If sealed with the HS, how does one become UNsealed ?

[GodsGrace]

@PeterAndroz

2 of 3

John 6:28-29 ESV / 204 helpful votes​

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Titus 2:14 ESV / 177 helpful votes​

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

James 4:17 ESV / 174 helpful votes​

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 ESV / 169 helpful votes​

As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Romans 2:6-10 ESV / 162 helpful votes​

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

1 Corinthians 16:14 ESV / 160 helpful votes​

Let all that you do be done in love.

Hebrews 6:10 ESV / 159 helpful votes​

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.

2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV / 154 helpful votes​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Titus 1:16 ESV / 153 helpful votes​

They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 152 helpful votes​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

2 Timothy 3:17 ESV / 142 helpful votes​

That the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Proverbs 3:27-28 ESV / 139 helpful votes​

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.

Titus 3:8 ESV / 137 helpful votes​

The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Hebrews 10:24 ESV / 132 helpful votes​

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Titus 2:7 ESV / 128 helpful votes​

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

John 14:15 ESV / 118 helpful votes​

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 Corinthians 15:58 ESV / 115 helpful votes​

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Ephesians 2:8 ESV / 112 helpful votes​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV / 111 helpful votes​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:1 ESV / 97 helpful votes​

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Psalm 37:3 ESV / 96 helpful votes​

Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness.

Matthew 25:31-46 ESV / 90 helpful votes​

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...

​

 

[GodsGrace]

@PeterAndroz

3 of 3

James 3:13 ESV / 88 helpful votes​

Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

Colossians 3:23 ESV / 88 helpful votes​

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

John 3:16 ESV / 88 helpful votes​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

James 2:14-26 ESV / 83 helpful votes​

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ...

2 Corinthians 9:8 ESV / 83 helpful votes​

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

Genesis 2:15 ESV / 80 helpful votes​

The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

Psalm 90:17 ESV / 77 helpful votes​

Let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us, and establish the work of our hands upon us; yes, establish the work of our hands!

Galatians 2:16 ESV / 76 helpful votes​

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Philippians 2:13 ESV / 75 helpful votes​

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Romans 3:28 ESV / 75 helpful votes​

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Acts 10:38 ESV / 74 helpful votes​

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Proverbs 14:23 ESV / 73 helpful votes​

In all toil there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty.

Titus 3:14 ESV / 72 helpful votes​

And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

Romans 12:1 ESV / 69 helpful votes​

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

​

source: Open bible


and there are even MORE!!

So, now what do we do??

 

[GodsGrace]

Impossible to become unsealed as your presented verses in Ephesians clearly shows

Fact is, once saved always saved is a biblical reality, and the two verses silences any disagreement

Truth
Please show how OSAS is biblical.
Please show how it is not a heretical teaching.

Please show, with documentation, that it was taught in the church from the beginning.

The early church,,,you know right after the Apostles died and left others with what they knew so it could be passed on.

OSAS was NEVER taught by Jesus, the writers of the NT
or anyone that they taught.

Unless you could prove this, of course.

Gnostics need not apply.
Of course, gnostics taught that a person could sin all he wanted to and still be saved
because
sin is in the flesh
and that does not count for God.

Sounds like some Christians today.

 

[GodsGrace]

My work here is finished. Goodbye, Peter.

It does get tiring.

We all have our limit.
I take off every now and then to regroup.

 

[GodsGrace]

Col 1:22-23
Since belief is THE requirement to be Eph 1:13, 4:30 SEALED then I too believe that belief must be ongoing
I don't see it but some claim that 2 Tim 2:13 "cannot deny himself" teaches otherwise

God cannot deny Himself means God will keep HIS promises.
He cannot deny Himself.

Let's take a close look:

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.


Yes sir.
Belief must be ongoing.

Under careful scrutiny, we discover that, as ususal, some incorrectly understand 2 Timothy thus creating a conflict between verse 12 and verse 13.

