Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[rebuilder 454]

Matt. 24:29-31, 1 Thess. 5:3-5, Eph. 6:13, 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 1 Pet. 4:17-19, Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 7:9-14 shows the post GT raptured/resurrected church arriving in heaven, Rev. 12:17, Rev. 13:7-10. These are all post-persecution verses. If by post-trib you mean post 70th week, then I agree there is no rapture at that time. Now I know you'll say these aren't the church, they are trib saints, but there is no such group. They are the still here church! That theology was made up by pre-tribbers to account for all the places it still shows who can only be described as church people.

Nothing in Matt.
Ep 6 is nothing about the trib.
Read it
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(so nothingbthere as you are waiting for the trib to put on your armor.
You muddoed that up as we should do it every day.)
1 thes 5:3;
Context context context
1) in your model Jesus does not come as a thief. You can calculate the timing of his arrival.
Same with the AC descecrating the temple timing.
It can be calculated.
2) your passage is to be compared to mat 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

see that?
Noah gathered first BEFORE THE FLOOD/TRIB.
Your model has the flood coming, and Noah gathered from the water into the ark ( a type of heaven), after going halfway through the flood judgement..
I threw in the typology. I know, I know....that is way too deep for you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matt. 24:29-31, 1 Thess. 5:3-5, Eph. 6:13, 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 1 Pet. 4:17-19, Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 7:9-14 shows the post GT raptured/resurrected church arriving in heaven, Rev. 12:17, Rev. 13:7-10. These are all post-persecution verses. If by post-trib you mean post 70th week, then I agree there is no rapture at that time. Now I know you'll say these aren't the church, they are trib saints, but there is no such group. They are the still here church! That theology was made up by pre-tribbers to account for all the places it still shows who can only be described as church people.

Nothing in your 1 Peter verses.
Just says we suffer as Christians.

You are grasping at nothing.
We all suffer as Christians .

But thinking only you guys fulfill that passage by being left behind hiding in bomb shelters is silly

Your Rev 6 passage is 100% pretrib rapture with the carnal foolish virgins left behind to face the AC.
....now factor in what it ACTUALLY SAYS.
THEY DIE. THEY ARE ALL MARTYRS. Not raptured at all.

Rev 7?????
Did you read it?????
It is all the dead martyrs in heaven
Hello....THEY ARE DEAD.
You just confirmed that all those left behind die if they refuse the mark.
Who are your alive ones that "MAKE IT THROUGH " the trib?????
They "make it through" by taking the mark.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Trying to fit spiritualism into a book that should be taken literally in most cases doesn't lead to the truth. Most of the OT believers were "not" spirit filled. I neve called the bible nonsensical, just some folks false understanding of it.

Like I said before.
Please stay away from Hebrews.
It is loaded with what you call nonsense.

We learned types and shadows as infant believers. 50 years ago.

Definately fire your teachers that made you paranoid of God's word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

IMO the rapture is referenced in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthins 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12, 14:16.

It occurs at the midpoint of the final seven years. The two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) are revived and raptured in Revelation 11:12.

There are no postrib rapture verses.
The ONLY mid 7 yr trib rapture verse is Rev 14:14.
It is amazing that the only postrib rapture verse in the bible is omitted by postribbrrs.
Huh?
Bizarre.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Literal possibilities, perhaps true, perhaps not, Christ explains them all and if one sees them any differently, then they are wrong. Some typology yes, tons...nope.

Even a few will be cast down by your methods.
Maybe skip hebrews.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Trying to fit spiritualism into a book that should be taken literally in most cases doesn't lead to the truth. Most of the OT believers were "not" spirit filled. I neve called the bible nonsensical, just some folks false understanding of it.

Tell it to Jesus and his tons of metaphoric stories.
psssst....he did so, so that the pharisees could not mentally understand.
The spirit part of the word of God is the depth.
So dont think you are taking any high ground by muddling up the bible that is using metaphors and analogy.
Simply stay unlearned.

 

[The Light]

IMO:
o Sixty nine sevens have passed.

IMO:
69.5 sevens have passed.

