Should I buy a sword?

[Anchorite]

Gotcha. This was not losing his temper. He was right and always acted righteously. It's not clear if he whipped the men or just the animals. I think that may have been enough of deterrent to cause the men to just leave. It doesn't actually say either way but that's certainly my take.

I am not a big- hey I got a gun person by any means and I would turn them in if the law forced me to. We need to obey the laws of the land unless they go against God.
But for the life of me I do not understand how stopping a mass murderer by shooting him is a sin when you are protecting the lives of innocent people. It's not something I ever hope I would have to do- no I dread the thought! But I could not stand there watching hoping the cops gets there before the last child is dead. That could be 20 min before the cops arrive and another 5 to get inside.

Scripture is very clear. Nothing in this account can be construed as Jesus making a “weapon” that was used on people.

A cow whip is a traditional working tool, distinct from a standard bullwhip, used primarily by workers in marshy and heavily wooded regions to herd cattle. It features a long, braided lash connected to a solid, inflexible wooden handle.



John 2

14 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s houseinto a market!”

 

[PS95]

Scripture is very clear. Nothing in this account can be construed as Jesus making a “weapon” that was used on people.

A cow whip is a traditional working tool, distinct from a standard bullwhip, used primarily by workers in marshy and heavily wooded regions to herd cattle. It features a long, braided lash connected to a solid, inflexible wooden handle.



John 2

14 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s houseinto a market!”

I believe that I just said that Jesus did not whip the men. It can read differently in different texts.
I had not noticed before that he made the whip.- that's all.

I am not looking to argue anything with you. Like I said- follow your own conscience on how you would act in a horrid situation. I will follow mine. I have no animosity against your decision.

 

[Gray_Joy]

Gotcha. This was not losing his temper. He was right and always acted righteously. It's not clear if he whipped the men or just the animals. I think that may have been enough of deterrent to cause the men to just leave. It doesn't actually say either way but that's certainly my take.

Righteous anger. He fashioned a whip and cleared all from the market place set before his father's house.

He could have done the same using just his stern voice. He was God on Earth. But,he fashioned a whip and then proceeded to clear all, animals and men.

I am not a big- hey I got a gun person by any means and I would turn them in if the law forced me to. We need to obey the laws of the land unless they go against God.
But for the life of me I do not understand how stopping a mass murderer by shooting him is a sin when you are protecting the lives of innocent people. It's not something I ever hope I would have to do- no I dread the thought! But I could not stand there watching hoping the cops gets there before the last child is dead. That could be 20 min before the cops arrive and another 5 to get inside.

Agreed.
There was a case where an armed officer failed to act when a school shooter set off killing people.
I don't know how a trained professional does not act to save the lives he was hired to protect.

There was CCTV footage from cameras set about the campus that showed his refusal to act.
He was prosecuted.

The DA said that the officer
hid while refusing to enter the school. Gunshots could be heard on the CCTV footage.

I wondered if he would have handed his gun to a trained civilian should they have asked for it.

The officers cowardice cost people their lives. Nineteen students and two teachers were killed.

The officer was acquitted.

 

[NayborBear]

What does this have to do with anything? Why do you keep avoiding the NT to support your position?

Here are but a coupla N.T. verses to support my "Beliefs, Convictions, Faith!":
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

And?:
1 Peter 2:
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, TO OFFER UP "SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES ACCEPTABLE TO GOD", "BY" JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't know how a trained professional does not act to save the lives he was hired to protect.

Self-preservation + selfishness. I recall he was a few weeks from retiring.

The officer was acquitted.

Despite dereliction of duty leading to death. What do you make about the thread suicidal empathy?

 

[Gray_Joy]

Self-preservation + selfishness. I recall he was a few weeks from retiring.

I had not heard that part.
I agree with your assessment.

Despite dereliction of duty leading to death.

He's freed of a prison cell but I doubt he will ever be freed of the sounds of that day.

What do you make about the thread suicidal empathy?

I was not aware of such a thread till now.

 

[Justified]

Here are but a coupla N.T. verses to support my "Beliefs, Convictions, Faith!":
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

And?:
1 Peter 2:
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, TO OFFER UP "SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES ACCEPTABLE TO GOD", "BY" JESUS CHRIST.

