I don't identify as a "Christian"

[Matthias]

Do you mean something like do I consider the Bible to be "The Word of God"?

Yes.

Do you me like an actual place?

Yes.

I will be living and in that serving The Father in whatever capacity that requires.

Who is “The Father” you are referring to? In the Bible he is Jesus’ God and my God (John 20:17). That’s binding for me but it isn’t for you.

How long is a piece of string Matthias.

What I’m interested in learning is how long you know your string to be.

If there a point to these questions please share that with me.

I’m just trying to get to know you better.

 

[talons]

To clarify my position.

• I have a relationship with my Father (The Father.)

Welcome to the forum @Eternal Entity .

Yes , surely we do if we have taken Jesus as our savior .

I walked the path of The Son to gain that relationship.

Let me see if I understand you correctly .
Christ's walk was life , death on the cross and resurrection . Would you say you are born again , the old man is dead ?

I do not call myself a Christian. A couple of reasons for this is because Jesus was never recorded as using that label for his followers and because the religion built around his name is acknowledged by me to have always been unnecessary to my beginning and developing relationship with my Father (The Father.)

Instead of Christian it could be , I am a person of the Way , I am a follower of Jesus , but we must be born again in any case . The part I bolded and enlarged has raised some questions from me .

Are you Jewish ?

That part I bolded is the eye blinking moment for me in what you have said because without the Christian religion how would you ever find out about your savior Jesus Christ ?

I would ask you who started this religion built around His name ?

 

[Angelina]

Perhaps. Or even, most likely?

That is interesting and may have a bearing on differencials.

Thank you for explaining how you believe things to be.
In the context you offer re that belief, I would say that Jesus is the mediator in the sense that he is the one who introduces the follower of the Son to The Father and in doing so "job done".
That is the short succinct reply. The map from one point to the other is a whole book of stories.
May your walk be toward that end.

In Love

Thank you, @Eternal Entity. That does help me understand your position more clearly.

If I've understood you correctly, you see Jesus as a mediator in the sense that he introduces the follower to the Father, and once that relationship is established, the purpose of the mediation has been fulfilled.

The reason I find that interesting is that it differs from how I understand Christ's role. As I read Scripture, Christ is not only the one who brings us to the Father but also the one who continually intercedes for us and remains our mediator.
So perhaps one of the "differentials," as you have mentioned, is not whether Jesus mediates but whether his mediation is something completed at introduction or something ongoing.

Would that be a fair discription/distinction?

And when you speak of your relationship with the Father, do you see that relationship as being grounded in Christ's ongoing work or mainly in the relationship itself once established?

I'm interested in understanding the map you mentioned, because it seems we're using some of the same words but perhaps drawing different routes between them.

Your buddy
Angie!

 

[Eternal Entity]

Thank you, @Eternal Entity. That does help me understand your position more clearly.

If I've understood you correctly, you see Jesus as a mediator in the sense that he introduces the follower to the Father, and once that relationship is established, the purpose of the mediation has been fulfilled.

The reason I find that interesting is that it differs from how I understand Christ's role. As I read Scripture, Christ is not only the one who brings us to the Father but also the one who continually intercedes for us and remains our mediator.
So perhaps one of the "differentials," as you have mentioned, is not whether Jesus mediates but whether his mediation is something completed at introduction or something ongoing.

Would that be a fair discription/distinction?

Yes Angie. Would that distinction tell you that I am not a Christian? Or perhaps it might tell you that I am not a Christian in the way that you are?

And when you speak of your relationship with the Father, do you see that relationship as being grounded in Christ's ongoing work or mainly in the relationship itself once established?

What do you think Christs ongoing work is?

I'm interested in understanding the map you mentioned, because it seems we're using some of the same words but perhaps drawing different routes between them.

You appear to be perplexed about that? Do you think all paths are or should be the same?

Your buddy
Angie!

In Love
Eternal Entity!
:)

 

[Angelina]

Yes Angie. Would that distinction tell you that I am not a Christian? Or perhaps it might tell you that I am not a Christian in the way that you are?

