Should Nations Help the Sick and Poor?

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Rockerduck

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Allegedly, Elon Musk was recently reported as the worlds first Trillionaire.

Imagine what he could do for the needy.

What I don't like though is the absurd movement that's piped up here and there that condemns wealth.

"That's just too much money for one person to have!"

They worked for it. Go away and hush!
Luke 12:48 - But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.
 

Gray_Joy

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I agree. I have long agreed that both individuals and nations collectively should help the poor, which is what the Bible says. The problem is, there are insidious lies in conservative churches teaching their congregations that only individuals and not nations should help the poor. This is totally non-biblical and a lie.

The U.S. has consistently contributed less than she used to do to help the sick, poor and needy. Trump's defunding of foreign aid has already cost the lives of over 750,000 people and is projected to cost the lives of over 9 million. Trump has defunded cancer research, mass pollution monitoring and related disease research, fired many top disease experts and has gutted Medicaid and defunded food programs for the poor in the U.S. Just this week, Trump stated he wants to get rid of social security and Medicare because he needs the money to fight wars.

Such actions by Trump are anti-Christ; against God Almighty.
America has always been at the forefront of financial assistance to the poor and sick in foreign nations.

Of late however,the Democrats pushback in Congress,the branch that controls the purse strings,has insured our nation contributes less than before.
 

Gray_Joy

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Luke 12:48 - But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.
Yes. However, I won't judge Mr.Musk because I don't know what good if any he does with his money.

What have you done with all that you have?
No answer is required. It's entirely personal.

As we judge,so too should we reflect upon our own selves in light of what we think to criticize in,of,others
 

Rockerduck

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Yes. However, I won't judge Mr.Musk because I don't know what good if any he does with his money.

What have you done with all that you have?
No answer is required. It's entirely personal.

As we judge,so too should we reflect upon our own selves in light of what we think to criticize in,of,others
But in 1 Corinthians 2:15 - But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
 

Gray_Joy

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But in 1 Corinthians 2:15 - But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
I think that's a bit biblically inconsistent and egocentric in comparison to the passages, judge not lest ye be judged. When ye judge use righteous judgement.


I don't judge Mr.Musks use of his finances because it is none of my business. And,I don't know him.
 

Rockerduck

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I think that's a bit biblically inconsistent and egocentric in comparison to the passages, judge not lest ye be judged. When ye judge use righteous judgement.


I don't judge Mr.Musks use of his finances because it is none of my business. And,I don't know him.
scripture cannot contradict scripture and there are no inconsistencies in the Bible. Jesus was telling unsaved jews how to live, yet the Apostle Paul, taught by Christ Jesus, says that as a born again believer whose sins are forgiven and now belong to Jesus, can judge all things and not be Judged by no man because we have the mind of Christ now. 1 Corinthians 2:16
 

Gray_Joy

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I think that's a bit biblically inconsistent and egocentric in comparison to the passages, judge not lest ye be judged. When ye judge use righteous judgement.


I don't judge Mr.Musks use of his finances because it is none of my business. And,I don't know him.

scripture cannot contradict scripture and there are no inconsistencies in the Bible. Jesus was telling unsaved jews how to live, yet the Apostle Paul, taught by Christ Jesus, says that as a born again believer whose sins are forgiven and now belong to Jesus, can judge all things and not be Judged by no man because we have the mind of Christ now. 1 Corinthians 2:16
Matthew 7:1-3.
And yet,we do that here and on every forum while discussing God's words.
 

Rockerduck

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Matthew 7:1-3.
And yet,we do that here and on every forum while discussing God's words.
Of course. But in 2 Timothy 2:15 - Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Study the full council of God and know how to apply it. Errors are always being made on forums by those whom are puffed up thinking only to follow Paul or just the words of Jesus. The old testament applies still in the Knowledge of God. The Apostle Paul even says to use it.
 

Gray_Joy

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Of course. But in 2 Timothy 2:15 - Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Study the full council of God and know how to apply it. Errors are always being made on forums by those whom are puffed up thinking only to follow Paul or just the words of Jesus. The old testament applies still in the Knowledge of God. The Apostle Paul even says to use it.
I think we are so concerned with being perfect as Christians that we don't realize we're still human.
 

bdavidc

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Apparently to justify their undying support of the Republican so-called 'free' market agenda, Evangelical and other conservative Christian leaders have invented an axiom seemingly taught religiously to their congregations, that only individuals and, not nations collectively, should help the sick and poor.

