Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[rwb]

Job 38:6-7 tells us, speaking about the beginning of time, “Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

Revelation 9:1 says: “I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”

It seems correct to view the flying star in view here as an elect angel. Remember, the key or authority no longer belongs to Satan. He was defeated. Christ and His angels exercise that now within the invisible realm. We exercise it upon the earth.

"It seems correct" is a very poor way to arrive at biblical truths. Once again unless you can prove what seems correct to you from the Word of God, what "seems correct" to you remains your unproven opinion.

 

[WPM]

Here again, the translators through bias believing Satan to be a fallen angel of God write angels when the correct translation is messengers, who were human beings not fallen spirit angels of God, not even demon spirits. But humans who were to be ambassadors of God, like righteous Noah, who, like their first parents fell from the high position they originally held, and became like the children of the evil one.

All the major previous translators and commentators are wrong, apart from you and TS? Yea right!

 

[rwb]

All the major previous translators and commentators are wrong, apart from you and TS? Yea right!

Prove them and all you who rely on them to be right through the Word of God! Through these last now 44 pages you have not been able to prove what you allege because you are relying on what sayeth man rather than on what sayeth God.

 

[WPM]

"It seems correct" is a very poor way to arrive at biblical truths. Once again unless you can prove what seems correct to you from the Word of God, what "seems correct" to you remains your unproven opinion.

What human star would come down from heaven and have the ability to open the bottomless pit?

 

[WPM]

Prove them and all you who rely on them to be right through the Word of God! Through these last now 44 pages you have not been able to prove what you allege because you are relying on what sayeth man rather than on what sayeth God.

The Word speaks for itself. You cannot quote one that supports your nonsense, not one. I have never heard anyone push this apart from the cults! Telling!

 

[rwb]

The Word speaks for itself. You cannot quote one that supports your nonsense, not one. I have never heard anyone push this apart from the cults! Telling!

You've been pleading for me to address the OP. I've done that! Your reply, more insults and laughter, like a small petulant child who has been caught telling lies!

I could quote others and in fact have shown in this thread a rather long commentary, but like always you ignore anything that does not promote your unbiblical doctrine of Satan being a fallen angel of God. Truth is I would rather and repeatedly have formulated my replies from the Word of God which you have not done, and cannot do, because your doctrine must be read into the Bible.

To your shame you have not only been deceived, but YOU have become a deceiver! It's well past time for me to move on, it's clear your hatred for other Christians who disagree with you is the motivating force behind your childishness, you would rather cling to what you believe SEEMS right than to admit you are promoting a doctrine of deception, just like the father of lies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Debating you and SI on this subject is like debating immature children, professing to be Christians, lacking ALL understanding of the difference between angels of God and Satan!

The immature child is clearly you. You have no idea of how to debate like an adult. That's a fact. You fail to address most of my arguments and questions and most of WPM's arguments and questions as well. You fail to explain how it's possible that a fallen man or fallen humanity could possibly be called the anointed cherub who protected the holy mountain of God. You fail to explain how it could be that Satan was created very bad when scripture says that everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31). On and on it goes. WPM's claims that you avoid our arguments are TRUE. Very true. But, you are in denial of that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You've been pleading for me to address the OP. I've done that! Your reply, more insults and laughter, like a small petulant child who has been caught telling lies!

I could quote others and in fact have shown in this thread a rather long commentary, but like always you ignore anything that does not promote your unbiblical doctrine of Satan being a fallen angel of God. Truth is I would rather and repeatedly have formulated my replies from the Word of God which you have not done, and cannot do, because your doctrine must be read into the Bible.

To your shame you have not only been deceived, but YOU have become a deceiver! It's well past time for me to move on, it's clear your hatred for other Christians who disagree with you is the motivating force behind your childishness, you would rather cling to what you believe SEEMS right than to admit you are promoting a doctrine of deception, just like the father of lies.