What do you think Christs ongoing work is?

You appear to be perplexed about that? Do you think all paths are or should be the same?

In Love
Eternal Entity!
:)

Hi @Eternal Entity, Good questions.

No, I don't think that distinction alone tells me whether you are or are not a Christian. It tells me that we understand Christ's mediating role differently, but I wouldn't reduce a person to a single theological point.

As for Christ's ongoing work, I understand Him as continuing to intercede for his people and to remain our mediator before the Father. I also understand the Christian life as something lived through the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sent to dwell within believers and lead them into truth.

Regarding the paths question, I would say that everyone's journey can be very different. Our experiences, questions, and testimonies vary greatly.

Where I would differ is that I don't believe differing journeys necessarily imply differing routes to the Father. From my understanding, the believer's relationship with the Father is through the Son and lived in communion with God by the Holy Spirit.

So my interest is not whether our stories look the same, but whether we mean the same thing when we speak of the Father, the Son, and the relationship between them.

With love and respect.
Angelina

 

[rockytopva]

My testimony is similar to George Clark Rankin in which I was first introduced to a lifeless Christianity...

Salvation Experienced True Methodist

George Clark Ranking was born in 1849 in East Tennessee and became a preacher for the Methodist Episcopal Church, South (which would later form into the UMC). Mr. Rankin would move and spend the rest of his years in Dallas, Texas. A good life! Here are some excerpts from his book...

www.christianityboard.com

Like GC Rankin, after a time in quality revival the good Spirit finally came through.... I was born in North Carolina on a Marine Corp base and traveled the US. As a pre-teen we moved to the North where I was brought up in a cold, dull, dry, Protestant church and considered myself an Agnostic Atheist, but went to church for fear of eternity. I would look out at the winter Michigan tundra and wonder what was more dead and lifeless... The winter scenery out the windows or the church I was in. The At seventeen I moved here to Virginia staying at my grandmother's, and attending the local Pentecostal Holiness church. My old Pentecostal Holiness pastor was an old evangelist turned pastor. He really knew how to get wonderful evangelist for revival. One summer day as a teenager I was reading Nikki Cruze's Run Baby Run after a wonderful revival and I heard a voice speaking to the heart..."Put the book down" Not realizing what was happening I continued to read. I was sleeping next to an open outside door and the kady-dids were singing their praises to God very loudly. The voice spoke again... "Put the book down!" I then put the book down and heard the voice speak yet again... "Where is all the strife, hatred, and bad feelings?" I examined the heart to find nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself, "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!"

Without the Good Spirit of God I would have remained an atheist.

 

[Riven]

Greetings Reader.

I joined this forum today. In the membership form I was asked how I identify religiously and was given a list of options, and chose the one which most closely mirrored my position - that being "Agnostic".

What I think is true:

I exist within a created thing.
I have many good reasons why I think this is true.

Since I think this is true, that would make me a "Theist" - because IF I think I exist within a created thing, THEN this implies a Creator/Creators.
Perhaps in that context, I might be an Agnostic Theist.
I do not self identify as being a "Christian" for many reasons. I have no problem with others who self identify as being Christian, for whatever reasons they chose to do so.
Truely, the "self identification" doesn't mean much to me, but I understand it means something to others, so that they may be able to better pinpoint who I am in relation to who they believe they are. Such is the nature of human interactions on that level.
To flip that, others who self identify as being "Christians" when they interact with me, the label doesn't really mean a lot to me in any significant way. This is because there are so many "types" of Christians, and many of those do not agree with one another most of the time and that is just one of the reasons why I do not self identify as being "Christian".
Are there any others hereabouts think in a similar way about this?

Peace.
EE

Hello, @Eternal Entity .

I'm curious. Why do you think the universe was created?

 

[Eternal Entity]

I’m just trying to get to know you better.

I must say I had a wee chuckle about that Matthias.
The irony being that you are a long standing member of this message board

Well-Known Member​

Joined May 4, 2022
You have made 32,402 posts in that time and have received 24,224 likes yet in this very thread there are other long standing members who were not aware of your position on things - who did not "know" you.