Fortunately for the sick and poor and, unfortunately for those who promote such nonsense, various prophets in the Bible and God himself seem to have the opposite opinion. Rather than debate with folks who apparently believe Jesus was a capitalist, let's see what the Bible actually says about this:

In Leviticus 23, God commands the nation of Israel: "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger. . ."

From Wikipedia: "On one of the two occasions that this is stated in Leviticus, it adds that in vineyards, some grapes should be left ungathered, a statement also found in Deuteronomy. These verses additionally command that olive trees should not be beaten on multiple occasions, and whatever remains from the first set of beatings should be left. . . Deuteronomy commands that it should be left for widows, strangers, and paternal orphans."

Imagine if in the modern United States, 10% or even 5% or even 3% of all taxation was devoted annually to house and feed the poor. Soon enough, there would be no poor people left to house and feed. Or, imagine if 10% of all monies collected by religious organizations was earmarked annually for helping the poor. Likely the same result would soon occur.

Both Malachi 3:6 and Zecharia 7:10 warn us not to oppress immigrants and the poor but rather, help them. In Exodus 22, unlike the Trump and Biden administration, God says: "you shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him. . ." And, God is strongly against charging any interest to the poor, rather than the 30% plus often charged by modern capitalist banks.

Jesus in the New Testament, teaches us to take the stranger in, rather than build a wall to keep poor refugees out and far worse, deliberately separate immigrant children from their weeping parent's arms. And in the so-called "dark" ages, it was considered barbaric to charge more than 5-6% interest.

According to the prophet Ezekiel (16:49), a primary reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is because they were a proud and haughty people who refused to help the poor and needy. Virtually all of the prophets were angry with political leaders and the nations of Israel and Judah for not helping the needy, poor and oppressed and, for often making their lot worse, like the Republican agenda does in modern-day America.

In Nehemiah chapter 5, Isaiah 3 & 10, Jeremiah 7 & 22, Amos 6 & 8, Michah 2 & 3, Zephaniah 3 and Habakkuk 2, the prophets are angry with political leaders and the nations of Judah and/or Israel for not helping and worse, often harming the poor. Moses likewise admonishes the children of Israel as a collective nation, to open their hand to the poor and needy.

In the New Testament, early followers of Jesus shared all things in common, distributing to each according to need. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the foundation of socialism is "to each according to need". Conservative Christian leaders call socialism "evil", even though the real followers of Jesus seem to have believed giving our excess to the poor is Godly, moral and correct.

Early "assemblies" of Jesus, that is groups of people, not buildings or religious organizations, often took up collections for the sick and poor. They seem to have forgotten to take up collections to build temples made with hands or for anything else that modern so-called 'churches' typically do.

It's rather difficult to imagine Jesus deliberately attempting to take healthcare away from the sick and poor, like Republicans have repeatedly tried to do. And, rather than attempt to list the myriad of places where Jesus teaches in both word and deed to help immigrants, the sick, the poor and the otherwise oppressed, it is wise to check out the four biographies of Jesus in the New Testament for our self.
You are taking a real biblical command to care for the poor and using it to push a political system the Bible never teaches.

No Christian should ignore the sick, the poor, the widow, the orphan, or the stranger. Scripture condemns greed, oppression, dishonest gain, and hardheartedness. But that does not prove socialism, open borders, government healthcare, or any particular tax plan.

Israel was a covenant nation under laws given directly by God. The gleaning laws did not tell the government to seize crops, collect taxes, and redistribute everything through a bureaucracy. Landowners were commanded to leave part of the harvest, and the poor went out and gathered it. Ruth did not receive a government payment. She went into the field and worked.

You also say that if enough tax money were spent, poverty could be eliminated. Scripture says otherwise: “For the poor shall never cease out of the land” ~Deuteronomy 15:11. Jesus said, “For ye have the poor always with you” ~Matthew 26:11. That does not excuse anyone from helping the poor, but it does prove that government cannot create the kind of perfect society you are describing.

Acts does not teach socialism either. The believers shared voluntarily. Peter said to Ananias, “Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?” ~Acts 5:4. The property was his. The money was his. There was no government seizure and no forced redistribution.

Paul said, “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity” ~2 Corinthians 9:7. “Not of necessity” matters. Christian giving is commanded, but it is not the same thing as the government taking money by force.

