Free Will

[Spiritual Israelite]

In a purely humanistic sense, yes, any Calvinist ~ and hopefully anyone ~ would say that man has free will. But... Dan... there is a certain sense in which man's will is never free. How he uses his will always ~ always ~ depends on the state of his heart. Before a man is born again of the Spirit, his will is always to do the will of his father the devil, and after a man is born again of the Spirit, his will is always to do the will of his Father God. What Jesus said, as I quoted above, in John 6, 8, and 10 is Rock-solid... <smile> ...proof of that.

Do you claim that Lydia was born again before she heard the gospel (Acts 16:14)? Do you claim that her father was the devil before hearing the gospel despite the fact that she was already a worshiper of God before the gospel was preached to her?

 

[Bombastic]

Do you claim that Lydia was born again before she heard the gospel (Acts 16:14)? Do you claim that her father was the devil before hearing the gospel despite the fact that she was already a worshiper of God before the gospel was preached to her?

Systematically, if I may input my response here while not directed towards me, yes. All true genuine believers are regenerated, and regeneration precedes faith. Romans 1 emphasizes the glory of G-d is seen in the creative natural order, that is natural or general revelation opposed to special revelation (the biblical canon, not just the NT). Ephesians chapter 1 and 2 should clarify the ordo salutis to the point where there is no argument. Chime in if you want to inquire more. The best interpreter of scripture is scripture, if you don't see it in the immediate context, use the tota of sola scriptura.
Consider this: should that make anybody that loves G-d bend a knee and say in utmost adoration, Soli Deo Gloria? Why? Because G-d transplanted that heart of stone for the heart after G-d like king David. That is, when we hadn't first loved G-d he loved us. G-d reached down in his "mysterious or secret will" for unknown and unmerited reasons and made that individual the object of His grace. G-d, in my own words, said, "I want that man." What power do any of us have to resist? (Psalm 8).
Because a single verse doesn't recap in a preamble, pages and pages of the ordo salutis don't prove that the systematic approach to the ordo salutis is incorrect in contrast to selectivism.
I ask, and this doesn't need a response. Take a moment to pause and consider: what is the opposition to Soli Deo Gloria in the context of all these responses?
What is it in man that doesn't want to give up all glory to G-d?
Pride, arrogance, and sin? (Isaiah 14)
I'm not convicting; I am merely asking for self-examination.
Every doctrine should bend the knee and make the tongue profess the glory of G-d alone.
Not man!
And that's the weeping moment men become reformed or further Calvinist (monergism).
Even an Arminian sounds like a Calvinist on his knees in desperate prayer. Remember the great hymn by a Calvinist slave, "Amazing Grace."
Every believer sounds like a Calvinist in prayer, or that publican thanking G-d he isn't like that other man because he himself...
Soli Deo Gloria!?
Really consider the emphasis of the Calvinist debate. Calvinists convey Soli Deo Gloria, and what are opponents championing? Man? Why? What in man warrants recognition or merit? (Psalm 8 should convey the grace of G-d).
Deep to deep, co-laborer? Black or white friend or foe to the true Gospel?

 

[Behold]

But neither means there is no freewill. Actually, the combination of "decision" and "has (judged)" means both are true--well kinda: We have freewill, but we decided "before." Which is to say, "in the twinkling of an eye" "before the world was"

Could you post the book or commentary where you read this crazy nonsense, as no verse in a real bible supports your bizarre post.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you claim that Lydia was born again before she heard the gospel (Acts 16:14)?

Yes, because in Acts 16:15 we read ~ quoting ~ "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul..." So, "opened," which is past tense... <smile> So, how far in advance of what was said by Paul the Lord did this we cannot say. Possibly immediately prior, but possibly further prior than that; we cannot know.

Do you claim that her father was the devil before hearing the gospel despite the fact that she was already a worshiper of God before the gospel was preached to her?

