Historian shares how Islam really began
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Pavel Mosko
Active Member
I saw that too but it is more speculative than what the thumbnail implies. I had Grok give me a detailed synopsis. I like the work Pfander and Films has done on Islam with archeology and other kinds of study, but am a little disappointed in this. The previous archelogy and manuscript studies was dynamite compared to this. e.g. Early Mosques pointing to Petra, No Early evidence of Mecca being inhabited during classical age, huge variations in surviving early Korans. all these things are really bad for the Islamic Dawah claims and Apologetics.
It made me wholly unreceptive to their evangelism; but I can work with it, use it to my advantage, to evangelize the Muslim evangelizers.
“In this article I will give some ideas about what to do if they invite you to read the Qur’an. This could very well happen because just as Christians give the Bible and encourage people to read it, Muslims di the same with the Qur’an. This happened to me when I was working as an engineer.”
(Samuel Green, “Using the Qur’an in Evangelism”)
au.thegospelcoalition.org
This happened to me, but it in a slightly different way.
I was working as a civil / environmental engineer and a Muslim with a Ph.D. In computer science was assigned to work with me on a project. We began discussing religion, and during the course of our conversation I asked if he had ever read the Bible. He said that he had. (And the knowledge he displayed about it persuaded me that he had. So much for offering him a copy of the Bible to read.)
I told him that Christians offer a copy of the Bible to Muslims and asked if Muslims offer a copy of the Qur’an to Christians. (At the time, I didn’t know if they did or not.) His eyes lit up! Before he said anything I said, “I would like to read the Qur’an but I don’t have a copy.” He smiled from ear to ear and said he would be delighted to provide an English translation for me.
The very next day he gifted me a copy of the Qur’an. I read it cover to cover in less than a week. He was surprised that I read it that quickly. I began asking him questions about the Qur’an and he was eager to answer them.
Our conversations went so well that he also gifted me a copy of the Hadith. I quickly read it and asked him additional questions.
The Muslim didn’t invite me to read the Qur’an, so I found another way to put us in that situation. It was a win-win proposition.
(Samuel Green, “Using the Qur’an in Evangelism”)
Using the Qur’an in Evangelism
If you are given a Qur’an, this can be an evangelistic opportunity for just as the apostle Paul quoted Greek philosophers at the Areopagus in Acts 17, so too, there are useful parts of the Qur’an that a Christian can refer to when talking to Muslims.
This happened to me, but it in a slightly different way.
I was working as a civil / environmental engineer and a Muslim with a Ph.D. In computer science was assigned to work with me on a project. We began discussing religion, and during the course of our conversation I asked if he had ever read the Bible. He said that he had. (And the knowledge he displayed about it persuaded me that he had. So much for offering him a copy of the Bible to read.)
I told him that Christians offer a copy of the Bible to Muslims and asked if Muslims offer a copy of the Qur’an to Christians. (At the time, I didn’t know if they did or not.) His eyes lit up! Before he said anything I said, “I would like to read the Qur’an but I don’t have a copy.” He smiled from ear to ear and said he would be delighted to provide an English translation for me.
The very next day he gifted me a copy of the Qur’an. I read it cover to cover in less than a week. He was surprised that I read it that quickly. I began asking him questions about the Qur’an and he was eager to answer them.
Our conversations went so well that he also gifted me a copy of the Hadith. I quickly read it and asked him additional questions.
The Muslim didn’t invite me to read the Qur’an, so I found another way to put us in that situation. It was a win-win proposition.
So I was, in a roundabout way, given an English translation of the Qur’an to read. It occupies a prominent place in my private library to this day. Whenever I see it, I’m instantly reminded of my Muslim coworker / friend.
Green continues,
“If you are given a Qur’an, this can be an evangelistic opportunity for just as the apostle Paul quoted Greek philosophers at the Areopagus in Acts 17, so too there are useful parts of the Qur’an that a Christian can refer to when talking to Muslims.
Some Words of Caution
If you are going to refer to the Qur’an, do not pretend to be an expert, you are not. But you can still point to specific verses and ask your Muslim friend to look at them too.
Secondly, you might need to ask if reading the Qur’an will cause another Christian to stumble. We do not want to give the impression that the Qur’an is equally God’s word. Be prepared to explain the reason for your approach to your Christian friends.
Finally, most Muslims do not read the Qur’an, so it may be a learning experience for them too. This is just the same as how many Christians are not very familiar with the whole Bible nor confident to tead it by themselves.
Keeping these cautions in mind, …”
(Ibid.)