The early church helped people in need, but it also required personal responsibility. Paul said, “If any would not work, neither should he eat” ~2 Thessalonians 3:10. He also said that a man who refuses to provide for his own household “hath denied the faith” ~1 Timothy 5:8. In the same chapter, families were told to care for their own widows “that the church be not charged” ~1 Timothy 5:16. That is not the system you are promoting.

You also keep using verses about strangers as though they erase borders and civil law. They do not. Scripture condemns mistreating strangers. It does not say a nation must ignore its laws, remove its borders, or accept everyone without restraint. You are reading your political conclusions into the text.

Ezekiel 16:49 does condemn Sodom for pride, abundance, idleness, and failing to strengthen the poor. But the next verse says, “And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me” ~Ezekiel 16:50. You cannot stop reading when the rest of the passage no longer supports your argument.

Jesus was not a capitalist, and He was not a socialist. He did not come to endorse Republicans or Democrats. He came to save sinners, and He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” ~John 18:36.

Christians should give generously, help the poor, care for widows and orphans, and stand against oppression. But you do not prove socialism by quoting voluntary charity, Israel’s covenant laws, and God’s rebukes against injustice.

You are not simply asking what the Bible says. You are using the Bible to support your politics, then accusing anyone who disagrees with you of not caring about the poor. That is not honest Bible study. That is politics dressed up in Bible verses.
 

Ziggy

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As far as I know, countries do assist their poor and sick.

Though I think,just as the faithful in Christ are his church,that we who are citizens of a Democratic country are also its governors. And we can help the poor and sickly directly.

Bureaucracy takes time. Charity and compassion takes heart.
What country do you live in?
 

bdavidc

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The Bible clearly teaches that nations collectively should help the poor. If the people are the government, which is an American ideal, then our government should be helping the poor and needy.
“The people are the government” may sound good in a civics class, but it is not an answer from Scripture. You have taken two different things, personal charity and government force, and blended them together as though changing the name changes the act.

When a man gives to the poor, he answers to God for what he does with his own goods. When the state taxes, it takes by law and punishes refusal. Paul said Christian giving is “not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” ~2 Corinthians 9:7. You cannot turn “not of necessity” into compelled payment and still pretend the text supports you.

The real issue is not whether the poor should be helped. Of course they should. The issue is whether you have a verse that gives civil government the same work God gave to believers, families, and the church. You have produced no such verse. Instead, you have wrapped a political assumption in religious language and called it biblical.

That ought to trouble your conscience. It is a serious thing to put words into God’s mouth. “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” ~Proverbs 30:6. Stop telling us what the Bible “clearly teaches” and show the text. Until then, this is not Scripture speaking. It is your politics borrowing God’s authority.
 

bdavidc

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I told you what the Bible clearly teaches. I don't care what you prefer. "I prefer limited government", spoken like a true capitalist who doesn't care about his or her neighbor.
That last sentence is not an argument. It is a false accusation.

You do not know what lforrest gives, whom he helps, or whether he cares for his neighbor. Yet you judged his heart and condemned his character because he disagreed with your politics. Scripture calls that evil speaking.

“Speak not evil one of another, brethren” ~James 4:11.

You are doing exactly what Proverbs warns against: “He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him” ~Proverbs 18:17. Instead of answering what he actually said, you invented a motive and attacked that.

That is dishonest.

If you cannot defend your position without accusing other Christians of not caring about their neighbors, then your argument has already collapsed. Stop judging motives you cannot see and answer the words that were actually written.
 

Bob

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Can we agree the primary responsibility for assistance is an individual responsibility? There can be a legitimate role for local, state, and national governments, but it should be limited. Too many politicians want to spend other people’s money on welfare, which not only makes individuals think they are absolved of the responsibility, but leads to wasteful spending and even fraud.

A city government’s primary responsibility should be in keeping citizens safe, but if it is given a mandate to help the poor, that is best done by working with local charities, rather than forming separate, salaried agencies.

A county might help one of its poorer cities, but it could best do so by grants to the cities, which in turn should work through charities. Ditto the state.

As William F Buckley and President Reagan pointed out many years ago, it makes no sense for taxpayers to send dollars to Washington, for the purpose of paying bureaucrats to send some back. Instead, national welfare should be limited to the poorest states; rich states ought to be able to take care of their own charity partnerships.

Blessings.
 
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