I... "claim," Spiritual Israelite... I mean, it is quite obvious, really, that she was born again... or, in the words of Ezekiel (who quotes God Himself, of course)... that God sprinkled clean water on Lydia, cleaned her from all her uncleannesses, and from all her idols cleansed her, gave her a new heart... a new spirit He put within her... removed the heart of stone from her flesh and give her a heart of flesh, put His Spirit within her... some time prior ~ again, possibly immediately prior ~ to her hearing Paul's words. This is how God's assurance ~ the substance of things hoped for ~ and our conviction by the Spirit ~ faith (Hebrews 11:1) ~ comes to us, how we then have it, by hearing (Romans 10:17). This is our "quickening" (as used in the King James), His "making us alive in Christ," as Paul says in Ephesians 2 and Peter says in 1 Peter 1, by God, who "quickens us according to His Word" (Psalm 119:154) and His lovingkindness (Psalm 119:88); His quickening is associated with His tender mercy (Psalm 119:156), His righteousness (Psalm 119:40), and our joy (Psalm 85:6).

So to what you... "ask," here... <smile> ...her father was the devil some time prior to hearing the gospel, but really prior to her being born again of the Spirit. I would say that it is possible ~ though I think obviously not in Lydia's case ~ for all this (being born again and hearing the gospel) to be virtually simultaneous. In any case, still, the credit... and the glory... for our being born again and thus saved... and having this saving faith that we have... belongs only to God. Otherwise, again, God's grace is not really grace but something very different (Romans 11:6).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

Ahhh, except... "Scott-ism." Got it. <smile> I keed! I keed! <chuckles>

Everyone is influenced, on this very subject, one way or the other, even of they don't realize it. So... which one, exactly, I'm not sure, but... yes you dooooooo... <smile>

Cheeky, but no, there is One exception.

 

[ScottA]

Could you post the book or commentary where you read this crazy nonsense, as no verse in a real bible supports your bizarre post.

I have quoted the scriptures already. If I am to give you chapter and verse, which part are you calling "nonsense?"

 

[ScottA]

Agree. But as I have said many times, the real, central issue is not our will. There is... something in us... <smile> ...that drives our will. It always drives our will, and thereby we are caused to choose... one way or the other.

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, I actually addressed that...that something in us is our true identity (who we "are", not unlike God's ID is "I AM").

The good news is, it is possible for us to be born again of the spirit of God: "Many are called but few are chosen."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Systematically, if I may input my response here while not directed towards me, yes. All true genuine believers are regenerated, and regeneration precedes faith.

In your view, regeneration involves God regenerating someone's hardened heart to make it so that they will repent and believe? Is that not correct? If so, do you claim that Lydia's heart was regenerated already even before hearing the gospel?

Romans 1 emphasizes the glory of G-d is seen in the creative natural order, that is natural or general revelation opposed to special revelation (the biblical canon, not just the NT). Ephesians chapter 1 and 2 should clarify the ordo salutis to the point where there is no argument. Chime in if wanting to inquire more.

Romans 1:18-21 makes it clear that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. Calvinism gives man an excuse for that by saying he is totally depraved with total inability with hostility towards God from birth that he can't do anything about without being regenerated.

Consider this: should that make anybody that loves G-d bend a knee and say in utmost adoration, Soli Deo Gloria? Why? Because G-d transplanted that heart of stone for the heart after G-d like king David. That is, when we hadn't first loved G-d he loved us. G-d reached down in his "mysterious or secret will" for unknown and unmerited reasons and made that individual the object of His grace. G-d, in my own words, said, "I want that man." What power do any of us have to resist? (Psalm 8).

God wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Mark 2:16-17, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10, which is why He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world as a ransom for all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6). In your view, God only wants a select few to repent and to be saved and does not want anyone else to be saved and He is completely satisfied to leave the rest in their lost condition and content with allowing them to experience His wrath and eternal torment. So, you have Him punishing people for eternity for refusing to repent and suppressing the truth God made plain to them and for rejecting Christ despite them supposedly having no ability to repent or to accept Christ.