69 sevens passed when Christ arrived.
Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Christ ministered for 3.5 years. After 3.5 years He is cutoff.
Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That leaves 3.5 years remaining. Time, times and half a time.
Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

o This leaves one seven for anti Christ.

IMO:
That leaves 3.5 years for Antichrist.
Revelation 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

There is more than one Antichrist. The beast of the earth and the beast of the sea. These are the 7th and 8th kings.

o He confirms a covenant with the people for one seven (Daniel 9:27).

As you have stated, he will confirm a covenant with many for one week or seven years.
That does not mean he will make a covenant with many. He will only confirm it.
An example of this covenant with many would be the 7-year SDG covenant made by the United Nations in September of 2023. This covenant is unconfirmed by the Antichrist at this time. The goal the United Nations has set up is to have their SDG covenant complete by 2030. Note-The attack on Israel was October 7, 2023.

o He breaks it at the midpoint, declaring he is God. (Daniel 9:27).

Yes, he does.

o He is seized and thrown to hell when Jesus returns. (Revelation 19:20).

He is seized and thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not hell.
Revelation 19
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Note - Christ died in 30 AD. Many of those that are watching for His return have moved the date of His death to 32 AD and 33 AD simply because they believe that the Church is raptured before the 7 years begins. This is a false assumption. The Church is not raptured before the 7 years begins. The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week.

Note - This timeline would mean that the ONE YEAR wrath of God would begin in the fall of 2028 which strangely enough would coincide with the asteroid Apophis arriving on April 13, 2029 as one of the trumpet judgements.

We are told to WATCH. I don't know if this timeline is correct, but don't be asleep.

 

[Trekson]

Oh I can debate the very best of your teachers.
Ask one of your teachers for a postrib rapture verse.
Tell em you will wait for a response.
Then wait and wait and wait.
They, like you will not be able to give any.

We own end time big time.

You do not know the pretrib doctrine.
Of course those left behind martyrs , are the church.
They are tge 5 foolish virgins.
All 10 are virgins/saints.

5 worthy 5 foolish.
The rapture is worthy saints vs carnal saints.

Heaven authenticates via witnesses.
" let my word be confirmed in 2 or 3 witnesses."

1) Jesus said " pray That you may be counting worthy to escape the things about to come upon the Earth and stand before this son of god"
He said that to born again believers.

2) Jesus said " Because you have kept the word of my testimony. I will also keep you from the hour of testing that's about to come up on the whole world."

3) Jesus said "2 men will be in a bed. One will be taken the other 1 left. 2 women will be in a field, one will be taken in the other one left.

There are about 10 verses declaring the worthy of ones are taken in the rapture.

I could go deeper but you will trample the deeper things.
I am sure the virgin parable is risqué, as any allegory is trampled by you.

Nope, I used to be a pre-tribber but God showed me a better way that is much closer to the truth. Pre-trib escapism is a false doctrine. The virgin parable has zero to do w/ the church. Christ was talking to Israel.

 

[Trekson]

Nothing in Matt.
Ep 6 is nothing about the trib.
Read it
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(so nothingbthere as you are waiting for the trib to put on your armor.
You muddoed that up as we should do it every day.)
1 thes 5:3;
Context context context
1) in your model Jesus does not come as a thief. You can calculate the timing of his arrival.
Same with the AC descecrating the temple timing.
It can be calculated.
2) your passage is to be compared to mat 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

see that?
Noah gathered first BEFORE THE FLOOD/TRIB.
Your model has the flood coming, and Noah gathered from the water into the ark ( a type of heaven), after going halfway through the flood judgement..
I threw in the typology. I know, I know....that is way too deep for you.

Eph. 6:13, "the evil day". The bible tells us we won't be surprised at Christ's coming, only the unbelieving world will. Why? Because we know the signs given us in Matt. 24 which parallel the seals quite accurately and no, that doesn't help us calculate any timing. Gathered? no, kept in a safe place while enduring it, yes.

 

[Trekson]

Nothing in your 1 Peter verses.
Just says we suffer as Christians.

You are grasping at nothing.
We all suffer as Christians .