What do you think was the reason for that and do you think that anyone really can truly know anyone else and do you think your questions and the way you ask them are really going to help you to know me?

 

[Eternal Entity]

Hi @Eternal Entity, Good questions.

No, I don't think that distinction alone tells me whether you are or are not a Christian. It tells me that we understand Christ's mediating role differently, but I wouldn't reduce a person to a single theological point.

As for Christ's ongoing work, I understand Him as continuing to intercede for his people and to remain our mediator before the Father. I also understand the Christian life as something lived through the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sent to dwell within believers and lead them into truth.

So, if I understand you here, you do not have a direct relationship with The Father, but an indirect one through The Son?
If that is the case, then yes, we have a different relationship with The Father. THat is not a problem through my understanding of the dynamics involved, and may be the key reason why I am not a Christian, if indeed being a Christian has to do with the one dynamic and not the other.

Regarding the paths question, I would say that everyone's journey can be very different. Our experiences, questions, and testimonies vary greatly.

Agreed. To underline that observation, there is not a thing in this universe exactly the same as any other.

Where I would differ is that I don't believe differing journeys necessarily imply differing routes to the Father. From my understanding, the believer's relationship with the Father is through the Son and lived in communion with God by the Holy Spirit.

From my understanding, while this is relevant, I think of it in terms of "those who are suckling the milk" and "those who are eating the meat" which is reflective of the observation that individuals experiencing the human experience are able to choose where on the spectrum they feel most comfortable in being.

So my interest is not whether our stories look the same, but whether we mean the same thing when we speak of the Father, the Son, and the relationship between them.

What do you think about that and why...

With love and respect.
Angelina

In Love
Eternal Entity.

:)

 

[Eternal Entity]

My testimony is similar to George Clark Rankin in which I was first introduced to a lifeless Christianity...

Salvation Experienced True Methodist

George Clark Ranking was born in 1849 in East Tennessee and became a preacher for the Methodist Episcopal Church, South (which would later form into the UMC). Mr. Rankin would move and spend the rest of his years in Dallas, Texas. A good life! Here are some excerpts from his book...

www.christianityboard.com

Like GC Rankin, after a time in quality revival the good Spirit finally came through.... I was born in North Carolina on a Marine Corp base and traveled the US. As a pre-teen we moved to the North where I was brought up in a cold, dull, dry, Protestant church and considered myself an Agnostic Atheist, but went to church for fear of eternity. I would look out at the winter Michigan tundra and wonder what was more dead and lifeless... The winter scenery out the windows or the church I was in. The At seventeen I moved here to Virginia staying at my grandmother's, and attending the local Pentecostal Holiness church. My old Pentecostal Holiness pastor was an old evangelist turned pastor. He really knew how to get wonderful evangelist for revival. One summer day as a teenager I was reading Nikki Cruze's Run Baby Run after a wonderful revival and I heard a voice speaking to the heart..."Put the book down" Not realizing what was happening I continued to read. I was sleeping next to an open outside door and the kady-dids were singing their praises to God very loudly. The voice spoke again... "Put the book down!" I then put the book down and heard the voice speak yet again... "Where is all the strife, hatred, and bad feelings?" I examined the heart to find nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself, "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!"

Without the Good Spirit of God I would have remained an atheist.

Thank you

rockytopva​

for your short witness.
Interestingly, it reminded me of my own reading of that book - in my early-mid teens. The first 12 years of my life I experienced life in what is regarded as NZ's worst suburb - I spent most of my time running fast, talking fast or taking a beating. I was not a fighter.
Nicky was - and did not hold back when it came to inflicting damage on others with the knife.

I admit that the first part of his story influenced me - perhaps even impressed me. When I was moved to stay with my Uncle (mum's/mom's brother) a long way from where I was brought up, I had the same thing to deal with - for different reasons - but being bullied anyway. I drew on Nicky's witness - (before he was exposed to David) and without going into details I decided to use a compass (those used for technical drawing) to deal with a bully by stabbing him with it a few times.
The results were that I learned the anger and such response did not fix anything and I paid for my transgression in the playfield by taking yet another beating.
I have never been an atheist. I have been a Cultural Christian, went through the Christian dynamic and eventually moved on. Often the Church (generally speaking) teaches there is only "either or" One is either a believer or an atheist.