Verse 12 states that IF we DENY HIM, He will deny us.

Verse 13 states that God will remain faithful....
but to whom?
A person that returns to a life of sin?
A person that willfully abandons the faith?

No.
God remains faithful to HIMSELF.

..
ACTIONS though are not a condition to be Eph 1:13, 4:30 SEALED & is confirmed by the :-
SAME PERSON who wrote Col 1:22-23
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The above are very good verses...
unfortunately, some do not care to understand them.

But I've already addressed your carpet bombing verses.

Perhaps you'd like to pluck out one or two and we could discuss?

And are you aware of the fact that
BELIEVE,,,that greek word that is used in the NT....

has contained within it the idea of OBEDIENCE.

Believing in Jesus cannot be separated from obeying Jesus.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Not possible.

Now that is one INTELLIGENT reply.

Not quite sure what to do with it.

Perhaps you'd care to expound?

Do you not believe the NT?

 

[GodsGrace]

"falling away"
By ACTIONS or no longer trusting the death/burial/resurrection of Christ ?

If no longer TRUSTING the DBR that again confirms that ongoing faith/belief/trust is THE requirement to be Eph 4:30 sealed unto redemption

If "falling away" by ACTIONS yet still trusts the DBR, then where are the verses that teach UNsealed c/- ACTIONS ?

Are you SERIOUSLY implying that one could

believe in the DBR of Jesus (see I'm a quick learner)

and

NOT ACT on the words of Him that died, was buried and resurrected for you?

Do you understand that to ACT on the WORDS OF JESUS....
means to obey Him?

if you do not obey Jesus....
having a mental belief that He DBR for you is IRRELEVANT.

Even the demons believe your DBR formula.

Do you know what the difference is?

Demons don't OBEY Jesus.

YOU are required to.

NO OBEDIENCE -------> NO BELIEF
NO BELIEF---------> NO SALVATION

 

[Lambano]

Col 1:22-23
Since belief is THE requirement to be Eph 1:13, 4:30 SEALED then I too believe that belief must be ongoing.

Remember, word πίστει here and elsewhere in Paul's writings means more than "belief".

II. fidelity, faithfulness

1. the character of one who can be relied on

 

[mailmandan]

Hey Doc, your post does not show who you were responding to.
OT has incidences where the HS was removed/taken from believers due to their 'actions'
...
As of Eph 4:30 SEALED UNTO REDEMPTION, I find no instances of a believer becoming UNsealed.
Is there any that you can list ?

Unsealed. Now there is a difference between the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament in regard to "indwelling." The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5) When we believe the gospel/place our faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for salvation, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance.” (Ephesians 1:14)

In contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks.

So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for specific tasks and not to permanently seal them with the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unsealed. Now there is a difference between the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament in regard to "indwelling." The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5) When we believe the gospel/place our faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for salvation, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance.” (Ephesians 1:14)

In contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks.

So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for specific tasks and not to permanently seal them with the Holy Spirit.

The indwelling is not permanent mailmandan.

Have you read the ENTIRE NT or just the parts you particularly enjoy?

I think you've missed some parts there.

For instance...Jesus taught that unfruitful BELIEVERS could be cut off.

One part you missed.

I'll print it out for you so you could study it a little bit:

John 15:1-2
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


If you care to debate,,,
you'lll be debating with Jesus,,,
not with me.

I'd take the time to read it and understand it instead.

Jesus is teaching that a BELIEVER....
someone IN HIM

will be TAKEN AWAY
because there is no fruit.

And what happens to branches that are taken away?
The reply is just a few verses down:



John 15:6
. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


§The branches will be gathered and burned.
Sounds serious.

You might also remember the time Jesus said that a fig tree that was not producing would be given one more year and then it would be cut down UNLESS it produced fruit.
Sounds serious.


Luke 13:6-9
6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.

