right thing to do.

6 And this is why you pay taxes too. Those rulers are working for God, and they give all their time to the work of ruling. 7 Give everyone what you owe them. If you owe them any kind of tax, then pay it. Show respect to those you should respect. And show honor to those you should honor.

Loving Others Is the Only Law
8 You should owe nothing to anyone, except that you will always owe love to each other. The person who loves others has done all that the law commands.

Key Scriptures Regarding Governing Authorities
Romans 13:1-2: States that all authority is established by God, and resisting authority is resisting what God has appointed.
Romans 13:7: Explicitly commands paying taxes and giving respect or honor to those in authority.
1 Timothy 2:1–4: Urges prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving for kings and all in high positions to live peaceful lives.
1 Peter 2:13-17: Commands submission to every human institution—whether to a king or governors—and to honor everyone.

 

[The Learner]

Nope, Christianity has been steady growing. The Catholic church in the dark ages persecuted Christians, then Martin Luther began the reformation. England under "bloody(Catholic) Mary persecuted Christians again, but the reformation won.

Don't forget protestants who persecuted others too.

 

[The Learner]

The so called seperation has caused those in public schools to avoid Jesus.

 

[Brakelite]

The black community is very happy Christians got heavily involved in politics. Changing society through alleviating suffering via activism and legislation is one way to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Wikipedia:

Although some Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized the abolitionist movement.

Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.

Indeed, that is correct. But they invested time, effort, prayers and preaching in order to effect change. The government then changed the laws through their constant and courageous lobbying.
The current state of affairs in America is subtly different. While influencing government to change those laws and statutes which were totally unjust and illogical such as those that relate to abortion, LGBT issues, transgender issues etc are good and proper from a Christian perspective, the future as clearly stated by many is intended to enforce a particular worship. While it is good to govern relations between man and man, they are taking it too far when they think to govern relationships between man and God.

 

[Brakelite]

Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 29Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Catholic social doctrine stipulates obedience to the church "for the common good". The common good is defined by the church.
This is the essentially the same as the declaration of human rights as granted to the people after the French revolution. Nothing about a Creator, or inalienable rights as sourced from God alone.
The American revolution and the declaration of independence was different, despite all manifests declaring religious liberty.
The feudal system reflected the same demarcation of authority. The ultimate power was not God, but the king, or the pope.



Society today is rapidly going in the direction of a return to the dark ages, with the Catholic Church set to define the terms of worship, with the help of an apostate protestant hierarchy in the US

 

[MatthewG]

Society today is rapidly going in the direction of a return to the dark ages, with the Catholic Church set to define the terms of worship, with the help of an apostate protestant hierarchy in the US

Hey man,

I know for myself that no one can define the terms of worship except to the notion of Jesus himself "to worship God and to worship him in spirit and truth" is something that God desires for people to do so that they can be helped by the Spirit of Christ with in them.

I also do not believe in a so-called "one world government." I just don't think that is possible with so many people in the world. It's hard enough for some of the governments to keep it together as others fall apart.

The world is constantly breaking down and building itself back up, so for myself. God sustains the world... but I wonder why so many people claim the Devil is the one at fault (While darkness remains within our ownselves - I dont understand why so many point to the devil and not themselves), when it's just human beings with their beliefs, and ideas, and whatever it is they believe is right.

We have to be responsible for ourselves, and how we go about life, and we are telling people how they should worship or whatever it should be done with caution and a remembrance that Jesus desires for people to be free, as God allows the world to continue on forward as we all slowly vanish away like vapor.

May sound pointless but at the end of the day it is up to oneself what they make of this world all together (concerning the systems in place) God allowed the governing bodies so that to me is a great thing when it comes down to it.