Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[WPM]

Whose avoiding? Prove "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels"!!! Deflection is always your go to reply!

I showed it in the Op, but you and your teachers are ducking around it.

 

[rwb]

I showed it in the Op, but you and your teachers are ducking around it.

This is your classic go to reply.....DEFLECTION!

 

[WPM]

This is your classic go to reply.....DEFLECTION!

Just continual avoidance! Sad!

You have to. If you had a rebuttal you would give it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is your classic go to reply.....DEFLECTION!

You are being extremely childish here by acting as if he has not addressed those things when the truth is that he has done so multiple times in this thread, including in the OP. Why are you demanding him to address things that he has already addressed multiple times in this thread? Just go back and read his OP if you want to know how he addresses the topic of stars representing angels. Is that too hard for you to do?

Here, let me help you out. You can click here and read it for yourself: Original Thread Post

Once you've read what he said there you can then quote the relevant parts of what he said here and discuss what he said about the topic like an adult.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I showed it in the Op, but you and your teachers are ducking around it.

He is demanding that you repeat yourself instead of just taking a short amount of time to read your OP where you commented in detail about the topic of stars representing angels. Sad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Twelve stars in Rev 12 represents the full number of the tribes of Israel who are human and not angels.

No one is claiming that stars always represent angels in scripture, so don't waste time with strawman arguments.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What makes you believe angels or humans fly back and forth from heaven?

Genesis 28:10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

This figuratively portrays angels as going back and forth between heaven and earth. They don't do so literally by means of a literal stairway, but it does indicate that they go back and forth between heaven and earth.

What do you think, that angels spend all of their time on earth or all of their time in heaven?

 

[rwb]

Genesis 28:10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

This figuratively portrays angels as going back and forth between heaven and earth. They don't do so literally by means of a literal stairway, but it does indicate that they go back and forth between heaven and earth.

What do you think, that angels spend all of their time on earth or all of their time in heaven?

Did Jacob see angels flying to and fro? No! Jacob saw angels climbing up and down on a ladder.

No one is claiming that stars always represent angels in scripture, so don't waste time with strawman arguments.

That's the problem? Trying to force stars to represent angels in the verses used from the OP does NOT prove "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels". Forcing contradiction and confusion into the Bible! It seems you desire to pick and choose when stars must be angels to support opinions and not truth.

 

[rwb]

He is demanding that you repeat yourself instead of just taking a short amount of time to read your OP where you commented in detail about the topic of stars representing angels. Sad.

None of the verses used in the OP support the opinion that stars represent angels, nor do they prove "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did Jacob see angels flying to and fro? No! Jacob saw angels climbing up and down on a ladder.

LOL. Do you really think the point he was making relates to exactly how they go back and forth rather than making the point that they go back and forth between heaven and earth? Who cares how exactly they do it. The point is that they go back and forth between heaven and earth and that is not something that would describe humans.

Now, proving that angels exist is not something that you need to be convinced of, I don't think. You do believe in the existence of angels who are spirit beings that serve God, right? I believe you have confirmed that before. But, there's at least one other person here who denies the existence of angels, so that's why WPM has spent time proving their existence.

That's the problem? Trying to force stars to represent angels in the verses used from the OP does NOT prove "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels".

How about actually addressing what he said in the OP about the topic? Is that too much to ask?

Forcing contradiction and confusion into the Bible! It seems you desire to pick and choose when stars must be angels to support opinions and not truth.

Your false accusations do nothing but make you look foolish. Leave the false accusations out of it and just address the argument that was made. If you actually read what he said objectively and still conclude that stars never symbolically represent angels, so be it. But, read what he said about it objectively and see what you think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None of the verses used in the OP support the opinion that stars represent angels, nor do they prove "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels."

That's your opinion, but how about actually quoting what he said and showing exactly why you disagree with what he said instead of demanding that he repeat himself? His answer to your question relating to stars being angels can be found in the OP. He's not going to say anything different now than what he said there about that topic. Is it too much to ask you to address what he said and show exactly why you disagree with it or do you not want to make any effort to show why you disagree?

 

[rwb]

LOL. Do you really think the point he was making relates to exactly how they go back and forth rather than making the point that they go back and forth between heaven and earth? Who cares how exactly they do it. The point is that they go back and forth between heaven and earth and that is not something that would describe humans.

SO! Who has argued humans go back and forth between heaven and earth?

How about actually addressing what he said in the OP about the topic? Is that too much to ask?

Yes, you and wpm would love to deflect back to the OP to discuss ad nauseum what has already been addressed throughout these 48 pages.

Your false accusations do nothing but make you look foolish. Leave the false accusations out of it and just address the argument that was made. If you actually read what he said objectively and still conclude that stars never symbolically represent angels, so be it. But, read what he said about it objectively and see what you think.

It's not false accusation! This entire conversation is driven by the belief that Satan was created a good angel of God and became Satan through disobedience. That false assumption/opinion has been repeatedly shown to cause contradiction and confusion through plain verses of Scripture telling us that Satan has NEVER been good, nor has he ever been an angel of God, because God tells us the angels are spirits sent forth to minister to the heirs of salvation. Since the Bible tells us who and what Satan is and how he operates in the hearts and minds of man to deceive, lie, steal and kill, you and wpm refuse to show how Satan can be created good and also be a liar and murderer from the beginning so you try to deflect instead of addressing this FACT.

Lastly, why would I conclude that stars might symbolically represent angels since I've not found a single verse of Scripture to support that opinion?