What do these have to with the discussion?

 

[PS95]

Righteous anger. He fashioned a whip and cleared all from the market place set before his father's house.

He could have done the same using just his stern voice. He was God on Earth. But,he fashioned a whip and then proceeded to clear all, animals and men.

I'm not convinced that He whipped the men as well. It's not clear. I will just leave that alone.
I do know that there are some Christians who see Jesus as just happy & peaceful but when He returns they'll be surprised at the result-

MATTHEW 13:49-50​

“This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” – Matthew 13:49-50

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9​

“And give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” – 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

ROMANS 2:6-8​

“God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” – Romans 2:6-8

Agreed.
There was a case where an armed officer failed to act when a school shooter set off killing people.
I don't know how a trained professional does not act to save the lives he was hired to protect.

There was CCTV footage from cameras set about the campus that showed his refusal to act.
He was prosecuted.

The DA said that the officer
hid while refusing to enter the school. Gunshots could be heard on the CCTV footage.

That almost makes me wonder if he was hired to do just that..

I wondered if he would have handed his gun to a trained civilian should they have asked for it.

The officers cowardice cost people their lives. Nineteen students and two teachers were killed.

It's a good question.

The officer was acquitted.

I see. THAT makes me wonder all the more who hired him..

 

[NayborBear]

What do these have to with the discussion?

+1 more to my ignore list!

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not convinced that He whipped the men as well. It's not clear. I will just leave that alone.

I take it as a given that men not restrained will retreat from a whipping. This is an important portrayal of a masculine Jesus standing his ground using violence to force others to yield, who is our model to follow.

I do know that there are some Christians who see Jesus as just happy & peaceful but when He returns they'll be surprised at the result-

MATTHEW 13:49-50​

“This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” – Matthew 13:49-50

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9​

“And give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” – 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

ROMANS 2:6-8​

“God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” – Romans 2:6-8

Our demanding savior replaced with a fatally empathic IDOL, tolerating and "compassionately understanding" sin. @Behold is a fanatical devotee to this IDOL. Using violence ≠ following evil, necessarily. Following evil includes tolerating it in misguided compassion. Yes, pray for our enemies now. But there comes a time to punish those who don't obey.

I'm glad you cited Romans 2:8, which depicts not kindness but anger and wrath in delivering the only punishment in the afterlife even to the believing damned, Second Death, annihilation. It's not lip service ("I believe") but action that separates the goats from the sheep.

Fatal Empathy: Are you Guilty Of?

Just heard of this idea last week and it was used in this vid of potential jurors who said they could not bring themselves to find the murderer guilty OR punish him. For a great and short 5-minute Prager U background, also check out this vid. So, the questions are: What do you think of the...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[David Lamb]

What is it that you are failing to "grasp" here?
Do you NOT realize that THESE words:
Matthew 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?...............

Are as TRUE to day? As it was here?:
Deuteronomy 32:5
They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of HIS children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

WHICH? To a "reasonable mind?" SHOULD make THIS true as well!:

Deuteronomy 32:
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
27WERE IT N0T THAT I FEARED THE WRATH OF THE ENEMY, LEST THEIR ADVERSARIES SHOULD BEHAVE THEMSELVES STRANGELY, AND LEST THEY SHOULD SAY, "OUR HAND IS HIGH!" AND "THE LORD HATH NOT DONE ALL THIS!"
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Connect the dots correctly? To see the picture MO' BETTER!

I have read through the verses that you quoted from the Bible. However, I cannot see anything in them that refers to whether Christians are in a physical war or a spiritual one.

 

[David Lamb]

Does there have to be a command in addition to buying a sword and the implications of that?

In view of clear statements about loving our enemies and doing good to those who hate us, plus the fact that we don't read in the bible of Christians attacking with swords or other physical weapons those who opposed them, I would say that a command is needed, if in fact Christians are intended by Jesus Christ to retaliate physically.