The Muslim I worked with did read the Qur’an, in Arabic, and daily. He knew it like the back of his hand. (I later met Muslims who didn’t, but this man was an expert.)
The Christian pastor and the Muslim coworker / friend, who could have been an imam if he had wanted to.
The conversations between us were outstanding. I learned a great deal from them.
Green continues,
“If you are given a Qur’an, this can be an evangelistic opportunity for just as the apostle Paul quoted Greek philosophers at the Areopagus in Acts 17, so too there are useful parts of the Qur’an that a Christian can refer to when talking to Muslims.
Some Words of Caution
If you are going to refer to the Qur’an, do not pretend to be an expert, you are not. But you can still point to specific verses and ask your Muslim friend to look at them too.
Secondly, you might need to ask if reading the Qur’an will cause another Christian to stumble. We do not want to give the impression that the Qur’an is equally God’s word. Be prepared to explain the reason for your approach to your Christian friends.
Finally, most Muslims do not read the Qur’an, so it may be a learning experience for them too. This is just the same as how many Christians are not very familiar with the whole Bible nor confident to tead it by themselves.
Keeping these cautions in mind, …”
(Ibid.)
The Muslim I worked with did read the Qur’an, in Arabic, and daily. He knew it like the back of his hand. (I later met Muslims who didn’t, but this man was an expert.)
The Christian pastor and the Muslim coworker / friend, who could have been an imam if he had wanted to.
The conversations between us were outstanding. I learned a great deal from them.
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“…, here are four ways a Christian can use the Qur’an.
Read the Parallel Accounts of the Bible and the Qur’an Together
Muhammad retold many of the stories that have their origin in the Bible. This allows us to read parallel stories in the Bible and the Qur’an. I recommend that you compare stories where there is general agreement. This will avoid an argument and allow something more important to be shown. …
This exercise gives Muslims the practical experience of seeing the dependence of the Qur’an on the Bible and the necessity of their becoming familiar with the law, prophets and gospel.
Contrasting the Bible and the Qur’an‘s Teaching
The second way of using the Qur’an is to contrast it to the Bible. …
Raising topics like this can start interesting conversation about what Muslims and Christians believe, or give something for your Muslim friend to go away and think about.
Noticing that the Qur’an Validates the Bible
There are many verses in the Qur’an which validate the Bible. …
These verses can be helpful to show Muslims that they are not meant to dismiss the Bible.
Raising Theological Problems
There are various theological issues that can be noticed within the Quran itself. There are places where the Qur’an shows evidence of theology that does not conform to traditional Islamic teaching. …
As Christians we want to be sharing the gospel with Muslims from the Bible. However, if Muslims insist that we consider the Qur’an, that we can use that as a starting point for our evangelism.”
(Ibid.)
I’ll conclude this evening by adding that my Muslim coworker / friend is a Sunni. He was ”touchy” whenever I mentioned Shia. (I occasionally mentioned other sects as well, but he quickly dismissed them.)
Read the Parallel Accounts of the Bible and the Qur’an Together
Muhammad retold many of the stories that have their origin in the Bible. This allows us to read parallel stories in the Bible and the Qur’an. I recommend that you compare stories where there is general agreement. This will avoid an argument and allow something more important to be shown. …
This exercise gives Muslims the practical experience of seeing the dependence of the Qur’an on the Bible and the necessity of their becoming familiar with the law, prophets and gospel.
Contrasting the Bible and the Qur’an‘s Teaching
The second way of using the Qur’an is to contrast it to the Bible. …
Raising topics like this can start interesting conversation about what Muslims and Christians believe, or give something for your Muslim friend to go away and think about.
Noticing that the Qur’an Validates the Bible
There are many verses in the Qur’an which validate the Bible. …
These verses can be helpful to show Muslims that they are not meant to dismiss the Bible.
Raising Theological Problems
There are various theological issues that can be noticed within the Quran itself. There are places where the Qur’an shows evidence of theology that does not conform to traditional Islamic teaching. …
As Christians we want to be sharing the gospel with Muslims from the Bible. However, if Muslims insist that we consider the Qur’an, that we can use that as a starting point for our evangelism.”
(Ibid.)
I’ll conclude this evening by adding that my Muslim coworker / friend is a Sunni. He was ”touchy” whenever I mentioned Shia. (I occasionally mentioned other sects as well, but he quickly dismissed them.)
I’ve watched the video in post #1 multiple times.
Does the historian think extolling the Crusades is a good way, a successful way, the Messiah’s way to evangelize Muslims? I don’t know.
I know many Christians do. I also know that it’s not.
Does the historian think extolling the Crusades is a good way, a successful way, the Messiah’s way to evangelize Muslims? I don’t know.
