Do we have free will or are we predestined?

[shepherdsword]

Could events have played out such that Judas didn't betray Jesus?

No
Why?
Because Judas was never "predestined" to betray the Lord. It's just that God foreknew what would happen and prophesied accordingly

 

[shepherdsword]

Everyone please note she is quoting a Catholic mystic who claims to speak for Jesus.

Is this the same person that was banned on another account for spamming the "Maria Valtorta" deception all over the forum last year?

 

[St. SteVen]

We have a free will but are predestined to several things by the foreknowledge of God.

Knowing the result of our freewill decision we have been predestined by God to be adopted:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

He foreknew our decision and predestinated us to be conformed to His image:
Ro 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I would say, predestined to adoption as the Elect. (each in turn - 1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
But not predestined to salvation apart from everyone else.

 

[St. SteVen]

Is this the same person that was banned on another account for spamming the "Maria Valtorta" deception all over the forum last year?

There was nothing deceptive about the way the quote from Maria Valtorta was presented here.
Why all this fuss?

 

[St. SteVen]

No
Why?
Because Judas was never "predestined" to betray the Lord. It's just that God foreknew what would happen and prophesied accordingly

Not sure.
Wasn't the betrayal prophesied?

• Old Testament References: Betrayal is foretold in Psalms (e.g., Psalm 41:9) and Zechariah (Zechariah 11:12-13).
• Judas Iscariot: Jesus' betrayal is specifically linked to Judas, one of his twelve disciples.
• 30 Pieces of Silver: The prophecy includes the exact amount Judas would receive for his betrayal.
• New Testament Fulfillment: The Gospels (Matthew 26:14-16) recount how Judas agreed to betray Jesus for this sum.
• Sign of Betrayal: Jesus indicates that Judas would identify him with a kiss (Matthew 26:48-49).
• Divine Plan: The betrayal is seen as part of God's overarching plan for redemption through Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[shepherdsword]

Not sure.
Wasn't the betrayal prophesied?

• Old Testament References: Betrayal is foretold in Psalms (e.g., Psalm 41:9) and Zechariah (Zechariah 11:12-13).
• Judas Iscariot: Jesus' betrayal is specifically linked to Judas, one of his twelve disciples.
• 30 Pieces of Silver: The prophecy includes the exact amount Judas would receive for his betrayal.
• New Testament Fulfillment: The Gospels (Matthew 26:14-16) recount how Judas agreed to betray Jesus for this sum.
• Sign of Betrayal: Jesus indicates that Judas would identify him with a kiss (Matthew 26:48-49).
• Divine Plan: The betrayal is seen as part of God's overarching plan for redemption through Jesus' sacrifice.

Yes, I mentioned that God prophesied it by His foreknowledge. He didn't compel Judas' betrayal by predestining it, he just knew what Judas would decide to do.

 

[shepherdsword]

There was nothing deceptive about the way the quote from Maria Valtorta was presented here.
Why all this fuss?

That's your problem, you don't have the ability to determine deception. It's why you subscribe to so many false doctrines and ideas yourself.

 

[KUWN]

The mystic is speaking in first person as if she is Jesus speaking. I think we should be careful about this.

Anyone who claims to hear Jesus talk to them during this Church Age (post Apostolic Age) needs psychiatric help. Even the Pope who claims to speak ex cathedra is out of line. Hebrews says that:

God SPOKE (past tense) to us in a Son (Heb 1). He no longer speaks to us until we are with Him (in death or the Rapture).

Imagine the implications of Jesus speaking to people today. Anyone could claim that he spoke to them and tell us that Jesus told them that we are to listen and follow the Pope. Or, we could have another Muslim kind of Religion started by having Jesus speak to us.

How could we evaluate whether or not what this person claims is true? If the answer is that it must agree with the Scriptures, then the revelation from Jesus was already told to us 2000 years ago. There is no need to repeat it.

The worst thing that could happen if it were true that Jesus speaks to us today. And by speak, I mean audibly. Finally, the Holy Spirit can "communicate" to us by illuminating us to the Word of God. There will be no speaking done by the Holy Spirit or you have the same problem as when Jesus is claimed to speak to someone.

 

[shepherdsword]

Anyone who claims to hear Jesus talk to them during this Church Age (post Apostolic Age) needs psychiatric help. Even the Pope who claims to speak ex cathedra is out of line. Hebrews says that:

God SPOKE (past tense) to us in a Son (Heb 1). He no longer speaks to us until we are with Him (in death or the Rapture).

We see examples of prophets all through the book of acts. We are also commanded to:

1 Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

Imagine the implications of Jesus speaking to people today. Anyone could claim that he spoke to them and tell us that Jesus told them that we are to listen and follow the Pope. Or, we could have another Muslim kind of Religion started by having Jesus speak to us.

Jesus DOES speak to people today. Just as he did in the early church:

1 Co 14:3-5
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

One must hear God speak in order to prophesie.

How could we evaluate whether or not what this person claims is true?

The same way they evaluated the Old testament prophets.

Dt 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[Armour of God]

You're the one who stood up in the canoe.
@Mathētria is trying to get you to sit down before you capsize the boat.

@Mathētria believes that Jesus spoke to a woman named Maria in the 40s and 50s. Thats fine, she can believe whatever she likes.

All I was basically saying is that I don't believe that Jesus spoke to this mystic Maria.
That's just my opinion.

 

[talons]

You are now comparing apples to oranges. @Armour of God and I are noticing @Mathētria seems to have an obsession with the mystic. It is dangerous to be so obsessed.

I remember this person either from this forum or another forum where I'm a member. All of their topics or posts were about the mystic.

