The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Spiritual Israelite]

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Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

Is Zechariah 14:4 a prophecy about the second coming of Christ? Why is Jesus going to return at the Mount of Olives?

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Zechariah 14:4 predicts, “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the Mount moving north and half moving south.” “That day” is a reference to the Day of the Lord, and the One who stands on the mountain is the Lord Himself. So, yes, this passage predicts the second coming of Christ.

The opening of Zechariah 14 speaks of a future day when Jerusalem will be plundered by its enemies. Verse 2 prophesies that all nations will gather against Jerusalem and capture and ransack the city. Half of the citizens of Jerusalem will flee the devastation, but the other half will remain. This will be one half of the one third of the Jewish population still alive in Jerusalem after the Tribulation (13:8). Then, Zechariah says, the Lord Himself will go forth and engage these opponents in battle (14:3). Verse 4 speaks of the Messiah standing on the Mount of Olives, a hill near Jerusalem on the east. The mountain will split, creating an enormous valley. Since none of this has taken place yet, the prophecy points to a future time.

A parallel passage tells of the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21). Revelation 16:18-21 predicts horrible events at the end of the Tribulation when the seventh bowl is poured out:

“Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. . . . Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.”

The earthquake in Revelation could very well speak of the event described in Zechariah when the Mount of Olives splits in two. Jesus the Messiah will cause an earthquake at His second coming that will serve as part of the destruction of God’s enemies. The outcome of this battle is never in doubt: Christ will be the victor, Israel’s enemies will be destroyed, and the beast (Antichrist) and false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:11-21).

You referenced Zechariah 13:8 in a futurist sense. What is your understanding of the verse immediately preceding that one?

Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

How do you interpret the following passage...

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

How do you interpret this passage...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So he thinks Daniel chapter 10 is people not angles? Wow

Yes. This is why he is not someone who can be taken seriously. Anyone who believes such extreme nonsense as that is not someone who has any credibility.

 

[rwb]

Yes of course haven't disputed that

You haven't??? Why do you continue to argue "great tribulation" Christ foretells pertains to 70 AD? When in fact the Bible calls what happened in 70 AD the wrath of God being poured out upon an apostate disobedient nation!

 

[Marty fox]

Yes. This is why he is not someone who can be taken seriously. Anyone who believes such extreme nonsense as that is not someone who has any credibility.

Well it all make scence now

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You haven't??? Why do you continue to argue "great tribulation" Christ foretells pertains to 70 AD? When in fact the Bible calls what happened in 70 AD the wrath of God being poured out upon an apostate disobedient nation!

God's wrath can be described as great tribulation just as it is in Revelation 2:22...

Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is the same "great tribulation" as Matthew 24:21. I'm just showing that God's wrath can be called "great tribulation" just as it is here in this passage.

Jesus referred to what was going to happen to Jerusalem as "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people" (Luke 21:23). So, He associated "great distress", which is the same as great tribulation, with God's "wrath upon this people".

 

[Marty fox]

You haven't??? Why do you continue to argue "great tribulation" Christ foretells pertains to 70 AD? When in fact the Bible calls what happened in 70 AD the wrath of God being poured out upon an apostate disobedient nation!

Because I've explained a few times now that "the great tribulation" in Revelation 7 is on the church, the same events as Matthew 24:9 and the wrath of God upon apostate Isreal was a great tribulation time period for them.


If you can't see that and separate them then I can't explain it anymore

 

[Marty fox]

God's wrath can be described as great tribulation just as it is in Revelation 2:22...

Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is the same "great tribulation" as Matthew 24:21. I'm just showing that God's wrath can be called "great tribulation" just as it is here in this passage.

Jesus referred to what was going to happen to Jerusalem as "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people" (Luke 21:23). So, He associated "great distress", which is the same as great tribulation, with God's "wrath upon this people".

Yes exactly

 

[rwb]

Preterists both part and full would do well to learn the difference between wrath that comes from God and great tribulation that comes from the world, the flesh and the devil. Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are related but distinct events in biblical prophecy, with great tribulation focusing on persecution and suffering of faithful saints, and the Wrath of God representing divine judgment against sin and rebellion.