I know many Christians do. I also know that it’s not.
Pavel Mosko
Active Member
“In this article I will give some ideas about what to do if they invite you to read the Qur’an. This could very well happen because just as Christians give the Bible and encourage people to read it, Muslims di the same with the Qur’an. This happened to me when I was working as an engineer.”
(Samuel Green, “Using the Qur’an in Evangelism”)
Using the Qur’an in Evangelism
If you are given a Qur’an, this can be an evangelistic opportunity for just as the apostle Paul quoted Greek philosophers at the Areopagus in Acts 17, so too, there are useful parts of the Qur’an that a Christian can refer to when talking to Muslims.
This happened to me, but it in a slightly different way.
I was working as a civil / environmental engineer and a Muslim with a Ph.D. In computer science was assigned to work with me on a project. We began discussing religion, and during the course of our conversation I asked if he had ever read the Bible. He said that he had. (And the knowledge he displayed about it persuaded me that he had. So much for offering him a copy of the Bible to read.)
I told him that Christians offer a copy of the Bible to Muslims and asked if Muslims offer a copy of the Qur’an to Christians. (At the time, I didn’t know if they did or not.) His eyes lit up! Before he said anything I said, “I would like to read the Qur’an but I don’t have a copy.” He smiled from ear to ear and said he would be delighted to provide an English translation for me.
The very next day he gifted me a copy of the Qur’an. I read it cover to cover in less than a week. He was surprised that I read it that quickly. I began asking him questions about the Qur’an and he was eager to answer them.
Our conversations went so well that he also gifted me a copy of the Hadith. I quickly read it and asked him additional questions.
The Muslim didn’t invite me to read the Qur’an, so I found another way to put us in that situation. It was a win-win proposition.
Well there is a built in booby trap if you had. There version of the Shema the one professing belief in Allah and his prophet, that one is like being baptized Muslim if you read it out loud, it is conversion, like a creed.
That’s an interesting observation. The Shema is my creed. (Scot McKnight, as you may be aware, refers to it as “the Jesus creed.”) I make that known to Muslims early on in my conversations with them.
A well-prepared Muslim apologist has. A well-prepared Christian apologist will too.
My Muslim co-worker / friend is just such an apologist. He “hit me” with it early in our conversations. Don’t hold me to it, but I think it was the third time that we sat down to discuss Islam.
I was prepared for it. I had already read it.
Why did he do it?
Simple. He believes the Bible isn’t wholly reliable; that it has been corrupted. He wants to take me away from the Bible, but not too far away. (See again my thread, “The Quranic Dilemma”.)
”Barnabas, as you know, is an apostle.” (Yes, I know.) “Have you read his gospel?” (There’s the pitch. Or invitation, if you prefer.)
Muslims like The Gospel of Barnabas. They want us to read it. Do we know what it says? Do we know when it was written? (It’s important for us to know.)
If you haven’t read it, you should. If you don’t, the Muslim will hold it against you. (I’ll read anything that a Muslim wants me to read, especially if it is from a Christian source.) It’s to our advantage to take that away from him or her.
Let’s do it. What do we find when we do? We find that it contradicts the New Testament; just like the Muslim said that it does. We agree with him or her. And that’s what we need to say to a Muslim; followed by a conversation about the origin of the book. (It isn’t what the Muslim thinks that it is.)
P.S.
“In a previous blog post (Islam and the Crucifixion) I mentioned a book called The Gospel of Barnabas and how some Muslim apologists have used it to defend the Islamic view of Jesus. I pointed out that this so-called ‘gospel’ is fraught with anachronisms, and there is virtually no evidence for its existence prior to medieval times. …”
(Jon Sorensen, “Why the ‘Gospel of Barnabas’ is a Medieval Fake”)
Why the ‘Gospel of Barnabas’ is a Medieval Fake
The so-called "Gospel of Barnabas" is fraught with anachronisms and there is no evidence to support its antiquity. Still some Muslims use it as evidence.
Don’t rely solely on Sorensen. Confirm what he says by consulting other Christian sources, as well as secular sources.
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An update. Two of the three malefactors repeated their slander on the forum yesterday. For the love of God, don’t stop them. Place my posts next to theirs. Compare and contrast what I say with what they say. That’s all that I ask.
So, anyway …
* Nod to John Cleese *
”Jesus obviously lied … We must admit deception is an important tool in war and there is a spiritual war.”
The words of a Muslim? No. The words of a member who is registered here as “Christian”.
No Christian should ever say such a thing about Jesus, nor present deception as a Christian ethic to be utilized in spiritual warfare.