7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’

8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;

9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”


Jesus said the tree is just taking up the ground for NO REASON.
It is USELESS.


Just like James taught....


James 2:20
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


It's wonderful how the NT flows in perfect agreement with itself !

 

[mailmandan]

The indwelling is not permanent mailmandan.

Having believed the gospel, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory - is permanent. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Have you read the ENTIRE NT or just the parts you particularly enjoy?

I could ask you the same question.

I think you've missed some parts there.

For instance...Jesus taught that unfruitful BELIEVERS could be cut off.

One part you missed.

I'll print it out for you so you could study it a little bit:

John 15:1-2
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Unfruitful believer is an oxymoron. Faith without works is dead, (James 2:20) remember? You continue to assume "in me" (in the vine) must mean saving union, yet outward attachment to Christ is not inward life. Judas was outwardly attached to Christ, yet Jesus said, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70) He also said, “You are clean, but not all of you." (John 13:10). Judas was connected outwardly but never clean inwardly. That is the point that you keep missing.

John 15 does not teach that born-again believers lose salvation. That would make Jesus contradict Himself. Jesus already said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:39-40) and “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish or be snatched from my hand. (John 10:27-28). If they perish, it was not eternal life. A fruitless branch shows outward connection without inward life. That is why it is taken away. Real branches bear fruit because life is in them. False professors may appear attached for a season, but bearing no fruit exposes no life. So, the Father removes fruitless professors. Christ does not lose His sheep. John 15 cannot be used to negate John 6 and 10.

If you care to debate,,,
you'lll be debating with Jesus,,,
not with me.

I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You need to take into consideration EVERYTHING that Jesus said and not merely your pet verses.

I'd take the time to read it and understand it instead.

Jesus is teaching that a BELIEVER....
someone IN HIM

You ASSUME it's a BELIEVER because the text says IN HIM. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

will be TAKEN AWAY
because there is no fruit.

Faith without works is dead. The branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

And what happens to branches that are taken away?
The reply is just a few verses down:

John 15:6
. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

§The branches will be gathered and burned.
Sounds serious.

It is serious for pseudo-Christians/make believers. Just ask Judas Iscariot.

You might also remember the time Jesus said that a fig tree that was not producing would be given one more year and then it would be cut down UNLESS it produced fruit.
Sounds serious.

Luke 13:6-9
6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.

7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’

8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;

9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Jesus said the tree is just taking up the ground for NO REASON.
It is USELESS.

In the parable of the (barren) Fig Tree (Luke 13:6-9), the three years represent the duration of Jesus' public ministry. During this period, He preached the message of repentance to the nation of Israel, yet the religious leaders largely failed to produce the "fruit" of repentance and faith. The fig tree symbolizes the nation of Israel. This has nothing to do with born again Christians losing salvation.

Just like James taught....

James 2:20
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

It's wonderful how the NT flows in perfect agreement with itself !

It's wonderful when you read the TOTALITY of scripture and not merely your pet verses. James is clear when taken in context.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[GodsGrace]

Having believed the gospel, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory - is permanent. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

I could ask you the same question.

Unfruitful believer is an oxymoron. Faith without works is dead, (James 2:20) remember? You continue to assume "in me" (in the vine) must mean saving union, yet outward attachment to Christ is not inward life. Judas was outwardly attached to Christ, yet Jesus said, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70) He also said, “You are clean, but not all of you." (John 13:10). Judas was connected outwardly but never clean inwardly. That is the point that you keep missing.

John 15 does not teach that born-again believers lose salvation. That would make Jesus contradict Himself. Jesus already said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:39-40) and “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish or be snatched from my hand. (John 10:27-28). If they perish, it was not eternal life. A fruitless branch shows outward connection without inward life. That is why it is taken away. Real branches bear fruit because life is in them. False professors may appear attached for a season, but bearing no fruit exposes no life. So, the Father removes fruitless professors. Christ does not lose His sheep. John 15 cannot be used to negate John 6 and 10.