 

[Marty fox]

Preterists both part and full would do well to learn the difference between wrath that comes from God and great tribulation that comes from the world, the flesh and the devil. Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are related but distinct events in biblical prophecy, with great tribulation focusing on persecution and suffering of faithful saints, and the Wrath of God representing divine judgment against sin and rebellion.

We agree here in your second sentence, but the wrath of God is also a tribulation time period for the ones who the wrath falls upon

 

[rwb]

Yes exactly

Rev 2:22 is written to the church warning of great tribulation that shall come upon them who say they belong to Christ and do not. The Bible does not make a distinction between those in the church who have been born again, and those in the church who are in fact false prophets, liars and deceivers. Like I've repeatedly said, Christ warns His saints that "great tribulation" would come upon THEM if they fail to repent for allowing evil to exist within the church.

 

[rwb]

We agree here in your second sentence, but the wrath of God is also a tribulation time period for the ones who the wrath falls upon

I understand why the Preterit must argue both! But you fail to acknowledge that God says the church is called to endure great tribulation, while those in unbelief shall receive the wrath of God. Since you think they are great tribulation and the wrath of God are interchangeable, will you also argue the reverse? IOW do you also believe faithful saints through disobedience will receive wrath of God?

 

[Marty fox]

I understand why the Preterit must argue both! But you fail to acknowledge that God says the church is called to endure great tribulation, while those in unbelief shall receive the wrath of God. Since you think they are great tribulation and the wrath of God are interchangeable, will you also argue the reverse? IOW do you also believe faithful saints through disobedience will receive wrath of God?

No, and I don't fail to see at God says the church is called to endure great tribulation, while those in unbelief shall receive the wrath of God.


Your just stuck on words and not even trying to see what I have explained multiple times. Words can have different meaning

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Preterists both part and full would do well to learn the difference between wrath that comes from God and great tribulation that comes from the world, the flesh and the devil. Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are related but distinct events in biblical prophecy,

So, I'll have to assume that you have me on your ignore list because I showed you a clear example in scripture where God's wrath is referred to as "great tribulation". But, here you are still denying that God's wrath can be described as "great tribulation"

Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 2:22 is written to the church warning of great tribulation that shall come upon them who say they belong to Christ and do not.

It refers to those who are like Jezebel who was practicing sexual immorality and eating food sacrificed to idols and influencing others to do the same. In that verse, "great tribulation" refers to God's wrath that comes against those who refuse to repent. Yet, you try to say that God's wrath cannot ever be described as "great tribulation". That verse proves otherwise.

The Bible does not make a distinction between those in the church who have been born again, and those in the church who are in fact false prophets, liars and deceivers. Like I've repeatedly said, Christ warns His saints that "great tribulation" would come upon THEM if they fail to repent for allowing evil to exist within the church.

And that "great tribulation" is in the form of God's wrath, so why do you say that God's wrath can't ever be described as "great tribulation"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand why the Preterit must argue both!

No, those who are honest with scripture argue both. You don't have to be a preterist to interpret Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24) as being God's wrath against the Jews in 70 AD.

But you fail to acknowledge that God says the church is called to endure great tribulation, while those in unbelief shall receive the wrath of God.

In Revelation 2:22, would you not call "great tribulation", that Jesus said would come against Jezebel and anyone else in that church who refused to repent while practicing sexual immorality and eating food sacrificed to idols, God's wrath?

Since you think they are great tribulation and the wrath of God are interchangeable, will you also argue the reverse? IOW do you also believe faithful saints through disobedience will receive wrath of God?

What a ridiculous question. All he and I are showing you is that God's wrath CAN be referred to as "great tribulation". We're not saying that great tribulation is always God's wrath.

 

[rwb]

No, and I don't fail to see at God says the church is called to endure great tribulation, while those in unbelief shall receive the wrath of God.


