Why the great chain?

[ewq1938]

I would say Satan was bound and at the same time he did walk around like a roaring lion in Babylon, which was his cage after being bound.

That ignores that he is bound AND imprisoned in the pit which has a lock and a seal upon it. He can't walk around like a lion potentially attacking Christians during that time.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

When do you see Satan being caged in Babylon?

Never. It has nothing to do with satan personally. Satan will be sent to the pit around the timeframe of the fall of Babylon.

 

[Marty fox]

2 Peter 2
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Please see post #45 in the following thread:

When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?

Satan is still NOT BOUND in his pit prison yet today. And that prison is IN THE HEAVENLY dimension, by the way. The 70 A.D. theory happened because the Church back then saw God's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army, and thought that was a sign that Christ's Kingdom had...

www.christianityboard.com

Yes amen thanks I a good way to look at it spiritually bound from heaven

 

[grafted branch]

Never. It has nothing to do with satan personally. Satan will be sent to the pit around the timeframe of the fall of Babylon.

Your view is that Revelation 18 takes place in the millennium, after Satan is already in the bottomless pit?

 

[ewq1938]

Your view is that Revelation 18 takes place in the millennium, after Satan is already in the bottomless pit?

After the Mill, satan in the pit in the same timeframe as the fall of Babylon.

 

[talons]

Satan is NOT a created being God. He is a spirit of evil in all unsaved people becasue of the fall. This is why Satan was introduced in the garden of Eden right at the time of the fall. Man was perfect, and then by LUST for the fruit, that desire (spirit) brought forth sin.

The bold part , according to you everyone has been demonically possessed . Not possible .

The spirit was CONCEIVED within Adam and Eve when they disobeyed. Satan or the Serpent was merely SYMBOLIC of THAT spirit. You don't pick up literal serpents, do you? So you need to understand that Christ was using the serpents as symbolically, not someone Christ said He created.

Wow , this is wilder than Augustine's Sin Nature junk .

Are you saying satan got his start right there in Adam and Eve ? If not where did satan start ? Satan is a spirit , right ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

The bold part , according to you everyone has been demonically possessed . Not possible .

Yes. Do you realize that all men are spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1)? We all walk according to the flesh and the world. We all are called "children of disobedience." These are in Scripture. Look it up yourself.

Are you saying satan got his start right there in Adam and Eve ?

Yes! It started with Eve, and applied to all of us before we were born again with Spirit of Christ.

Eph 2:2-3

• Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
• Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

You need to think carefully. When Eve sinned, where does or did that spirit comes from? Did God create it for her? No, it is her own disobedience, not something that God created to make her sin.

Ps 78:8

• And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

What spirit is that and did God create it in the first place? No, man bears responsibility for his own spirit. Because of Adam's fall, it can't be a right spirit without Christ.

If not where did satan start ? Satan is a spirit , right ?

The spirit of Satan started when Eve lusted after the fruit. When was when the iniquity was found in her. For example:

Ezekiel 28:15:

• “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

The iniquity arises from her own will, not from God creating angel that become evil or a human king (king Tyre). King Tyre of Ezzekiel 28 is a typological representation of fallen humanity, not as a literal human king or a reference to Satan. God is showing the pattern of human rebellion: beings are created upright, but sin appears when moral choice goes contrary to God. This is why God call us to lamentation over fallen man who is a representative of all mankind, whose sinfulness has devastating consequences.
Therefore, like the "king of Tyre" typology, Eve and Adam was created upright, perfect in spirit. Sin (iniquity) appeared in HER OWN WILL when she chose contrary to god's command. The "spirit of disobedience" in humans is OUR OWN WILL TURNED AWAY FROM GOD, not a pre-existing evil implanted by Satan or merely Satan's acting in us.

We need to remember that God did not create sin. Nor he is the author of Sin. Humans were created perfect and sin appears only when they exercises its own will apart from God. The Ezekiel typology reinforces that - it is about human moral responsibility, not literal historical kings or so called celestical beings.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The bold part , according to you everyone has been demonically possessed . Not possible .

Yes.

