Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you think it's not worth considering EVERYTHING that Jesus said in order to get to the truth of this matter? Why only focus on that one thing?
The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The end of what tribulation exactly? Do you know that people don't all define "the tribulation" the same way? You seem very new to these types of discussions and don't seem to be aware of how people define terms various ways. So, define your terms so that we can be on the same page when discussing this.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Can you try to not limit the discussion so much? Everything Jesus said has to be taken into consideration here in order to understand any part of what He said. Context is very important, so isolating some verses from all the rest and drawing conclusions just from those verses without considering context is not helpful in understanding the context of those verses. Do you understand that?
Jesus said it that way because he, being God...knew He would return twice. In the air then physically.
Perhaps you ought to consider everything.
Now, please explain the days of Noah and Lot. How does that "happy time" scenario fit into a Rev 19 end of the tribulation scenario.
The seven year tribulation is between the resurrection/rapture and the arrival of Jesus in Rev 19 and Zech 14.
I'm simply quoting what Jesus say...you seem to be disregarding it and still haven't explained the days of Noah and Lot comment Jesus made.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Look at how much detail I go into in my posts compared to yours and you're accusing me of not considering everything? You are apparently not a reasonable person.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Okay, buddy. You are obviously very ignorant and immature and now you're saying I'm disregarding things, which I clearly am not. We're done. Let me know if you ever grow up.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you comparing that to the flood of Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day or are you saying that occurs before what Jesus compared to the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day?
LOL....yes, great detail that didn't answer my question about the times of Noah and Lot.
Once again...how does that comment made by Jesus fit into an end of tribulation resurrection/rapture?
I'm comparing it to what they were doing at that time...
Here's the description you keep avoiding....Noahs time...They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...
Lots time....They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.
How does this fit into the end of the tribulation ?
You are not thinking outside of the box. Perspective is relevant here.
Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Obviously, the fate of those in verse 17 that worship the beast, have the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name--is not the same fate those in verse 15 experience during it's 42 month reign.
Therefore, per the perspective of those with the mark--it equals this--They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built. And this proves it--no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
You want us to believe that---they bought---they sold--does not equal this---no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name? If 'they bought' 'they sold' does not equal buy and sell, what then does 'they bought' 'they sold' equal?
You don't dispute that the 42 month reign of the beast = great tribulation, right? According to Revelation 13, only those with mark can buy and sell, the exact same thing Jesus said they would be doing when He returns--buying and selling, for one. It doesn't matter what sense that is meaning in, it is clearly connected with what they are doing during great tribulation, buying and selling. Not the ones not worshiping the beast. The ones worshiping the beast. Thus perspective is relevant.
Those not worshiping the beast are killed during when the beast is being worshiped. Those worshiping the beast are not being killed during when the beast is being worshiped. They are killed after the time of the beast, thus after great tribulation against the church has run it's course.
The problem is when it comes to the Discourse, Pretribbers take some things in the literal sense not meant to be taken in the literal sense to begin with. Preterists take some things in the literal sense not meant to be taken in the literal sense to begin with. And those who are not Preterists but align with Preterist thinking per some parts of the Discourse, equally take some things in the literal sense not meant to be taken in the literal sense to begin with.
IOW, per the Discourse, Jesus is not allowed per these views to be speaking on a spiritual level rather than a literal level. Scripture is supposed to interpret scripture, and other Scripture, such as Luke 17:31-33, undeniably proves that Jesus wasn't meaning in a literal sense pertaining to Matthew 24:15-20. Or maybe I should say undeniably proves to anyone not lacking spiritual discernment here.
Do you flat out deny that during great tribulation, thus the 42 month reign of the beast, that those with the mark are buying and selling? If you don't deny that, how can you then expect any reasonable person to agree with you when you insist it is ludicrous anyone is buying and selling during great tribulation, therefore, the Noah's flood example is meaning at the beginning of great tribulation not at the end of it, since it makes no sense to you that anyone would be buying and selling during great tribulation despite that Revelation 13 plainly, thus clearly, says they will be? Once again, clearly, buying and selling is one thing they are doing prior to the coming meant in Matthew 24.