 

[David Lamb]

I agree with you, David. If we are to be killed because we refuse to deny Christ, or simply because we hold to the name of Christians- we should not kill them. We should die as martyrs and happily to have such a privilege. We even have examples of the early fathers desiring this.

But for me- I make a distinction between being martyr'd for Christ and just standing and watching a crazed madman or woman plow down innocent children while at school. If I was there and armed I would do whatever I could to stop him and save lives. That is the only reason to be armed in the first place.
Sometimes a cop arrives before the carnage is over- but why would I not intervene to stop it sooner, if able? Every police officer I have spoken to- says that they WANT law abiding citizens armed. A good man with a gun is not a threat to anyone.
Some feel differently. I understand.
In other countries other than the USA I understand your minds have been molded by government taking away your right to defend. But nowhere in the scriptures do I see us being told not to do the right thing. I do put the lives of countless others as more important than the one who is trying to take their lives. It is evil. He needs to be stopped.
Even if only shot in his trigger arm or legs- then he can face trial and life in prison. If a cop shoots- trust me, he wont survive. The sword is not in vain. To say it's only "allowed" if you're a cop or whatever- is an error in my opinion because cops don't agree- they give their authorization to law abiding because they see the need for help. WHY would we just stand and watch or hide in the closet instead of protecting the innocent? That's what a coward does- and we know where cowards end up.
They are not called until people are dead and simply can not arrive early enough.

I don't know what a Christian nation looks like because the USA no longer is one. So yes, Americans do have different views on that. It may have been started by Christians but we have strayed very far. Our laws are no longer Christian. We sanction killing babies, and allow gay marriage etc.
We do have freedom to practice our religion but that became a double edged sword once we became populated with Muslims and Buddists etc because we must also give them those freedoms. Those responsible for populating us with other faiths KNEW this. It was purposeful. Prez O initiated much of it. Now, we are seeing Muslims elected to high offices and we ought to be aware of the intent behind the Muslim faith to take us over. Instead, we were labeled intolerant racists or white supremacists when we called out that danger.
So we attempt to live peacefully with them and only time will tell how well that goes. We should not rise up against them in war if they become more powerful in this country. All we can do is vote.

But a scenario of mass carnage that has nothing to do with faith is something that I will aid the police if I am able. I do not feel convicted that there is any wrong in that. I see it as having mercy on the innocent.
What good is there if we all just stand there and die and the police show up to a school of death with a mass murderer who has fled or kills a cop? We should help if we can. There is no "revenge" there nor is there hatred, but a sense of duty to your fellow man. It is not in vain.
We are commanded to love our neighbor- to treat them as we want to be treated- absolutely! The question that leaves is how do I choose who to love in that scenario? Is it loving to stand and watch people being slaughtered?- is it right to save a life or destroy it? Am I loving someone by allowing him to mass murder others? Or is it loving to spare the innocent? I can't see this another way. It's not a question to me which is right before God.
God gives us each other to help one another. Not to hold to His law improperly when it is causing harm and death. What is more holy?
That is what Jesus taught against. Holding to no work on the Sabbath law as if it meant not helping another in danger- even an ox.

Thank you for that thoughtful post. I agree, and I would not want anybody to think that my posts here mean that I think anybody should just sit by and let mass murderers massacre school children. (I don't agree that the government here has taken away the right to defend, though. Because of the strict gun control laws here, very few people even own guns, let alone use guns for illegal purposes.) I wrote my posts assuming that the thread was concerned with Christians retaliating against those who persecute them for being Christians. Thanks again.

 

[Wrangler]

In view of clear statements about loving our enemies and doing good to those who hate us, plus the fact that we don't read in the bible of Christians attacking with swords or other physical weapons those who opposed them, I would say that a command is needed, if in fact Christians are intended by Jesus Christ to retaliate physically.

I would say we have enough given where there is freedom, there is the spirit of the Lord.

Freedom means being able to do all that is not prohibited. Slavery is doing only that which is explicitly allowed. Having a sword is not merely allowed but commanded. And the reason is obvious.

 

[David Lamb]

I would say we have enough given where there is freedom, there is the spirit of the Lord.