This member @Sabé has posts and a signature of much adoration of Maria Voltorta's writings . Good memory @Debp .

The Truth about Joseph and Mary from Jesus Himself.

On March 22nd, 1945, Jesus showed Maria Valtorta a vision of a scene from His life on earth, which she witnessed and described in writing in full detail. Below is an excerpt where Jesus is speaking to the apostles and the Shepherds (the ones present the night of His birth) acquainting them with...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[KUWN]

We see examples of prophets all through the book of acts. We are also commanded to:

1 Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

Remember what I said, this teaching of Paul's is in the Apostolic Age. The sign gifts became obsolete according to Heb 2.1-4. The first generation is distinguished from the second generation. The first generation heard him, the second generation did not.

Jesus DOES speak to people today. Just as he did in the early church:

1 Co 14:3-5
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

One must hear God speak in order to prophesie.

This is also in Apostolic Age, the Age of Sign Gifts.

The writer of Hebrews (not Paul) said that Jesus SPOKE to us, but not anymore in the Church Age. After the Rapture, there is still 7 more years left in the Jewish Dispensation. During the Tribulation, there is more divine communication, but not until the Jewish Dispensation returns.

The same way they evaluated the Old testament prophets.

Dt 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Apostles and Prophets laid the foundation of the Church and then their gifts ceased by 96 AD, with the death of the last Apostle, John.

 

[shepherdsword]

Remember what I said, this teaching of Paul's is in the Apostolic Age. The sign gifts became obsolete according to Heb 2.1-4. The first generation is distinguished from the second generation. The first generation heard him, the second generation did not.

There is nothing in Heb 2 1-4 that even alludes that the gifts have stopped. We know from 1Cor 14 that gifts and miracles were not limited to the apostles....or any age.

This is also in Apostolic Age, the Age of Sign Gifts.

Name one scripture that backs this. It is sheer invention.

The writer of Hebrews (not Paul) said that Jesus SPOKE to us, but not anymore in the Church Age. After the Rapture, there is still 7 more years left in the Jewish Dispensation. During the Tribulation, there is more divine communication, but not until the Jewish Dispensation returns.

Hebrews doesn't say Jesus doesn't speak to us. In fact....just the opposite

Heb 4:9
again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Apostles and Prophets laid the foundation of the Church and then their gifts ceased by 96 AD, with the death of the last Apostle, John.

Just opinion and conjecture without any backing scripture.

 

[Sergius]

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is one verse we can consider. We don’t choose Christ. He chooses us. Perhaps before time began.

 

[Armour of God]

Imagine spending your life as a Christian, following the teachings of Christ, living a good and righteous life, only to find out that God hasn't chosen you and your still damned to hell anyway... Geez that's bad, really bad.

So if we're predestined what's the use of praying? If God already has everything lined up for you?

I supposed I can still give thanks and ask for strength to overcome adversity, like I usually do, but asking for any changes or to be saved would be worthless if we're predestined. Even having faith and being righteous would be worthless if we're already predestined. Doesn't make sense to me

And what if your born outside of Christisnity, never heard of Jesus. You going to hell? Just bad luck? I don't know

 

[St. SteVen]

And what if your born outside of Christisnity, never heard of Jesus. You going to hell? Just bad luck? I don't know

Good questions.
This is why I don't connect predestination with salvation.
Mostly because everyone else would by predestined by God for destruction.

Predestination is for a relationship with God in this lifetime.
Everyone else will establish their relationship with God in the afterlife.

 

[KUWN]

We see examples of prophets all through the book of acts. We are also commanded to:

1 Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.



Jesus DOES speak to people today. Just as he did in the early church:

1 Co 14:3-5
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

One must hear God speak in order to prophesie.


The same way they evaluated the Old testament prophets.

Dt 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

There is nothing in Heb 2 1-4 that even alludes that the gifts have stopped. We know from 1Cor 14 that gifts and miracles were not limited to the apostles....or any age.

Name one scripture that backs this. It is sheer invention.

Hebrews doesn't say Jesus doesn't speak to us. In fact....just the opposite

Heb 4:9
again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Just opinion and conjecture without any backing scripture.

Please put me on your ignore list. thank you

 

[NayborBear]

I believe should one travel down the path of "Drawing nearer to God, He draws nearer to you."?
You may (least I did....lol), that what I THOUGHT was free will at one time?
Has actually turned out that I was "under an ILLUSION" of having freewill!
Not EVERYONE has this!
But SOME DO!

 

[Riven]

Imagine spending your life as a Christian, following the teachings of Christ, living a good and righteous life, only to find out that God hasn't chosen you and your still damned to hell anyway... Geez that's bad, really bad.

So if we're predestined what's the use of praying? If God already has everything lined up for you?

I supposed I can still give thanks and ask for strength to overcome adversity, like I usually do, but asking for any changes or to be saved would be worthless if we're predestined. Even having faith and being righteous would be worthless if we're already predestined. Doesn't make sense to me

And what if your born outside of Christisnity, never heard of Jesus. You going to hell? Just bad luck? I don't know

What's the point of doing anything if there is a divine plan that we cannot change? We talk about hell, but what about evil people that go to heaven if it is predestined?

It's an important point of discussion because freewill means everything in Christianity. If we aren't free to choose, then how can we be justly judged?

 

[Debp]

What's the point of doing anything if there is a divine plan that we cannot change? We talk about hell, but what about evil people that go to heaven if it is predestined?

It's an important point of discussion because freewill means everything in Christianity. If we aren't free to choose, then how can we be justly judged?

Evil people will only go to heaven if they have come to Christ as their Savior. And since they have come to Christ, there will be a change in their lives...they won't want to do evil.