You are basically claiming that he hates other Christians just because he calls them out for promoting what he believes to be false doctrine. You do the same thing. You believe that he is promoting false doctrine and are calling him out for it. So, does that mean you hate other Christians? I'm sure you don't believe that. So, it's ironic that you are accusing him of being childish while you are being very hypocritical and childish yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Prove them and all you who rely on them to be right through the Word of God! Through these last now 44 pages you have not been able to prove what you allege because you are relying on what sayeth man rather than on what sayeth God.

He and I have been showing you the truth from the Word of God related to these matters the whole time and you reject it.

 

[WPM]

You are basically claiming that he hates other Christians just because he calls them out for promoting what he believes to be false doctrine. You do the same thing. You believe that he is promoting false doctrine and are calling him out for it. So, does that mean you hate other Christians? I'm sure you don't believe that. So, it's ironic that you are accusing him of being childish while you are being very hypocritical and childish yourself.

He let the cat out of the bag. He is exposing his own heart. I have no hatred for him or anyone else. I do hate his theology which is from the pit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He let the cat out of the bag. He is exposing his own heart. I have no hatred for him or anyone else.

I know that is true. Why he would think that about you is beyond me. Just because of disagreeing with him? Ridiculous.

I do hate his theology which is from the pit.

I do, too.

 

[WPM]

That is the best you can say?

Let read the Scripture:

Exo 37:1-9
(1) And Bezaleel made the ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half was the length of it, and a cubit and a half the breadth of it, and a cubit and a half the height of it:
(2) And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a crown of gold to it round about.
(3) And he cast for it four rings of gold, to be set by the four corners of it; even two rings upon the one side of it, and two rings upon the other side of it.
(4) And he made staves of shittim wood, and overlaid them with gold.
(5) And he put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, to bear the ark.
(6) And he made the mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half was the length thereof, and one cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
(7) And he made two cherubims of gold, beaten out of one piece made he them, on the two ends of the mercy seat;
(8) One cherub on the end on this side, and another cherub on the other end on that side: out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
(9) And the cherubims spread out their wings on high, and covered with their wings over the mercy seat, with their faces one to another; even to the mercy seatward were the faces of the cherubims.

Do you even understand why gold was used? Why there are two cherubim—one at each end? Why the mercy seat was made of pure gold? Why the cherubim spread their wings upward and overshadow the mercy seat? Why their faces look down toward it?

Do you understand the meaning behind any of that?

And yet, after all of that depth and detail, all you can say is, “Cherubs are a type of angel.”

That answer barely scratches the surface. It overlooks the symbolism, the holiness, the theology woven into every instruction. It feels less like careful study and more like a quick, shallow summary.

Frankly, it’s disappointing. This subject deserves far more reverence and thoughtful examination than that.

This is supposed to be proof that cherubs are not angels. Basically: because TribulationSigns says so. According to him, we should not take the Bible literal. Spiritual and physical realities are not real. Angels are not real. Satan is not real. Demons are not real. What is next? What about Jesus? What about God?

Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

How many humans have you seen flying about with wings on their back?

This is frankly so ridiculous.

 

[WPM]

A fallen man! Symbolizing fallen humanity!

The king of Tyrus was not a type of a perfect Adam in the Garden. He is an example of a wicked tyrant who was full of pride who Satan worked through to do his evil. Tyrus was an example of what rebellion against God looks like. He is an example of fallen man not perfect man.

 

[WPM]

Op Note!

1Co 4:9 for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Jesus became man not an angel. Scripture is careful at distinguishing between the two.

Heb 2:6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man...
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

 

[William Barton]

o Satan is a Cherub.
o. Satan's angels followed him in a rebellion in heaven.
o. They were all exiled to earth.
o. They dwell among us.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What human star would come down from heaven and have the ability to open the bottomless pit?

You clearly do not fully understood who the star is and what key represents.