But thinking only you guys fulfill that passage by being left behind hiding in bomb shelters is silly

Your Rev 6 passage is 100% pretrib rapture with the carnal foolish virgins left behind to face the AC.
....now factor in what it ACTUALLY SAYS.
THEY DIE. THEY ARE ALL MARTYRS. Not raptured at all.

Rev 7?????
Did you read it?????
It is all the dead martyrs in heaven
Hello....THEY ARE DEAD.
You just confirmed that all those left behind die if they refuse the mark.
Who are your alive ones that "MAKE IT THROUGH " the trib?????
They "make it through" by taking the mark.

Sorry, but the GT will be our time of testing, a separating of the wheat from the chaff, the cause of the great apostacy as many believers won't have the courage or desire to actually die for Christ. Everytime the bible mentions trials and tribulations, it is talking about life or death circumstances, not life's annoyances.

Like I said before.
Please stay away from Hebrews.
It is loaded with what you call nonsense.

We learned types and shadows as infant believers. 50 years ago.

Definately fire your teachers that made you paranoid of God's word.

I'm quite fond of Hebrews give me some examples.

 

[Trekson]

Tell it to Jesus and his tons of metaphoric stories.
psssst....he did so, so that the pharisees could not mentally understand.
The spirit part of the word of God is the depth.
So dont think you are taking any high ground by muddling up the bible that is using metaphors and analogy.
Simply stay unlearned.

Why would you say every parable is symbolic when Christ always explains what he is talking about. It doesn't matter what unbelievers think. Most of them could be absolutely true or do you think Christ was making everything up on the spot. I'm sure he had or heard of plenty of experiences during those missing 18 years with which to glean from in his teachings.

 

[PinSeeker]

LOL

<chuckles>

the prophets hardly ever wrote for the people of their time.

Their “job,” Trekson, was to be God’s “mouthpiece”… to speak God’s words to them, and they were mostly about very present matters ~ statements about Who He is, promises, encouragements, instruction, and sometimes admonishments, and warnings. Which, actually, we get in the New Testament…

. The average is 10-500 years in the future.

These would be the warnings, that He would bring judgements upon them if they continued in their ways, and short-term promises, both of which also had long-term implications. But they were for the most part very present in nature. God never said ~ nor does He now say ~ things that were/are not relevant to the original, or current, or any time in between, hearers.

Since you’re so fond of Hebrews, you’ll remember, I’m sure, Hebrews 1:1-2, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophet, but in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son.” And this also speaks to the… conversation about God’s millennium (Revelation 20), which is synonymous with the “these last days” the writer of Hebrews is referring to. And you will notice the “these” there, which irrefutably is present tense, not future.

The first prophecy of Gen. 3:15 took over 4000 yrs. to fulfill.

But He told Adam and Eve ~ and all of humanity by extension ~ that their (and our) lives would be filled with… tribulation, and for them it started that very day, when they were cast out of Eden. So yes, tribulation, which Jesus says to His disciples ~ and us believers by extension ~ we will have in this life. So it is in this fallen world. But yes, when Jesus returns, all things will be set right again.

The problem is trying to cram real time events into a prophesied future which all attempts to do so fail miserably.

The future is both now and not yet… inaugurated, so a present reality, but not yet consummated. But… it will be. All God’s promises have their’yes’ and ‘amen’ in Christ Jesus.

Thinking all these things are still future only and that they have just one fulfillment ~ except for Christ’s return, of course ~ is… well, an unintentional denial of reality, I guess…

Grace and peace to all

 

[Trekson]

<chuckles>


Their “job,” Trekson, was to be God’s “mouthpiece”… to speak God’s words to them, and they were mostly about very present matters ~ statements about Who He is, promises, encouragements, instruction, and sometimes admonishments, and warnings. Which, actually, we get in the New Testament…


These would be the warnings, that He would bring judgements upon them if they continued in their ways, and short-term promises, both of which also had long-term implications. But they were for the most part very present in nature. God never said ~ nor does He now say ~ things that were/are not relevant to the original, or current, or any time in between, hearers.