 

[TribulationSigns]

View attachment 80515

Silly you. You did not include the rest of my post. When I say that we were once under spiritual bondage, I mean that, before we were born again in Christ, we were spiritually enslaved to sin, the world, and the influence of own disobedience. This doesn’t mean that every person was "literally demon-possessed" as you think. Rather, it means that we were spiritually powerless to save ourselves or fully live in God’s truth.

So, I’m saying that before Christ, all people are in a state of spiritual captivity or slavery, not that everyone literally had demons inside them.

 

[rwb]

The bold part , according to you everyone has been demonically possessed . Not possible .

How do you define being demonically possessed? You would do well to notice the subtilty of how the devil operates in the heart and mind of those whom he possesses. Those who remain in unbelief without the Spirit of Christ in them!

John 6:70-71 (KJV) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Those who are in unbelief having a devil within them as Judas Iscariot obliviously did, are used by their father to do his bidding, while at the same time appearing to be messengers of LIGHT.

 

[rwb]

Silly you. You did not include the rest of my post. When I say that we were once under spiritual bondage, I mean that, before we were born again in Christ, we were spiritually enslaved to sin, the world, and the influence of own disobedience. This doesn’t mean that every person was "literally demon-possessed" as you think. Rather, it means that we were spiritually powerless to save ourselves or fully live in God’s truth.

So, I’m saying that before Christ, all people are in a state of spiritual captivity or slavery, not that everyone literally had demons inside them.

Exactly! It's foolish to believe only people who foam at the mouth and throw themselves into fire are demon possessed. If Satan operated that obviously we wouldn't need the constant warnings in Scripture warning us of his deceptive ways. Nor would we be warned that he and those under his power appear to be messengers of light, looking and sounding so much like faithful saints that if it were possible even the elect of God could be deceived instead of being eternally saved.

You state the absolute truth " before Christ, all people are in a state of spiritual captivity or slavery, not that everyone literally had demons inside them"! Whosoever has ears to hear will hear the words of warnings, sadly, not all will hear and receive the truth!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Silly you. You did not include the rest of my post. When I say that we were once under spiritual bondage, I mean that, before we were born again in Christ, we were spiritually enslaved to sin, the world, and the influence of own disobedience. This doesn’t mean that every person was "literally demon-possessed" as you think.

You can see the question he asked and you knew what he was asking. You answered "yes". Your beliefs are ludicrous no matter how you want to spin it.

Rather, it means that we were spiritually powerless to save ourselves or fully live in God’s truth.

So, I’m saying that before Christ, all people are in a state of spiritual captivity or slavery, not that everyone literally had demons inside them.

Then don't say "yes" to a question asking if everyone has been demon-possessed. You knew what he was asking.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly! It's foolish to believe only people who foam at the mouth and throw themselves into fire are demon possessed. If Satan operated that obviously we wouldn't need the constant warnings in Scripture warning us of his deceptive ways. Nor would we be warned that he and those under his power appear to be messengers of light, looking and sounding so much like faithful saints that if it were possible even the elect of God could be deceived instead of being eternally saved.

You state the absolute truth " before Christ, all people are in a state of spiritual captivity or slavery, not that everyone literally had demons inside them"! Whosoever has ears to hear will hear the words of warnings, sadly, not all will hear and receive the truth!

The question asked related to people literally being possessed by demons and you both know it. Your attempts to spin things now are embarrassing (for you).

 

[talons]

Yes.

Matt 5:37

Do you realize that all men are spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1)? We all walk according to the flesh and the world. We all are called "children of disobedience." These are in Scripture. Look it up yourself.

As you know I did go to sunday school and this is elementary and Yes we must be born again .

Yes! It started with Eve, and applied to all of us before we were born again with Spirit of Christ.

Eph 2:2-3

• Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
• Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

You need to think carefully. When Eve sinned, where does or did that spirit comes from? Did God create it for her? No, it is her own disobedience, not something that God created to make her sin.

Ps 78:8

• And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

What spirit is that and did God create it in the first place? No, man bears responsibility for his own spirit. Because of Adam's fall, it can't be a right spirit without Christ.

All humans have something called the flesh , as Christians our flesh was crucified on the cross along with Jesus .
But will still always have the flesh to contend with .
Did Eve have fleshly desire for the fruit and the power it would bring , yes she did . The prompting from the nachash was not helpful to say the least .

Galatians 5:17 Context​

14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

We have no "sin nature " or satan in all of us .