Rev 20:1-3
(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Mat 16:18-19
(18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Rev 9:1-3
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Jesus Christ is a messenger (angel) who has cast Satan into bottomless pit with the key. The key signifies authority! Selah! And He gave His church the key (authority) to preach the Gospel which is what kept Satan in bottomless pit as long as she is faithful to do so. Think about it! God uses this language becasue He works THROUGH PEOPLE, the people of His congregation! Only God Himself can bind and loose, but He uses this language becasue he works out the plans He has made in heaven, through men living on Earth. Selah! This is why God works through people in His House (congregation). And just as He works through us to save, He works through these stars to feed the people with wormwood, as judgment. This is the falling away! It is analogous as to when God would send heathen armies that lived around Israel to attack and subjugate them. Truly it was God working to judge Israel, but he used PEOPLE to do what He said He would do. So when he said to Israel, "I will destroy you," he did, but he did it THROUGH PEOPLE. Okay?

Another thing is that the star FELL from heaven. We know stars in heaven represent the people of the congregation and the heaven they are in represent the kingdom of heaven (not literal heaven). And Christ most certainly doesn't fall from the Kingdom. And His faithful stars also do not fall from the kingdom. The word translated fallen with regards to the star in Revelation 1-2 is [ek'pipto], and the falling in Revelation 8:10 and 9:1 is [pipto]. Let us not forget the whole tenor of Revelation is symbolic! Christ (or His Saints) is not fallen from the Kingdom of heaven, but the star/messenger who forgets his first love, God says has. Scripture interprets scripture, the whole point of Revelation 1-3 is to acclimate us to this symbolic language of candlesticks, stars and numbers. Moreover, [pipto], the same word in Luke 16 that is translated fail. Or in Revelation 7 where it means fall, but is translated "light on" because light falls on us.

So yes, the unfaithful church as the star fell because God is bringing judgment upon her and will now "remove His Church" out of its place, as He promised! It is God's doing, as is the opening of the pit! But he uses man to bring this evil, this evil doesn't just drop out of the sky. Look at the language circumspectly.

Revelation 9:1

• "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

The star in this context represent unfaithful church where false prophets and christs rule. When the star fell from heaven, He was given the keys of the abyss, just as the disciples were given the keys of the kingdom by Christ. There is no contradiction or inconsistency here. Just a fulfilling of the promise Christ made to the star of Ephesus. That if she didn't repent and remember from whence she had fallen, God would remove the star's Church out of its place. And that is where the wormwood comes in. Selah!

Christ = Star
Saints = Stars
Professed Christians/false prophets = fallen stars
Unfaithful church = fallen star
Key = authority.

Therefore, in Revelation 9, God did not talk about fallen star as "human messenger" but unfaithful church as fallen messenger who will be responsible for loosening Satan because of her unfaithfulness so God will use Satan as a tool of judgment upon HER! This is how Babylon the Great is being destroyed by the beast.

Selah!

@rwb

 

[TribulationSigns]

o Satan is a Cherub.

False.

o. Satan's angels followed him in a rebellion in heaven.

Typical church traditional doctrine with false interpretation of Revelation 12:4. You do not even know what the dragon's tail represents that drew third part of the stars of heaven.

o. They were all exiled to earth.

Sigh! No. They did not fall from literal heaven. But the kingdom of heaven which is the congregation. In this context, it is the Old Testament congregation. Who are Satan's messengers in the congregation at that time. Humm?

 

[TribulationSigns]

All the major previous translators and commentators are wrong, apart from you and TS? Yea right!

Yep! If you understand the stars correctly through the Word of God.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is supposed to be proof that cherubs are not angels. Basically: because TribulationSigns says so. According to him, we should not take the Bible literal. Spiritual and physical realities are not real. Angels are not real. Satan is not real. Demons are not real. What is next? What about Jesus? What about God?

Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

How many humans have you seen flying about with wings on their back?

This is frankly so ridiculous.

Sounds like you are confused and had no clues what God talked about!

 

[Jack]

Satan clearly has access to Earth trying to destroy all of us!