Since you’re so fond of Hebrews, you’ll remember, I’m sure, Hebrews 1:1-2, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophet, but in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son.” And this also speaks to the… conversation about God’s millennium (Revelation 20), which is synonymous with the “these last days” the writer of Hebrews is referring to. And you will notice the “these” there, which irrefutably is present tense, not future.


But He told Adam and Eve ~ and all of humanity by extension ~ that their (and our) lives would be filled with… tribulation, and for them it started that very day, when they were cast out of Eden. So yes, tribulation, which Jesus says to His disciples ~ and us believers by extension ~ we will have in this life. So it is in this fallen world. But yes, when Jesus returns, all things will be set right again.


The future is both now and not yet… inaugurated, so a present reality, but not yet consummated. But… it will be. All God’s promises have their’yes’ and ‘amen’ in Christ Jesus.

Thinking all these things are still future only and that they have just one fulfillment ~ except for Christ’s return, of course ~ is… well, an unintentional denial of reality, I guess…

Grace and peace to all

I guess it depends on the prophets. Prophets like Samuel, Nathan Elijah and Elisha for example had a more advisory role. But the prophetic books of the OT are a completely different. The "tribulations", the early church experienced were usually life and death or minor things like beatings, tortures, imprisonment, loss of home and goods, etc. It wasn't small things like their donkey broke a leg or the wife's favorite washing rock broke. I'm sure they experienced these things, but they were "not" the types of things they were really concerned with. The OT tribulations weren't in the same level that the first century churches were.

 

[The Light]

No matter how you slice it , the direct statement, "..tribulation such as the world has never seen or ever will be"

Exactly........tribulation.........not God's wrath. Why you don't see the difference between tribulation that is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God that begins when the 7th seal is opened is beyond me?

(The wrath part of tge 7 yr trib) is way worse thst the first part of the 7 yr trib.

Please produce ANY scripture that says there is a 7 year tribulation. Let's see the scripture. Not a chance in China that you can produce one. There is NO 7 year tribulation. Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood..........FACT.

So you can not refer to what you are separating as "tribulation" as greater than the wrath.

The great tribulation is the greatest tribulation that will ever be on the earth. The Jews will be hunted and killed all over the world. It will be worse than the Holocaust BY FAR. That has absolutely nothing WHATSOEVER to with the wrath of God when God takes vengeance on an evil and unbelieving world. Why you are unable to see the difference between great tribulation on believers and wrath of God on unbelievers is incomprehensible.

That obstacle is insurmountable because you say "coming in power and great glory is not at the white horse coming.

I DON'T say that. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT. I am only showing you what the scripture says. Instead of making these unwise unscriptural conclusions, why don't you just read the scripture says and accept what is written?

That item is NOT NEGOTIABLE.

Exactly. The scripture says that the great tribulation is OVER when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes in power and glory when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that the 6th seal is opened when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

But the scripture is not good enough for you. You think it's best to reject what the Word of God says and draw your own conclusions. You will NEVER understand this until you accept the written Word of God, and quit making false conclusions.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus comes in power and glory and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. All that are gathered return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude in Rev 7 and Rev 19. FACT.

Only one place where Jesus comes in power and great glory...and that is The second coming on white horses.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Read the Word of God.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. I don't know how to help you BELIEVE the written Word of God. You either believe the Word of God or you don't. It's as simple as that. We don't need to draw false conclusion ON WHAT WE THINK. It's written down. No false conclusionS needs to be drawn.

So In mat 24 when it says "after the trib" referring to Jesus coming, it can not in ANY WAY be ANYTHING but the second coming on white horses.

Oh, it's the second coming alright. But the second coming occurs at the 6th seal, and there are no white horses at the 6th seal. Do you not see the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Where did they come from? Answer....Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Do you not see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 19 before the armies of heaven return for Armageddon? Where did they come from? Jesus sends His angels at the 6th seal to gather elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. White horses is AFTER this.

So you changed Matthew to fit. And you did so by, using a strict amplified application of "trib can not be wrath."

I have changed nothing. Read the Word and stop drawing your own conclusions.

The scripture says that the great tribulation is OVER when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes in power and glory when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that the 6th seal is opened when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

So why can't you accept the written Word of God.

