Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you not know the saints are judging the world NOW! Every time a saint faithfully proclaims the gospel of the Kingdom of God whoever hears is being judged through the Word. Because there is spiritual power in the Word of God, for those who hear and believes are judged worthy of eternal life, and those who hear and continue in unbelief are judged worthy of damnation/death.

Why do you rarely address what is actually said? The timing of the judging of the world was not mentioned and has nothing to do with the point that was made. The point was that the passage from 1 Corinthians 6 differentiates between men and angels. That men and angels are separate beings is something you already know, but your buddy TribulationSigns doesn't understand this because he does not believe in the existence of angels as spirit beings who are separate beings from human beings.

Saints also judge HUMAN MESSENGERS of God by what is taught. Are they teaching truth or lies/errors? If truth, the saints who are the messengers of God will judge elders and shepherds worthy, if lies/errors the elders and shepherds will be judged unfaithful liars and deceivers.

Since you do believe in angels, why in the world would you deny that Paul is talking about us judging angels in that passage? TribulationSigns has your wrapped around his false teaching finger with his nonsense. To the point that you can't even discern when scripture is talking about angels even though you do believe they exist. Because you have read and agreed with so much of his nonsense, you are now completely confused.

Paul shows why it's important to raise up wise, noble, honorable, faithful God-fearing men to shepherd/overseer the flock of God. Because the saints are to be judges over any disputes we have among us, rather than taking these things before the ungodly of the world. It would be better for us to take our differences to those who are the least esteemed, i.e. have a Christ-like heart for serving, rather than look to the world of unbelief. Because Christ, before departing this world gave good gifts to His saints, "apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Saints should certainly be able to judge between themselves rather than seeking advice and judgement from the unbelieving world.

1 Corinthians 6:1-5 (KJV) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Surely you do not believe that saints will be judges over angels of God that are spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation! What would we judge them for? Do you believe saints are going to judge Satan because you believe he and his demonic hosts are fallen angels of God?

Yes, of course! Why would we judge God's angels? I agree that would make no sense. But, your inability to see that Satan and his demonic hosts are fallen angels leads you to deny that the verse is talking about angels. Scripture teaches that we have authority over Satan and his angels, so that's why Paul says we will even judge angels in some sense. Even though every single English translation in existence translates the Greek word as angels in that verse, you still deny that it's talking about angels because of your failure to understand that everything God created was very good which includes the being Satan and all of the demons/devils, which means they are fallen angels who sinned and left their first estate, as scripture indicates (Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4).

Will we become the judges, or does the Bible show us that God Himself is the JUDGE of the whole world through His Word and Spirit?

It says we will judge the world and judge angels. It's very clear. It's not made clear what that means exactly, but it has to do with the kind of authority that we have because we belong to the King and are priests in His kingdom (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6). Jesus is the Judge (John 5:22) and will judge all, but there is some sense in which we will take part in that.

 

[WPM]

This is just a blatant lie. We have made many arguments from the Word of God that you have completely ignored.


Show us where the Word of God teaches that the anointed cherub who protects the holy mountain of God and was created perfect in all his ways represents a fallen man or fallen humanity, as you claim. Since you're a self proclaimed expert on the Word of God, I'm sure you'll have no trouble showing us that.

He is incapable of addressing any of the many holes in his argument. Talk about hypocrisy. He is full of projection.

 

[WPM]

Are his questions too difficult for you? You seem to be offended by questions and by people wanting you to back up your claims with scripture for some reason. You seem to think that claiming things like saying that evil beings like Satan and his angels/demons are not fallen angels is a legitimate thing to claim despite the fact that everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31). And that the anointed cherub who protects the holy mountain of God who was created perfect in all his ways somehow represents fallen man. With no proof whatsoever to back up that claim. But, somehow you are the one proclaiming truths supported by the Word of God?

Avoidance is the MO of those who espouse error.

 

[WPM]

Why do you rarely address what is actually said? The timing of the judging of the world was not mentioned and has nothing to do with the point that was made. The point was that the passage from 1 Corinthians 6 differentiates between men and angels. That men and angels are separate beings is something you already know, but your buddy TribulationSigns doesn't understand this because he does not believe in the existence of angels as spirit beings who are separate beings from human beings.


Since you do believe in angels, why in the world would you deny that Paul is talking about us judging angels in that passage? TribulationSigns has your wrapped around his false teaching finger with his nonsense. To the point that you can't even discern when scripture is talking about angels even though you do believe they exist. Because you have read and agreed with so much of his nonsense, you are now completely confused.