I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You need to take into consideration EVERYTHING that Jesus said and not merely your pet verses.

You ASSUME it's a BELIEVER because the text says IN HIM. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Faith without works is dead. The branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

It is serious for pseudo-Christians/make believers. Just ask Judas Iscariot.

In the parable of the (barren) Fig Tree (Luke 13:6-9), the three years represent the duration of Jesus' public ministry. During this period, He preached the message of repentance to the nation of Israel, yet the religious leaders largely failed to produce the "fruit" of repentance and faith. The fig tree symbolizes the nation of Israel. This has nothing to do with born again Christians losing salvation.

It's wonderful when you read the TOTALITY of scripture and not merely your pet verses. James is clear when taken in context.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Yadda yadda.
You should know me enough by now to realize I really do not feel like debating this.

You are teaching heresy.
You are not teaching what Jesus taught.

You're making excuses for those that take their salvation lightly.

It's known as cheap grace.

we cheapen the grace of God by not following HIS teachings.

Easy Bellievism...

we want to believe that there is no cost to being Christian
when Jesus said that there is and to make sure we won't be turning back.

You know the verse.

You just don't like it.

Find out what is meant by being SEALED.

And what a great conflict if YOU believe one cannot be UNSEALED (what a dumb expression)
and yet Jesus and Paul taught that one COULD BE UNSEALED.

What do we do now mailmandan?


And you know how I feel about your paragraphs about explaining away one or two verses.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you SERIOUSLY implying that one could

believe in the DBR of Jesus (see I'm a quick learner)

It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the DBR of Jesus "happened." Even the demons believe that. Yet it's another thing to actually TRUST in the DBR of Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That is what it means to BELIEVE the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That is believing in our HEART that God has raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:10) and not merely in our head.

and

NOT ACT on the words of Him that died, was buried and resurrected for you?

Do you understand that to ACT on the WORDS OF JESUS....
means to obey Him?

if you do not obey Jesus....
having a mental belief that He DBR for you is IRRELEVANT.

Obedience follows believing in the DBR of Jesus and having been saved.

Even the demons believe your DBR formula.

Do you know what the difference is?

Demons believe in their heart but not in their heart.

Demons don't OBEY Jesus.

Demons don't OBEY Jesus because demons reject Jesus. The faith/trust/reliance of a believer is in Jesus for salvation. In regard to demons, their trust and reliance are in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

YOU are required to.

NO OBEDIENCE -------> NO BELIEF
NO BELIEF---------> NO SALVATION

Here you go again conflating belief and obedience/works which culminates in salvation by faith AND WORKS. Cart before the horse.

 

[Lambano]

By ACTIONS or no longer trusting the death/burial/resurrection of Christ ?

It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the DBR of Jesus "happened." Even the demons believe that. Yet it's another thing to actually TRUST in the DBR of Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

What I have found over the years is that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ are only reasons WHY we should place our trust in Jesus Christ the PERSON.

 

[Truth7t7]

You did not reply to my post giving you an example of some becoming UNSEALED.

Here it is:

2 Peter 2:20-23
. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

They were never sealed by the Holy Spirit

 

[mailmandan]

You should know me enough by now to realize I really do not feel like debating this.

You are teaching heresy.
You are not teaching what Jesus taught.

That is a serious accusation which would make me a heretic who is not saved. Is that what you believe? I agree with what Jesus taught. Heresy would be teaching a license to sin/license for immorality which is NOT what I am teaching. Salvation by works/works righteousness is also heresy.

You're making excuses for those that take their salvation lightly.

What excuses did I make?

It's known as cheap grace.

we cheapen the grace of God by not following HIS teachings.

Easy Bellievism...

There is nothing cheap about the gospel of grace. Jesus paid a heavy price to purchase our salvation. Do you believe that (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4 etc..) is too easy? Would you prefer hard believeism?

we want to believe that there is no cost to being Christian
when Jesus said that there is and to make sure we won't be turning back.