And that’s absolutely not the way to evangelize Muslims (nor any other non-Christians.)
* Nod to John Cleese *
”Jesus obviously lied … We must admit deception is an important tool in war and there is a spiritual war.”
The words of a Muslim? No. The words of a member who is registered here as “Christian”.
No Christian should ever say such a thing about Jesus, nor present deception as a Christian ethic to be utilized in spiritual warfare.
And that’s absolutely not the way to evangelize Muslims (nor any other non-Christians.)
An anecdote. My Muslim co-worker / friend told me that “Allah has no son.” (Standard Islamic theology.) I agreed with him, but before I can say it he asked me, “Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where someone besides Jesus is called the son of God?” (He doesn’t think that I can.)
“Yes,” I replied. With a surprised look on his face, and a slight hint of defiance in his voice, he said, “Show me.” That’s a perfectly reasonable and legitimate request.
I had a Bible in my office. I pulled it out and intentionally turned slowly to Luke 3. I glanced at him as I was turning the pages. He was leaning in, his attention focused on my page turning.
”There it is,” I said. “Luke, Chapter 3.” He leaned back and politely asked me to read it to him.
“Luke, Chapter 3, verses 23-38.” And I began reading.
After I read verse 38, I looked up at him. Normally he has a warm, smiling face. Now his face was hard as flint. In a calm voice, all he said was, “Well, I don’t know about that.“
I asked him if he would like to read it for himself. He didn’t.
I asked if he would like for me to read it from a different translation. (I had several in my office.) He didn’t.
I asked him if he would like for me to read it from the Greek. (I didn’t keep a copy of the New Testament in Greek at the office. But I had one at home and could bring it to the office the next day. He‘s an extremely well-educated man and he had told me previously that he can read Greek. I have no reason to doubt him.) He didn’t.
Where did the conversation go after that? I put my Bible away and ended it. It was time for us to get back to work on our government project. It never came up in conversation again.
P.S.
Some might be wondering, did he change his mind about Allah not having a son? No. Nor was I trying to persuade him to.
What did I accomplish? I answered his question about the Bible and planted a seed.
“Yes,” I replied. With a surprised look on his face, and a slight hint of defiance in his voice, he said, “Show me.” That’s a perfectly reasonable and legitimate request.
I had a Bible in my office. I pulled it out and intentionally turned slowly to Luke 3. I glanced at him as I was turning the pages. He was leaning in, his attention focused on my page turning.
”There it is,” I said. “Luke, Chapter 3.” He leaned back and politely asked me to read it to him.
“Luke, Chapter 3, verses 23-38.” And I began reading.
After I read verse 38, I looked up at him. Normally he has a warm, smiling face. Now his face was hard as flint. In a calm voice, all he said was, “Well, I don’t know about that.“
I asked him if he would like to read it for himself. He didn’t.
I asked if he would like for me to read it from a different translation. (I had several in my office.) He didn’t.
I asked him if he would like for me to read it from the Greek. (I didn’t keep a copy of the New Testament in Greek at the office. But I had one at home and could bring it to the office the next day. He‘s an extremely well-educated man and he had told me previously that he can read Greek. I have no reason to doubt him.) He didn’t.
Where did the conversation go after that? I put my Bible away and ended it. It was time for us to get back to work on our government project. It never came up in conversation again.
P.S.
Some might be wondering, did he change his mind about Allah not having a son? No. Nor was I trying to persuade him to.
What did I accomplish? I answered his question about the Bible and planted a seed.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
so too will the inclusive religoin lead to great crusades , spilling more blood
that anti christ islam has or even christendom and the crusades did .
THEY found a way to MERGE THE RELIGOINS . my advice DONT take a seat at that table .
the inclusive god has come to merge all as one and to declare war against the true saints
WHO darn sure aint joining hands with that ecumeincal harlot .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
so you see there is nothing new under the sun .
You should see what the new agers did and now do .
As they merge ALL RELIGOINS under a fat lie , a false hope , a broad path and a kuymbia song of love and world peace .
THEY LIE TO US ALL .
The uniter of the DECIEVED has come TO UNITE ALL that were and are decieved to become as one people .
THAT DO Include the decieved within christendom too .
SO let us not buy the lie of an ecumeincal HARLOT that sits over many waters now
and guides ALL RELIGOINS to be as one with a splash of LOVE and a promise of WORLD PEACE .
IT be a liar , like its father a liar .
What will European governments do?
That’s a government issue. Romans 13.
What will Christians do? Time will tell.
What Christians are called to do is follow the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.
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