Because a single verse doesn't recap in a preamble, pages and pages of the ordo salutis don't prove that the systematic approach to the ordo salutis is incorrect in contrast to selectivism.

Well, you sure do live up to your username, I'll say that much.

I ask, and this doesn't need a response. Take a moment to pause and consider: what is the opposition to Soli Deo Gloria in the context of all these responses?
What is it in man that doesn't want to give up all glory to G-d?
Pride, arrogance, and sin? (Isaiah 14)
I'm not convicting; I am merely asking for self-examination.
Every doctrine should bend the knee and make the tongue profess the glory of G-d alone.
Not man!
And that's the weeping moment men become reformed or further Calvinist (monergism).
Even an Arminian sounds like a Calvinist on his knees in desperate prayer. Remember the great hymn by a Calvinist slave, "Amazing Grace."
Every believer sounds like a Calvinist in prayer, or that publican thanking G-d he isn't like that other man because he himself...
Soli Deo Gloria!?
Really consider the emphasis of the Calvinist debate. Calvinists convey Soli Deo Gloria, and what are opponents championing? Man? Why? What in man warrants recognition or merit?
Deep to deep.

Does someone who humbly admits that they can't save themselves while confessing that they are a sinner in need of God's mercy, like the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14, warrant merit for doing so? Of course not. This isn't about you saying that man can't merit his salvation while I am claiming that he can. No. Not at all. I'm saying God is love (1 John 4:8) and because of that He loves the world (John 3:16) and offers salvation to the world and everyone must choose to humbly accept it or to pridefully reject it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Cheeky, but no, there is One exception.

Well, I do admittedly have really nice cheeks... <chuckles>

But yeah, sure; everyone here at least claims to be a Christ-ist... <smile> That has no bearing, really on any one of the "isms" being discussed here... which, actually is better stated the opposite way, that none of the "isms" being discussed here has any real bearing on whether one is a "Christ-ist"... a Christian. The only thing really at issue here is whether one's soteriological understanding is correct or not. And if not... it's really okay. Really. It's okay. <smile> And whatever "bucket" one faills into... he is an 'ist of one kind or another. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, because in Acts 16:15 we read ~ quoting ~ "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul..." So, "opened," which is past tense... <smile> So, how far in advance of what was said by Paul the Lord did this we cannot say. Possibly immediately prior, but possibly further prior than that; we cannot know.

You misunderstood the question. For one thing, that does not say that the Lord regenerated her heart. As you so often do, you are reading things into the scripture that aren't there. But, what I was meaning for you to address is whether or not her heart had been regenerated before anyone came to preach the gospel to her. You are indicating here that you think Acts 16:15 refers to her heart being regenerated. And you claim to not know when even though the verse clearly implies that her heart was opened to pay attention to what Paul was preaching right then and there. So, the question is how did she become a worshiper of God even before that day without her heart having been regenerated? That's what I was intending to ask you.

I... "claim," Spiritual Israelite... I mean, it is quite obvious, really, that she was born again...

It's quite obvious, dear PinSeeker, that being born again is something that happens after someone puts their faith in Christ. Surely, she was not born again before the day Paul came to preach to her, yet she was already a worshiper of God before that day. How do you explain that when your belief is that regeneration involves God regenerating a hardened heart? A worshiper of God does not have a hardened heart.

or, in the words of Ezekiel (who quotes God Himself, of course)... that God sprinkled clean water on Lydia, cleaned her from all her uncleannesses, and from all her idols cleansed her, gave her a new heart... a new spirit He put within her... removed the heart of stone from her flesh and give her a heart of flesh, put His Spirit within her... some time prior ~ again, possibly immediately prior ~ to her hearing Paul's words.

Nah. You are twisting the words in Acts 16 to fit your doctrine. Clearly, when it talks about God opening her heart to pay attention to Paul, it's something He did right then and there to help her pay attention to what Paul was preaching so that she would not miss anything. Already being a worshiper of God before that, God knew she would understand and accept Paul's words as long as she actually paid attention to what he was saying, which the Lord helped her to do.