"After The tribulation of those days", is after the seven year tribulation spoken of in daniel.

Please provide any scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Bet you can't find one. So why do you falsely conclude that there is a 7 year tribulation?

That problem will not go away.

The problem is that you will not accept the written Word of God. You are drawing false conclusions based on what you THINK...........not based on the Word of God.

The next insurmountable problem is in Jesus words " Tribulation such as the world has never seen and never will see again"

I see no problem. It is the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. That's why it is called the great tribulation. It begins in the middle of week. The Church is not raptured before the week begins, and you will not be able to produce a single scripture that says differently.

The great tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

You claim that the trib "such as the world has never seen nor ever will again" is before the wrath, which is backwards in timing, since Jesus is implied to be unaware, that the wrath that will follow, is even worse than the previous judgements.

What? The great tribulation is the worst tribulation that believers will EVER experience. It will be mostly Jews that experience the great tribulation.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord that will occur at Armageddon.

Believers ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. But the Word of God is not good enough for you. You have decided that believers are appointed to wrath and have them running around the earth during the wrath of God. What will it take for you to believe what is written and quit making false conclusions?

So those 2 items are insurmountable in your model.

Let's see. My model follows the Word of God. Your model has false conclusions of what you THINK. I'm going with the Word of God. You can have believers running around the earth during the wrath of God. I will have the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper immediately after the tribulation of those days.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why would you say every parable is symbolic when Christ always explains what he is talking about. It doesn't matter what unbelievers think. Most of them could be absolutely true or do you think Christ was making everything up on the spot. I'm sure he had or heard of plenty of experiences during those missing 18 years with which to glean from in his teachings.

Are you now saying the parables are not symbolic ?

 

[PinSeeker]

I guess it depends on the prophets.

Not really. The problem begins, really, when people try to separate the Old Testament from the New.

The "tribulations", the early church experienced were usually life and death or minor things like beatings, tortures, imprisonment, loss of home and goods, etc. It wasn't small things like their donkey broke a leg or the wife's favorite washing rock broke. I'm sure they experienced these things, but they were "not" the types of things they were really concerned with. The OT tribulations weren't in the same level that the first century churches were.

Tribulation of all kinds in this life knows no time barriers. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sorry, but the GT will be our time of testing, a separating of the wheat from the chaff, the cause of the great apostacy as many believers won't have the courage or desire to actually die for Christ. Everytime the bible mentions trials and tribulations, it is talking about life or death circumstances, not life's annoyances.

I'm quite fond of Hebrews give me some examples.

The rapture verses setting is opposite of when your doctrine places the rapture.
Scripture is against your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are no postrib rapture verses.

I guess these verses are not in your Bible then.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Also, scripture only teaches that Jesus will be descending from heaven once in the future (Acts 1:9-11, Hebrews 9:28) and it will be post-trib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Exactly........tribulation.........not God's wrath. Why you don't see the difference between tribulation that is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God that begins when the 7th seal is opened is beyond me?


Please produce ANY scripture that says there is a 7 year tribulation. Let's see the scripture. Not a chance in China that you can produce one. There is NO 7 year tribulation. Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood..........FACT.


The great tribulation is the greatest tribulation that will ever be on the earth. The Jews will be hunted and killed all over the world. It will be worse than the Holocaust BY FAR. That has absolutely nothing WHATSOEVER to with the wrath of God when God takes vengeance on an evil and unbelieving world. Why you are unable to see the difference between great tribulation on believers and wrath of God on unbelievers is incomprehensible.


I DON'T say that. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT. I am only showing you what the scripture says. Instead of making these unwise unscriptural conclusions, why don't you just read the scripture says and accept what is written?


Exactly. The scripture says that the great tribulation is OVER when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes in power and glory when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that the 6th seal is opened when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

But the scripture is not good enough for you. You think it's best to reject what the Word of God says and draw your own conclusions. You will NEVER understand this until you accept the written Word of God, and quit making false conclusions.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus comes in power and glory and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. All that are gathered return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude in Rev 7 and Rev 19. FACT.