If you say satan is/was inside you when did it get there ?

 

[William Barton]

Marty Fox asked about "chain."

IMO:
Satan is a cherub with a physical body, no reason he could not be chained, with a strong ("great") chain. Sad, because he at one time served in the very Presence of God, in the true temple in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Marty Fox asked about "chain."

IMO:
Satan is a cherub with a physical body, no reason he could not be chained, with a strong ("great") chain. Sad, because he at one time served in the very Presence of God, in the true temple in heaven.

How can a being with a physical body enter into a human being?

Luke 22:1 Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2 and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

John 13:26 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
"Entered into" = "influenced." I do not know the process of demon influence. Satan likewise tempted Eve to sin, through the serpent (Genesis 1:3-4, Revelation 12:9).

 

[PinSeeker]

Might be... somewhat... interesting to know what each individual here thinks "Satan entered into him" actually means... That seems to be a big issue in just about every thread and every topic discussed on here. Maybe the first step is to define the specifics first, and agree on that if possible, and then talk about the topic at hand. If you don't agree on certain definitions of particulars first, there's probably no way you'll ever come to agreement on the big picture.

So William says 'influenced.' While I would agree, that is a bit short of the mark, I think. But acceptable. So, whether he thinks Satan has a physical body or not it seems matters not. So to the question of whether a being with a physical body can enter into a human being... well of course not, but that's irrelevant.

I'm... amazed, I guess, at some of the issues that get raised on this board.... <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[William Barton]

Might be... somewhat... interesting to know what each individual here thinks "Satan entered into him" actually means... That seems to be a big issue in just about every thread and every topic discussed on here. Maybe the first step is to define the specifics first, and agree on that if possible, and then talk about the topic at hand. If you don't agree on certain definitions of particulars first, there's probably no way you'll ever come to agreement on the big picture.

So William says 'influenced.' While I would agree, that is a bit short of the mark, I think. But acceptable. So, whether he thinks Satan has a physical body or not it seems matters not. So to the question of whether a being with a physical body can enter into a human being... well of course not, but that's irrelevant.

I'm... amazed, I guess, at some of the issues that get raised on this board.... <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

Satan (a.k.a. Lucifer = "light bearer") surely has a body, he is a cherub. Try an internet search: Lucifer Cherub.

Currently he is entombed within the earth (Revelation 20:3), but he will be released after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10) and obliterated, along with the old heavens and earth (Revelation 21:1).

 

[PinSeeker]

Currently he is entombed within the earth (Revelation 20:3)...

Hmmm, "entombed," or "bound"... another very misunderstood concept...

, but he will be released after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10)...

And "the millennium"... different understandings among many regarding the nature of this "thousand years" and when it is...

and obliterated...

And "obliterated"... <chuckles> Not in the sense of annihilation...

...along with the old heavens and earth (Revelation 21:1).

Right, all will be made brand new, as God says in Revelation 21:5. He does not say, "Behold, I am making all new things." <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Might be... somewhat... interesting to know what each individual here thinks "Satan entered into him" actually means... That seems to be a big issue in just about every thread and every topic discussed on here. Maybe the first step is to define the specifics first, and agree on that if possible, and then talk about the topic at hand. If you don't agree on certain definitions of particulars first, there's probably no way you'll ever come to agreement on the big picture.

So William says 'influenced.' While I would agree, that is a bit short of the mark, I think. But acceptable. So, whether he thinks Satan has a physical body or not it seems matters not. So to the question of whether a being with a physical body can enter into a human being... well of course not, but that's irrelevant.

I'm... amazed, I guess, at some of the issues that get raised on this board.... <smile>

If you understood the reason why he is claiming that Satan has a body, then you wouldn't question why it is an issue for him to believe that. This thread asks why is the chain that binds the dragon, Satan, a great chain. Premils think of Satan's binding as a literal binding, as if he can be chained up the same way a human being can. So, they see his binding as resulting in him being completely incapacitated the way a human being chained up and bound in a dungeon would be. So, it's not surprising that some premils would try to claim that Satan has a physical body and can be literally chained up with a literal chain in order to support their understanding of his binding. But, of course, a spirit being cannot be literally bound and chained up like that and Satan's binding has nothing to do with him being completely incapacitated, as you know.