I am not religious, and certainly am not an atheist.

 

[Angelina]

So, if I understand you here, you do not have a direct relationship with The Father, but an indirect one through The Son?
If that is the case, then yes, we have a different relationship with The Father. THat is not a problem through my understanding of the dynamics involved, and may be the key reason why I am not a Christian, if indeed being a Christian has to do with the one dynamic and not the other.

Agreed. To underline that observation, there is not a thing in this universe exactly the same as any other.

From my understanding, while this is relevant, I think of it in terms of "those who are suckling the milk" and "those who are eating the meat" which is reflective of the observation that individuals experiencing the human experience are able to choose where on the spectrum they feel most comfortable in being.

What do you think about that and why

Hmm... @Eternal Entity, I think there's a possible gap in the way you’re building your conclusion.
You start with "If the universe is created, that implies a Creator" and then move into “agnostic theism” as a reasonable label. That part of the reasoning is coherent on a philosophical level. The issue comes after that, because you then treat “Creator” as if it can remain an abstract conclusion without necessarily engaging with revelation or identity.

That’s where your position becomes questionable because it assumes that you can affirm causation while remaining neutral to what that cause actually is or what it has said about itself.

If there is a Creator in the stronger sense you’re implying, then the question isn’t just "does one exist?” but “has this Creator acted, spoken, or revealed Himself?” At that point, pure agnosticism starts to lose coherence, because neutrality about identity becomes harder to maintain once revelation is in view.

On your other point, about not calling yourself Christian, I actually think you’re right that labels can be inconsistent across people. But the Christian claim itself isn’t primarily a label issue; it’s a claim about Christ’s identity and authority. So avoiding the term doesn’t really sidestep the underlying question; it just postpones it.

Also, I noticed in your reply to others you tend to step back from being “known” or defined by what people think they understand about you. I get that instinct. But philosophically, it also means you’re keeping yourself protected from conclusions that your own reasoning might already be pointing toward.

So I’d ask you directly: if the Creator is not just inferred but real, what would actually stop him from being knowable rather than only inferred?

Because at that point, “agnostic theism” stops being a final position and becomes an unfinished one. I will catch up with you tomorrow, my friend. - AngelN a

 

[rockytopva]

Thank you

rockytopva​

for your short witness.
Interestingly, it reminded me of my own reading of that book - in my early-mid teens. The first 12 years of my life I experienced life in what is regarded as NZ's worst suburb - I spent most of my time running fast, talking fast or taking a beating. I was not a fighter.
Nicky was - and did not hold back when it came to inflicting damage on others with the knife.

I admit that the first part of his story influenced me - perhaps even impressed me. When I was moved to stay with my Uncle (mum's/mom's brother) a long way from where I was brought up, I had the same thing to deal with - for different reasons - but being bullied anyway. I drew on Nicky's witness - (before he was exposed to David) and without going into details I decided to use a compass (those used for technical drawing) to deal with a bully by stabbing him with it a few times.
The results were that I learned the anger and such response did not fix anything and I paid for my transgression in the playfield by taking yet another beating.
I have never been an atheist. I have been a Cultural Christian, went through the Christian dynamic and eventually moved on. Often the Church (generally speaking) teaches there is only "either or" One is either a believer or an atheist.

I am not religious, and certainly am not an atheist.

After church one day Robert Sheffey's soul felt full and the morning sermon had opened his eyes to something. The minister had preached long and eloquently. His theme was that most of mankind did not respond to the call of God because they did not feel His lovingkindness." - Jess Carr's Saint of the Wilderness (the calling of RS Sheffey)

"His theme was that most of mankind did not respond to the call of God because they did not feel His lovingkindness." I have got to believe that feeling some kind of good spirit is an absolute necessity. We have simply got to believe that God is on our side.