This is how God's assurance ~ the substance of things hoped for ~ and our conviction by the Spirit ~ faith (Hebrews 11:1) ~ comes to us, how we then have it, by hearing (Romans 10:17).

You say that faith comes by regeneration, which is something that happens quickly as an act of the Holy Spirit. But, faith coming by hearing the word of God/Christ can take a good amount of time to occur. God reached out "all day long" to the unbeileving Israelites in order to persuade them to believe the gospel (Romans 10:21). Faith does not come by regeneration, it comes by hearing the word, considering the word and deciding to believe in the word that is heard. Paul took many hours and multiple days to persuade people to believe the gospel (Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-4, Acts 28:23). If faith was by regeneration, as you claim, that there would be no need for hours and days of persuasion to convince people to believe.

This is our "quickening" (as used in the King James), His "making us alive in Christ," as Paul says in Ephesians 2 and Peter says in 1 Peter 1, by God, who "quickens us according to His Word" (Psalm 119:154) and His lovingkindness (Psalm 119:88); His quickening is associated with His tender mercy (Psalm 119:156), His righteousness (Psalm 119:40), and our joy (Psalm 85:6).

So to what you... "ask," here... <smile> ...her father was the devil some time prior to hearing the gospel, but really prior to her being born again of the Spirit. I would say that it is possible ~ though I think obviously not in Lydia's case ~ for all this (being born again and hearing the gospel) to be virtually simultaneous. In any case, still, the credit... and the glory... for our being born again and thus saved... and having this saving faith that we have... belongs only to God. Otherwise, again, God's grace is not really grace but something very different (Romans 11:6).

LOL. You are trying to tell me that the father of a worshiper of God was the devil. You cannot be serious.

 

[ScottA]

Well, I do admittedly have really nice cheeks... <chuckles>

But yeah, sure; everyone here at least claims to be a Christ-ist... <smile> That has no bearing, really on any one of the "isms" being discussed here... which, actually is better stated the opposite way, that none of the "isms" being discussed here has any real bearing on whether one is a "Christ-ist"... a Christian. The only thing really at issue here is whether one's soteriological understanding is correct or not. And if not... it's really okay. Really. It's okay. <smile> And whatever "bucket" one faills into... he is an 'ist of one kind or another. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

No, and you have missed my point.

Yes, 'isms, etc. are not the topic here--and that is why I declared having none.

As for 'isms" and the like, they are mere attachments to the teachings, studies, or following of men or God--mere man made titles, of men by men. Which is not at all what I was referring to and declaring. None of those may be an exception, and yet there is still One exception. Can you name it?

 

[Bombastic]

In your view, regeneration involves God regenerating someone's hardened heart to make it so that they will repent and believe? Is that not correct? If so, do you claim that Lydia's heart was regenerated already even before hearing the gospel?

That's correct, I already answered that. There's a difference between natural or general revelation and special revelation. The ordo salutis is the same from cover to cover.

Romans 1:18-21 makes it clear that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. Calvinism gives man an excuse for that by saying he is totally depraved with total inability with hostility towards God from birth that he can't do anything about without being regenerated.

That's not an excuse; that's the gospel.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Well, you sure do live up to your username, I'll say that much.

I am about to.

In your view, regeneration involves God regenerating someone's hardened heart to make it so that they will repent and believe? Is that not correct? If so, do you claim that Lydia's heart was regenerated already even before hearing the gospel?


Romans 1:18-21 makes it clear that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. Calvinism gives man an excuse for that by saying he is totally depraved with total inability with hostility towards God from birth that he can't do anything about without being regenerated.


God wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Mark 2:16-17, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10, which is why He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world as a ransom for all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6). In your view, God only wants a select few to repent and to be saved and does not want anyone else to be saved and He is completely satisfied to leave the rest in their lost condition and content with allowing them to experience His wrath and eternal torment. So, you have Him punishing people for eternity for refusing to repent and suppressing the truth God made plain to them and for rejecting Christ despite them supposedly having no ability to repent or to accept Christ.