Yes, of course! Why would we judge God's angels? I agree that would make no sense. But, your inability to see that Satan and his demonic hosts are fallen angels leads you to deny that the verse is talking about angels. Scripture teaches that we have authority over Satan and his angels, so that's why Paul says we will even judge angels in some sense. Even though every single English translation in existence translates the Greek word as angels in that verse, you still deny that it's talking about angels because of your failure to understand that everything God created was very good which includes the being Satan and all of the demons/devils, which means they are fallen angels who sinned and left their first estate, as scripture indicates (Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4).


It says we will judge the world and judge angels. It's very clear. It's not made clear what that means exactly, but it has to do with the kind of authority that we have because we belong to the King and are priests in His kingdom (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6). Jesus is the Judge (John 5:22) and will judge all, but there is some sense in which we will take part in that.

Debating TS and rwb on this subject is like debating Pretribbers on a Pretrib thread. They avoid or twist every Scripture that forbids their error and they avoid every question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Avoidance is the MO of those who espouse error.

Agree. It's something we see frequently here and it is usually something associated with pre-tribs, so it's surprising to see it from him.

 

[rwb]

You spiritualize everything away because it exposes your teaching.

This is talking about the judgment. Human Christians will judge both the wicked and angels. Fact! Your constant battle is with Scripture.

This is the typical response from you! If you believe I spiritualized away 1Cor 6:1-5 prove from the Word of God how I have done this! I'm not interested in opinions, if you allege prove! What "judgment" are you referring to? Please show through Scripture how Christians bringing the gospel of the Kingdom of God is not how saints bring judgment of both life and death depending on believing or remaining in unbelief. Where are references from the Bible that prove that Christ alone is Judge, both through the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed, as well as before the GWT? It is you, not I who battles against TRUTH!

2 Corinthians 2:15-17 (KJV) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[rwb]

1. Was the king of Tyrus an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16)?
2. Was he at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13)?
3. Did he protect "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14)?
4. Was he created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15)?
5. Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!

 

[rwb]

LOL. I quoted Scripture and expounded it. You explain away every Scripture presented to in order for you to justify your error. You avoid multiple questions. You have to!

Your heresy is in tatters on this thread. The sad thing is you don't see it.

No you give your opinions without proving what you allege! You've yet to prove Satan was created an angel of God before becoming Satan! You've been shown how your opinions are not supported by the Word of God, and in fact force contradiction and confusion into the Word of God.

 

[rwb]

You have to avoid these questions, because they absolutely demolish your thesis. You have been doing it the whole thread. You and TS have nothing to bring to the table.

I refer the reader back to evidence on every page on this thread.

Why are you avoiding the questions I've put forward? If Satan was a created angel of God called an anointed cherub, in the paradise of God why can't you prove it from the Bible, how he, not man was to protect the hoy mountain of God?

 

[rwb]

Avoidance is the MO of those who espouse error.

I absolutely agree! Which is why you continue to avoid answering questions that prove Satan was NOT created an angel of God who became Satan! You often point out what you believe are contradiction and errors from others, but when it comes to contradictions and errors that your doctrines foist upon the word of God, you become blinded through PRIDE! You and SI have nothing but opinions which is easy to prove simply by all the pages you've plastered here that are without a single verse from the Bible!

 

[rwb]

Debating TS and rwb on this subject is like debating Pretribbers on a Pretrib thread. They avoid or twist every Scripture that forbids their error and they avoid every question.

Debating you and SI on this subject is like debating immature children, professing to be Christians, lacking ALL understanding of the difference between angels of God and Satan!

 

[WPM]

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!

Once again. Check the Op. What are you scared of. Again you totally avoid each question. The reader can deduce why. Your teaching is absurd and heretical.

1. Was the king of Tyrus an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16)?
2. Was he at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13)?
3. Did he protect "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14)?
4. Was he created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15)?
5. Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?

 

[WPM]

Why are you avoiding the questions I've put forward? If Satan was a created angel of God called an anointed cherub, in the paradise of God why can't you prove it from the Bible, how he, not man was to protect the hoy mountain of God?

Check the Op. What have you to hide?

 

[rwb]

Once again. Check the Op. What are you scared of. Again you totally avoid each question. The reader can deduce why. Your teaching is absurd and heretical.

1. Was the king of Tyrus an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16)?
2. Was he at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13)?
3. Did he protect "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14)?
4. Was he created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15)?
5. Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!

 

[rwb]

Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?