 

[rwb]

That's your opinion, but how about actually quoting what he said and showing exactly why you disagree with what he said instead of demanding that he repeat himself? His answer to your question relating to stars being angels can be found in the OP. He's not going to say anything different now than what he said there about that topic. Is it too much to ask you to address what he said and show exactly why you disagree with it or do you not want to make any effort to show why you disagree?

You seem to think that repeating the same unbiblical arguments again and again will somehow make your opinions truth. Throughout these 48 pages, as well as other posts the verses used in the OP have already been shown and ignored that they do not support your unbiblical opinion regarding Satan and angels.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You cannot lecture anyone.

I can.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Where does the Bible speak of angels as stars as you and others assume? The only way we might arrive at that conclusion is by reading our OPINION into the Word of God!

BINGO!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

SO! Who has argued humans go back and forth between heaven and earth?

LOL. No one. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. The point being made is not against someone saying that humans go back and forth between heaven and earth, but rather against someone saying that angels, as in created spirit beings called angels, do not exist. So, showing a description of angels going back and forth between heaven, which only angels can do (not humans) can be used as evidence for the existence of angels.

Yes, you and wpm would love to deflect back to the OP to discuss ad nauseum what has already been addressed throughout these 48 pages.

LOL. You are truly hilarious. You are the one wanting him to tell you something that he has already said. What does that say about you? It seems to say that what has already been said about this is something you'd rather ignore than actually address it. Or, if you think you already have addressed it, why are you asking him to tell you something that he has already said and that you already addressed?

It's not false accusation!

Yes, it is! You said "It seems you desire to pick and choose when stars must be angels to support opinions and not truth.". Wrong! I desire to discern when stars refer to angels and when they don't without making any assumptions one way or another regarding any given verse that references stars. I believe in scripture stars sometimes symbolically represent angels, sometimes represent the twelve apostles, sometimes Joseph's brothers and sometimes refer to literal stars. It depends on the context in any given verse that stars are referenced.

This entire conversation is driven by the belief that Satan was created a good angel of God and became Satan through disobedience.

No, that's not the only thing that this thread is about. Look at the title of the thread. It says "Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man". So, that is the primary claim that is being argued against in this thread. After 48 pages you still haven't even figured that out which shows your lack of attention to detail.

The poster @TribulationSigns denies the existence of created spirit beings called angels. So, that is what is being refuted when showing scriptures that clearly refer to the existence of spirit beings called angels who serve God and are able to go back and forth between heaven and earth.

That false assumption/opinion has been repeatedly shown to cause contradiction and confusion through plain verses of Scripture telling us that Satan has NEVER been good, nor has he ever been an angel of God, because God tells us the angels are spirits sent forth to minister to the heirs of salvation.

Yet, you have no answer for why you believe that God created Satan and demons to be very bad despite scripture saying that everything He created was very good (Genesis 1:31). Why do you have no interest in holding a position that you can reconcile with ALL of scripture?

Since the Bible tells us who and what Satan is and how he operates in the hearts and minds of man to deceive, lie, steal and kill, you and wpm refuse to show how Satan can be created good and also be a liar and murderer from the beginning so you try to deflect instead of addressing this FACT.

I don't recall what he said about that in particular, but I have said that He was not created to be a liar and murderer from the very moment he was created. It's not talking about the beginning of his existence, but rather from the beginning of the creation of the earth when we're first introduced to him. Do you not know that the angels witnessed the creation of the earth? So, their beginning was even before the earth was created.

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So, whether you believe Satan is a fallen angel or not, the fact that the angels were created before the earth was created shows that God created spirit beings before He created human beings. So, when it says that Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning, it's not talking about the beginning of his existence and the beginning of the creation of spirit beings, but rather the beginning of the creation of the earth or, more specifically, the beginning of the existence of human beings. So, as soon as human beings began to be created starting with Adam and Eve, Satan was lying to them and he no doubt contributed to influencing Cain to kill Abel, also. So, he was a liar and murderer from the beginning in that sense.

Lastly, why would I conclude that stars might symbolically represent angels since I've not found a single verse of Scripture to support that opinion?

You must not be looking very hard. And you apparently have still not looked carefully at WPM's OP. I'll post the passage from Job above again here.

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who else could these "morning stars" who were there when God was creating the earth be except for angels? When Revelation 12 talks about a war in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels and it talks about the dragon, who represents Satan, as drawing a third of the stars of heaven and casting them down to the earth, what else can that be talking about except Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven? It's not as if humans can be cast down from heaven to earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem to think that repeating the same unbiblical arguments again and again will somehow make your opinions truth.

That's funny. That's exactly how I feel about you. So, we have that in common.

Throughout these 48 pages, as well as other posts the verses used in the OP have already been shown and ignored that they do not support your unbiblical opinion regarding Satan and angels.

In your mind, but not in the mind of any objective person who doesn't cherry pick and twist scripture the way you guys do.

 

[William Barton]

What particular context in your opinion warrants angels being depicted as stars? The Bible sometimes uses the imagery of stars to depict people, but I do not find the Bible pattern representing stars as angels. That is reading one's opinion into the text.

"Angel" in the New Testament is Greek αγγελος = messenger.

Where does the Bible speak of angels as stars as you and others assume? The only way we might arrive at that conclusion is by reading our OPINION into the Word of God!

Revelation 1:20. It's a figure of speech, like calling an actress or an athlete a star.

 

[William Barton]

What people fall from heaven before the coming of Christ?

IMO: Enoch and Elijah (who are never said to have died) are the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What people fall from heaven before the coming of Christ?

IMO: Enoch and Elijah (who are never said to have died) are the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13).

So, you are saying that you think Enoch and Elijah fell or will fall from heaven?