Well, you sure do live up to your username, I'll say that much.


Does someone who humbly admits that they can't save themselves while confessing that they are a sinner in need of God's mercy, like the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14, warrant merit for doing so? Of course not. This isn't about you saying that man can't merit his salvation while I am claiming that he can. No. Not at all. I'm saying God is love (1 John 4:8) and because of that He loves the world (John 3:16) and offers salvation to the world and everyone must choose to humbly accept it or to pridefully reject it.

If I may, you shouldn't criticize anybody outside yourself. You need to examine yourself.

Well, you sure do live up to your username, I'll say that much.

And yes, here's living worthily, that is, maybe not in the case of your life where you never acknowledge all glory to G-d alone:
Ephesians 2:8 said by many parrots:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Whether this or that depends upon your spiritual Israel identity dependent upon pig translation; the "this or that" refers back to the entire ordo salutis in the narrow context as well as the broad systematic method.

Whether this or that verse, wheresoever, is about whosoever, read it and tell me what you have done. Oh mighty free will wielder in the name of Adam:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[e] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Now tell me, child of Satan, about your strength or will and what you're capable of.

Regeneration precedes faith:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course1 of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and [p] were by nature [q] children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 2 4 But3 God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Regeneration precedes faith; the timing is clear as day. Dead men can do nothing to save themselves. This is exegesis. Argue against it; no problem. I'd flunk you out of my class in a second, but you'll just pass it off as Calvinism being wrong. That verse that I exegeted highlights true regeneration, with verse 10 in Ephesians 2 referring to Ezekiel 36:25-27:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

But oh no! Not you, and you'll twist scriptures to justify your reprobate standing here, now, and in the future while claiming Christian identity or dysfunction. BECAUSE, YOU CANT GET AROUND YOUR PRIDE AND ARROGANCE. But oh no, you're animated by your soul and not the Spirit.
I blame identity dysfunction on people like you; you're a prime example of what it means to be a walking contradiction. But, ya believe you're this or that! Scripture isn't your standard of truth; you are! Confess and Repent!

This theology class is adjourned.

 

[Behold]

I have quoted the scriptures already. If I am to give you chapter and verse, which part are you calling "nonsense?"

Here is what you posted.
Show us where this confused nonsense is found in a Real Bible.

@ScottA wrote..

""""""Actually, the combination of "decision" and "has (judged)" means both are true--well kinda: We have freewill, but we decided "before." Which is to say, "in the twinkling of an eye" "before the world was""""""

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's correct, I already answered that. There's a difference between natural or general revelation and special revelation. The ordo salutis is the same from cover to cover.

When exactly do you think Lydia's heart was regenerated?

That's not an excuse; that's the gospel.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

You're not addressing what Romans 1:18-32 indicates. Calvinists say that man is born totally depraved with total inability, right? Romans 1:18-21 says that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. Why would they not have an excuse if they were totally depraved with a total inability to repent and believe from birth? Paul goes on to say that people BECAME fools and BECAME futile in their thinking while exchanging the truth that they knew for a lie and THEN God gave them over to depraved minds. They were not born that way and it's not talking about all people getting to that point, either. Paul uses homosexuals and those who worship created idols and such as examples of who he was talking about.

If I may, you shouldn't criticize anybody outside yourself. You need to examine yourself.

Why do you say this? I can certainly criticize someone if they are teaching falsehood.

And yes, here's living worthily, that is, maybe not in the case of your life where you never acknowledge all glory to G-d alone:
Ephesians 2:8 said by many parrots:

How are you giving glory to God here by pretending to be God yourself as if you know everything about me and what my intentions are and so on? Who are you to tell me that I don't acknowledge all glory to God alone? What glory do I give to myself by acknowledging that I'm nothing without Him and that I need Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in order to have the forgiveness of sins and the hope of eternal life?

Whether this or that depends upon your spiritual Israel identity dependent upon pig translation, the this or that refers back to the entire ordo salutis in the narrow context as well as the broad systematic method.