Man, not Satan fell from the high position God created them to be, and through sin brought death and depravity unto ALL HUMANITY! Satan, never having been the highest angel of God who fell from this high position through pride and arrogance, is EXACTLY who and what he has always been from the beginning, a liar and murderer. Pride and arrogance did not cause an angel of God to become Satan, the serpent (Satan) was always more subtil and cunning in a bad way (Gen 3:1) than any other created thing from the beginning. Which is how God uses him and his minions (demonic & human) to test/try the hearts of men who profess to be righteous but become prideful and arrogant like him. That is the picture the parables/lamentations portray for us. We should learn a lesson through the pride filled king of how God both builds up but also tears down a man whose heart is filled with pride.

 

[rwb]

Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity.

This, from the OP is the lie that has been perpetuated throughout the church from the start and now also has been perpetuated throughout these 43 pages.

No, I agree Satan is not a physical being but is an invisible demon spirit from the beginning. He has never been an angel of God, that are and all always have been ministering spirits sent from God to minister to the heirs of salvation. Satan has always been a liar and murderer, a demon spirit, who enters into the hearts and minds of unbelieving human beings to entice them to do his will. When the spirit of Satan enters into the hearts and minds of man, they so closely resemble him in character and actions they are said to be of their father the devil, sons of the evil one. In that sense he is an invisible force, a MESSENGER NOT ANGEL, of evil.

From creation Satan, a serpent more subtil; cunning (usually in a bad sense):—crafty, prudent, a devil to beware of used his natural abilities to deceive the woman, who was also able to deceive the man.

From this depiction from the Word of God, at the beginning of creation, how can anyone argue the serpent, who is Satan, a shrewd spirit was an angel of God who became Satan? Then go on to argue Satan was an anointed cherub, because it is wrongly believed that cherub/cherubim, seraph/seraphim are angels of God?

 

[WPM]

This, from the OP is the lie that has been perpetuated throughout the church from the start and now also has been perpetuated throughout these 43 pages.

No, I agree Satan is not a physical being but is an invisible demon spirit from the beginning. He has never been an angel of God, that are and all always have been ministering spirits sent from God to minister to the heirs of salvation. Satan has always been a liar and murderer, a demon spirit, who enters into the hearts and minds of unbelieving human beings to entice them to do his will. When the spirit of Satan enters into the hearts and minds of man, they so closely resemble him in character and actions they are said to be of their father the devil, sons of the evil one. In that sense he is an invisible force, a MESSENGER NOT ANGEL, of evil.

From creation Satan, a serpent more subtil; cunning (usually in a bad sense):—crafty, prudent, a devil to beware of used his natural abilities to deceive the woman, who was also able to deceive the man.

From this depiction from the Word of God, at the beginning of creation, how can anyone argue the serpent, who is Satan, a shrewd spirit was an angel of God who became Satan? Then go on to argue Satan was an anointed cherub, because it is wrongly believed that cherub/cherubim, seraph/seraphim are angels of God?

Everyone is wrong apart from you and TS? Yea right!

You are both yet to lay a punch on the Op. Please address.

 

[rwb]

Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Exodus 12:29 (KJV) And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Was it the LORD, who smote the firstborn in the land of Egypt an evil angel of God?

OR did the LORD use evil spirits to bring about the death of the firstborn in the land of Egypt, in the same way the LORD uses evil to accomplish His purposes throughout Scripture? In the same way the LORD sent an evil spirit to trouble Saul.

Psalm 78:49 (KJV) He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [SPIRIT MESSENGERS] among them.

1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

 

[rwb]

Jud 1:6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates: “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gr. tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

Hello! This is talking about angels that sinned at the beginning and therefore fell. Adam and Eve were not angels. They are not held in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” God redeemed them. He made an atoning sacrifice for them in the Garden and gave them a righteous covering. Who else is this speaking about than Satan and his demons?

Here again, the translators through bias believing Satan to be a fallen angel of God write angels when the correct translation is messengers, who were human beings not fallen spirit angels of God, not even demon spirits. But humans who were to be ambassadors of God, like righteous Noah, who, like their first parents fell from the high position they originally held, and became like the children of the evil one.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven. Interestingly the demonic angels are depicted as “stars.” It reads: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon ... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

In Revelation 12:4, 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. They sided with him when he fell, and are part of the kingdom of darkness.

How can the stars be symbolic of angels who sided with Satan and fell after reading them belonging to the crown upon the woman's head of twelve stars? Is this not reference to Joseph's dream that the sun, moon, and eleven stars made obeisance to him? Are the stars not symbolically the nation of Old who like the sons of God before them fell from the high position God had given the nation of Old that they too, like the sons of God in the days of Noah, were to be the Light of God unto the world?

Revelation 12:1-2 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Genesis 37:9 (KJV) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.