You know the verse.

You just don't like it.

Even though we receive the gift of eternal life through faith, like it or not, living the Christian life does come at a cost. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. Pseudo Christians turn back and walk with Jesus no more when they get offended by the words of Jesus and when the going gets tough.

Find out what is meant by being SEALED.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

What the Bible says about Arrabon

And what a great conflict if YOU believe one cannot be UNSEALED (what a dumb expression)
and yet Jesus and Paul taught that one COULD BE UNSEALED.

That is your eisegesis. Show me the word UNSEALED in Scripture.

What do we do now mailmandan?


And you know how I feel about your paragraphs about explaining away one or two verses.

View attachment 85732

I guess we just continue to disagree. I don't explain away verses. I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. *Hermeneutics.

 

[mailmandan]

They were never sealed by the Holy Spirit

Amen! In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention these dogs and pigs being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption is deeper than pollutions on the outside. It is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. *Judas Iscariot is a good example.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are teaching heresy.

Your comment represents your self looking into a mirror of scriptural truth, OSAS Is a biblical reality

You've been provided scripture that clearly shows that when a believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit it's up to the day of redemption, they're in the Fathers hand, "Eternal Security"!

Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30, John 10:26-30

(Eternal Security)

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:26-30KJV
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amen! In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention these dogs and pigs being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption is deeper than pollutions on the outside. It is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. *Judas Iscariot is a good example.

Many are "Called" filling the pews in the buildings they call a church, only the "Chosen" are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption

Matthew 22:11-14KJV
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[bdavidc]

The gist still revolves around the scriptural definition of "seal."


That is not the question, as per above.


Again, they were not believers, so an analogy to believers apostatizing (or not apostatizing) cannot be made.


Again, the gist revolves around the scriptural definition of "seal" and not around God's end of his promise.

The seal is not a “what” but a “who”—take another look at v.13, “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

The Holy Spirit is the Christian’s seal. He seals his people. God’s own Spirit comes to dwell within or take up residence in the believer. And I think the nuances from above apply here. The promised Holy Spirit identifies God’s people as his inheritance. And the experience of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life is proof to them, and a demonstration to others, of the genuineness of their faith. The Holy Spirit provides the inward assurance that they belong to God as children (re: Rom.8:15-16; Gal. 4:6).

Nor should it be. A seal is not salvation. This is why, for example, we're not to grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom we were sealed for the day of redemption. The seal of the HS is a gracious gift of God, whereby he demonstrates the authenticity of the believer’s relationship with him and his authority, ownership, and commitment to his people. The Holy Spirit provides the inward assurance that they belong to God as children. It's proof to you and to others. This is ALL AT GOD'S END - not ours.

You keep repeating the same definition because you cannot answer the text. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the seal. Yes, He proves God’s ownership. Yes, this is all on God’s end. That destroys your position, not mine.

Scripture says the Spirit is “the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” ~Ephesians 1:14. It says believers are “sealed unto the day of redemption” ~Ephesians 4:30. Not sealed until they fail. Not sealed until they walk away. Sealed unto redemption.

You keep saying, “That is not the question,” because the actual question exposes your argument. Can a person sealed by God, indwelt by His Spirit, owned by Him, and guaranteed an inheritance become unsealed before redemption? You have produced no verse that says so.

Grieving the Spirit does not mean losing Him. Paul told sealed believers not to grieve Him. The warning rests on their relationship to Him, not the threat of abandonment.

And ~1 John 2:19 still stands: “They went out from us, but they were not of us.” Their departure exposed their false profession. John did not say they were born of God and then became unborn.

You are not explaining Scripture anymore. You are circling around it because you refuse its conclusion. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4.

Unless you can show one verse where the Holy Spirit’s seal is broken before the day of redemption, you have proved nothing.