Your just stuck on words and not even trying to see what I have explained multiple times. Words can have different meaning

I'm stuck on words Marty? I wouldn't say you're stuck on words but that you are stuck on the unbiblical doctrine of Preterism. Yes, I know you claim to be PP, but still cannot receive what is written. Even though you say you are only a PP you still insist that great tribulation from God came to apostate Israel, even though the BIBLE shows us it was the wrath from God, and not great tribulation that the church must endure not from God, but from the enemies of Christ and His church. Yes, words have meanings, and great tribulation against the church began to come when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. The wrath of God is God’s direct judgment and is often depicted as irreversible and severe. Scripture emphasizes that believers are kept from God's wrath, even though we are appointed to much affliction, (anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.)

I get that your doctrine needs for the wrath of God to be great tribulation against apostate Israel in 70 AD. But the Bible does not agree with your man-made doctrine. It is written great tribulation, affliction, anguish, burdens, persecution, and trouble come against the church on earth. But the wrath from God is always ordained for those who have not been born again, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, children of disobedience, those who worship the beast, this describes apostate Israel in 70 AD, which is why the wrath of God was poured upon them, not great tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (KJV) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[rwb]

Marty, Rev 2:22 is written to the church, warning them of great tribulation that would come upon them because they allowed Jezebel to "teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Jezebel and those within the church who commit adultery with her will be spared great tribulation IF they repent of their deeds. But if not the church shall come under great tribulation as a result of allowing unchecked sin to be in the church.

Revelation 2:18-23 (KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jezebel and all those who commit sin with her are in the church in Thyatira, members with those who Christ says, "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last more than the first." But Christ has some things against these faithful saints because THEY were allowing fornication, false prophesy, and idolatry to go unchecked in the church. These are the things that will bring great tribulation to the faithful church. Because this is how those under the influence of evil work to bring the church to ruin. Because these false professors of faith will cause great tribulation to the faithful saints as the light is taken from the church and though they suffer great tribulation if they are born again when Christ searches the reins (minds) and hearts giving unto everyone according to their works shall be. Those found guilty are not condemned to suffer great tribulation! The faithful church shall. But Christ says Jezebel and all her children (unbelievers) shall be killed so that all the churches shall know the judgment of Christ (JSC) is not idol, for He knows those who belong to Him.

Luke 11:33-36 (KJV) No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

The church in Thyatira had allowed the church to become darkness rather than shining the light of Christ. The candlestick is the church which Christ sent to be the true light of the whole body/eye. When the body allows darkness instead of shining the light of Christ, the whole body becomes part of the darkness and no longer shining light to the world. This is what was happening to the church in Thyatira, and for that reason the church had set itself up for great tribulation if the church does not repent.

 

[WPM]

Really? He doesn't believe that they exist

Correct! Amazing!

 

[WPM]

So he thinks Daniel chapter 10 is people not angles? Wow

Correct!

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, Rev 2:22 is written to the church, warning them of great tribulation that would come upon them because they allowed Jezebel to "teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Jezebel and those within the church who commit adultery with her will be spared great tribulation IF they repent of their deeds. But if not the church shall come under great tribulation as a result of allowing unchecked sin to be in the church.

Revelation 2:18-23 (KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jezebel and all those who commit sin with her are in the church in Thyatira, members with those who Christ says, "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last more than the first." But Christ has some things against these faithful saints because THEY were allowing fornication, false prophesy, and idolatry to go unchecked in the church. These are the things that will bring great tribulation to the faithful church. Because this is how those under the influence of evil work to bring the church to ruin. Because these false professors of faith will cause great tribulation to the faithful saints as the light is taken from the church and though they suffer great tribulation if they are born again when Christ searches the reins (minds) and hearts giving unto everyone according to their works shall be. Those found guilty are not condemned to suffer great tribulation! The faithful church shall. But Christ says Jezebel and all her children (unbelievers) shall be killed so that all the churches shall know the judgment of Christ (JSC) is not idol, for He knows those who belong to Him.

Luke 11:33-36 (KJV) No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

The church in Thyatira had allowed the church to become darkness rather than shining the light of Christ. The candlestick is the church which Christ sent to be the true light of the whole body/eye. When the body allows darkness instead of shining the light of Christ, the whole body becomes part of the darkness and no longer shining light to the world. This is what was happening to the church in Thyatira, and for that reason the church had set itself up for great tribulation if the church does not repent.

I think that you meant this for spiritual Israelite not me