Freedom means being able to do all that is not prohibited. Slavery is doing only that which is explicitly allowed. Having a sword is not merely allowed but commanded. And the reason is obvious.

It was commanded to the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane. But the context was not that they should use those two swords they had in an attempt to protect themselves and Jesus from the Roman soldiers and those sent by the high priest. We only have to consider the context:

(Mat 26:51) And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
(Mat 26:52) But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
(Mat 26:53) Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
(Mat 26:54) How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

Peter (for John's gospel tells us it was him) obviously thought that Jesus meant that they were to defend themselves with the two swords, but Jesus's words in the verses I have just quoted show that that was not so.

 

[Lambano]

This is an important portrayal of a masculine Jesus standing his ground using violence to force others to yield, who is our model to follow.

An interesting side road we could go down - the association of masculinity with violence.

Was Jesus being effeminate when He allowed Himself to be captured and tortured to death?

 

[Wrangler]

An interesting side road we could go down - the association of masculinity with violence.

Was Jesus being effeminate when He allowed Himself to be captured and tortured to death?

Because we have thoroughly feminized Jesus today, the question has to be answered in the context that Jesus is the ultimate example of masculinity other than God the Father.

It’s highly masculine to submit to authority as Jesus did with his Father’s will be done. In this context, it’s hard to imagine a more masculine response than allowing capture and crucifixion. Adding to this masculine ethos is Christ’s amazing capacity to be silent: under questioning by Pilate and the torture, itself.

Regarding the feminization of Jesus there’s a painting of him as an African women.

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[NayborBear]

It was commanded to the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane. But the context was not that they should use those two swords they had in an attempt to protect themselves and Jesus from the Roman soldiers and those sent by the high priest. We only have to consider the context:

(Mat 26:51) And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
(Mat 26:52) But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
(Mat 26:53) Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
(Mat 26:54) How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

Peter (for John's gospel tells us it was him) obviously thought that Jesus meant that they were to defend themselves with the two swords, but Jesus's words i the verses I have just quoted show that that was not so.

That verse? Mat 26:54 you posted? Should have answered your concerns about "being armed!"
Prophecy was? At THAT time? Being FULFILLED!
Peter DIDN'T know!
Jesus? However DID!
Now? How in "Heaven's Name" verse 52 became the "GLOBAL ANTHEM" for "Pacifistic Christians EVERYWHERE?"
Is merely a "testament and witness" of how the term/emotion/feeling/s of "LOVE" has been (how can I say) "thrown into the blender" of misguided interpretation, then vexated by seduction, and watered down for itchy ears, REDEFINED to the POINT where the emotion of "RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION", of "ANY KIND collectively!" of Christ's Church is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN!
Well? That may be a little TOO harsh though. Maybe EXTREMELY FROWNED upon?
At LEAST THAT "aspect" of Love anyway!
To which? The "Governments" of most democratic nations with "Judaeo/Christian Values" were ALL TOO HAPPY in (how can I say) "Relinquishing or RELIEVING Christ's Church" from what SHOULD have been "outward EXPRESSIONS" of Righteous Indignation, ACCORDING TO "Judaeo/Christian Values and Morals, and Justice" to THEIR SECULAR definitions of how, when and where THEIR form of "justice (UNrighteous Indignation)" is to be outwardly "MISAPPLIED!
Which brings to mind that old old Biblical record, of How GOD "yielded" to the People's cries of DEMANDING a "Man King" to rule over them when Samuel brought this before HIM!
DESPITE the "Warnings" from GOD describing just what was going to happen with this decision!
Just goes to show ya? No matter how much things CHANGE?
People? DON'T!
Sad! Ain't it?

 

[Gray_Joy]

I'm not convinced that He whipped the men as well. It's not clear. I will just leave that alone.
I do know that there are some Christians who see Jesus as just happy & peaceful but when He returns they'll be surprised at the result-

MATTHEW 13:49-50​

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9​

ROMANS 2:6-8​

That almost makes me wonder if he was hired to do just that..

It's a good question.

I see. THAT makes me wonder all the more who hired him..

I can't imagine being armed and hiding while hearing gunshots and children screaming in horror.

May God continue to comfort all who grieve.