The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Read the Word of God.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th nd the stars fall from heaven.

So why can't you accept the written Word of God.


Please provide any scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Bet you can't find one. So why do you falsely conclude that there is
Believers ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. But the

Let's see. My model follows the Word of God. Your model has false conclusions of what you THINK. I'm going with the Word of God. You can have believers running around the earth during the wrath of God. I will have the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper immediately after the tribulation of those days.

QUOTE
"What? The great tribulation is the worst tribulation that believers will EVER experience. It will be mostly Jews that experience the great tribulation.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord that will occur at Armageddon."
In your model, you have a huge problem with what Jesus said.
He said " such as the world has never seen, and never will see again"
You seem to think the trib part is worse than the wrath, because you have the worst part of the 7 yr trib as before the wrath.

So no, we can see that with Noah and Lot there is no separation whatsoever in those 2 models by Jesus.
Jesus used those 2 examples and they are both judgements.
Indicating the 7 yr trib is exactly what Jesus

Exactly. The scripture says that the great tribulation is OVER when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes in power and glory when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that the 6th seal is opened when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

But the scripture is not good enough for you. You think it's best to reject what the Word of God says and draw your own conclusions. You will NEVER understand this until you accept the written Word of God, and quit making false conclusions.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus comes in power and glory and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. All that are gathered return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude in Rev 7 and Rev 19. FACT.


The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Read the Word of God.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. I don't know how to help you BELIEVE the written Word of God. You either believe the Word of God or you don't. It's as simple as that. We don't need to draw false conclusion ON WHAT WE THINK. It's written down. No false conclusionS needs to be drawn.


Oh, it's the second coming alright. But the second coming occurs at the 6th seal, and there are no white horses at the 6th seal. Do you not see the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Where did they come from? Answer....Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Do you not see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 19 before the armies of heaven return for Armageddon? Where did they come from? Jesus sends His angels at the 6th seal to gather elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. White horses is AFTER this.


I have changed nothing. Read the Word and stop drawing your own conclusions.

The scripture says that the great tribulation is OVER when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that Jesus comes in power and glory when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. The scripture says that the 6th seal is opened when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

So why can't you accept the written Word of God.


Please provide any scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Bet you can't find one. So why do you falsely conclude that there is a 7 year tribulation?


The problem is that you will not accept the written Word of God. You are drawing false conclusions based on what you THINK...........not based on the Word of God.




Let's see. My model follows the Word of God. Your model has false conclusions of what you THINK. I'm going with the Word of God. You can have believers running around the earth during the wrath of God. I will have the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper immediately after the tribulation of those days.

QUOTE
"Exactly........tribulation.........not God's wrath. Why you don't see the difference between tribulation that is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God that begins when the 7th seal is opened is beyond me?"
I can show you a bible study where trib and wrath are interchangeable.
So that point is way off.

QUOTE
"Please provide any scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Bet you can't find one. So why do you falsely conclude that there is a 7 year tribulation?"
we know for a fact it is 7 years.
Daniel SAID A WEEK.
Daniel said IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
Further, you can not admit that the white horse rider is tge AC "that kicks off" the 7 yr trib.
You also deny that the bow in his hand represents covenant.
And cover your tracks by insisting he "confirms" a covenant midway , so you can show a non 7 yr period of his menacing.
I showed you several places in history where a treaty was made and ratified "confirmed" almost simultaneously.
Here it is :
Dan 9
And he shall confirm the
covenant with many for one
week: and in the midst of
the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the
overspreading of
abominations he shall make
[it] desolate, even until the
consummation, and that
determined shall be poured
upon the desolate.

Ahem....7 yr trib with the temple descecrated after 3.5 years of the 7 yr trib.

Way way plain and simple.
Impossible to miss

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nope, I used to be a pre-tribber but God showed me a better way that is much closer to the truth. Pre-trib escapism is a false doctrine. The virgin parable has zero to do w/ the church. Christ was talking to Israel.

SMH.
We can see that is 100% false.
Things don't even come close to lining up with your model.
No contest

You can't even see the parable of a wedding is the groom gathering His bride.

Wow
Bizarre