Therefore, the correct chronology is this--they buy and sell during great tribulation. At the end of great tribulation they are then destroyed.
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You're being excessively paranoid! I use exclamation points all the time when I wish to make a definitive point! It has nothing to do with escalating some argument of your imagination or being uncivil. I've replied to your opinion, showing you how and why I have an opinion that differs from yours.
When the last day of the Lord for calling on the name of the Lord to be saved comes, then as you've clearly shown there will not be more time (a thousand years), rather there will be sudden destruction for unbelievers, and the beginning of the everlasting eternal age for all who have been born again. We find agreement on the last day of the Lord, which shall be the last of these last days.
But we disagree on the specific terminology, with you arguing the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell is these last days, which of course it is! But you deny these last days that began with the advent of Christ, are indeed the day/age/time of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell. You want us to believe the day of the Lord the prophets foretell consists only of the last day of these last days. That makes zero sense because the prophets tell us that when the day of the Lord comes is when man will call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Do you really want to deny that man has been calling upon the Lord from every nation of the world since Christ came to earth a man? Because if the day of the Lord is the future last day only, how can any man call upon the name of the Lord to be saved? It's impossible if the day of the Lord has not yet come!
Why would the prophets of old prophesy two comings of Jesus since they prophesy only of "THE day of the LORD cometh"? Nowhere do they speak of the prophesied LORD coming two times. All that the prophets foretell concerning the LORD shall be fulfilled in this age/day/time when the LORD would come! In THE day/age/time when man shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved!
Let's use the birth of Christ as a starting point. Post His birth the NT only knows of one DOTL in the future, and that it comes as a thief in the night. And that it has not arrived yet, in any sense. Since the topic of this thread is Zechariah 14, that obviously means, since everything in Zechariah 14 is also meaning post His birth, and that the NT only knows of one DOTL in the future post His birth, therefore, the DOTL meant in Zechariah 14 must mean the same one meant in the NT, obviously.
Anyone that would argue otherwise, then argue against how you are applying the DOTL have no business arguing that with you when they are doing something just as profound, they too inventing another DOTL the NT knows nothing about, by them having the DOTL meant in Zechariah 14 not be meaning the same DOTL meant in the NT.
In your case, maybe you should seek something else to explain it and maybe quit applying the DOTL to it?
Of course the prophets spoke of two comings in some of their prophecies though they may not have realized at the time, two comings are meant. But since the Holy Spirit was speaking through them, it would be absurd that the Holy Spirit, during when He was prophesying through them, that even He didn't know of two comings yet. As if that makes sense, that an all knowing God did not even realize during the prophets of old that the coming of Christ would involve two comings. Have you never heard of such as a thing as, hidden in the OT, revealed in the NT?
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Great tribulation is only 3.5 years not 7 years. Maybe you are conflating the 70th week of Daniel per your view? Assuming the 70th week is still future, the first half of it is not even involving great tribulation. Great tribulation is meaning after the middle of the week if the 70th week is still future. I tend to think the first half of the 70th week was fulfilled 2000 years ago, and that the remainder of it is future still, the remainder involving the 42 month reign of the beast, thus great tribulation.
My view looks like this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--was fulfilled by Christ 2000 years ago--followed by a gap followed by this after the gap--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate--thus fulfilled during the 42 month reign of the beast.
IOW---The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit pit(Revelation 17:8) = the following
was---meaning before the beast is in the pit. Meaning before Christ fulfilled the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago.
and is not--meaning when Christ fulfilled the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago, therefore, sending the beast to the pit at the time, thus also meaning the gap between the midst of the 70th week and the final half of the week
and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit---meaning after the gap that followed the beast being cast into the pit---meaning the final half of the 70th week, thus the 42 month reign of the beast, thus great tribulation.
After all, in order for the beast to ascend out of the pit in the future, it requires that the beast has to be in the pit first, obviously. The midst of the 70th week, IMO, is the only logical thing that explain how and when the beast ends up in the pit. Not to be confused with satan, though. Clearly, the beast and satan are not the same entity, and Revelation 20:10, for one, undeniably proves it, in the event one argues the beast and satan are the same entity.
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