Are you incapable of speaking plainly or do you just choose not to do so?

Now tell me, child of Satan, about your strength or will and what you're capable of.

Now you're calling me "child of Satan"? May God have mercy on your soul for judging me. Are you not aware that you will be judged with the same measure that you judge others (Matthew 7:1-2)?

Regeneration precedes faith:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course1 of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and [p] were by nature [q] children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 2 4 But3 God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Nowhere does that say regeneration precedes faith. In John 1:12 it says that after someone receives/accepts and believes in Jesus Christ, then they become a born again child of God. Faith precedes regeneration. In Ephesians 1:12-13 it says that people first put their trust in Jesus Christ and then they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Surely, the sealing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit occur at the same time.

Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace through faith. Both God's grace and our faith precede salvation and salvation results from being born again. You have everything backwards.

Also, you don't understand what being dead in sins means. It has nothing to do with one's ability to repent and believe, as you imagine. It simply means someone is separated from a personal relationship with God because of their sins. But, Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick and in need of a physician and He calls them to repentance. He does not say they need to be regenerated first before being able to repent.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

All people are sinners (Romans 3:23). Therefore, Jesus calls all unregenerate sinners to repentance because all people have the ability to repent. If they didn't, then they'd have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

Regeneration precedes faith. Dead men can do nothing to save themselves. This is exegesis. Argue against it; no problem.

I argue against it using exegesis. You don't have a monopoly on the exegesis of scripture. There are so many scriptures that you are not taking into account here.

I'd flunk you out of my class in a second,

That means nothing to me. You clearly have no idea of what you're talking about and are not qualified to teach any meaningful class in relation to this topic.

but you'll just pass it off as Calvinism being wrong.

Because Calvinism contradicts many scriptures. Your view is based on your cherry picked scriptures that you take out of context while you have no explanation whatsoever for how to reconcile your doctrines with other scriptures.

That verse that I exegeted highlights true regeneration, with verse 10 in Ephesians 2 referring to Ezekiel 36:25-27:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

But oh no! Not you, and you'll twist scriptures to justify your reprobate standing here, now, and in the future while claiming Christian identity or dysfunction. BECAUSE, YOU CANT GET AROUND YOUR PRIDE AND ARROGANCE.

This theology class is adjourned.

You failed at teaching the class. You failed at playing God and judging me. You failed in every possible way because of your OWN PRIDE AND ARROGANCE. You even gave yourself a username that describes your pride and arrogance. LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is what you posted.
Show us where this confused nonsense is found in a Real Bible.

@ScottA wrote..

""""""Actually, the combination of "decision" and "has (judged)" means both are true--well kinda: We have freewill, but we decided "before." Which is to say, "in the twinkling of an eye" "before the world was""""""

No one in the world can make any sense out of that gibberish.

 

[PinSeeker]

You misunderstood the question.

No, I don't think I did. <smile> I mean I get that you think I did... <smile>

For one thing, that does not say that the Lord regenerated her heart.

Well, and neither did I, really. <smile> What I said was, the Lord opened her heart, and at least effectually that the Lord regenerating her heart, her quickening by the Spirit, her being born again of the Spirit, given this new spirit, give God's Spirit, had happened some time prior to ~ and how long prior we don't know ~ her hearing Paul's words. I explained this preemptively, because I knew something like this would be your objection ~ about, well, being born again, quickened by the Spirit, given this new spirit, even God's Spirit.

You are trying to tell me that the father of a worshiper of God was the devil.

No, I most certainly was not and am not. Yesm she was a worshiper of God, so therefore God was her Father; her father was no longer the devil. And that had been true for some time, but for how long we do not know.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

Here is what you posted.
Show us where this confused nonsense is found in a Real Bible.

@ScottA wrote..

""""""Actually, the combination of "decision" and "has (judged)" means both are true--well kinda: We have freewill, but we decided "before." Which is to say, "in the twinkling of an eye" "before the world was""""""

I am sure you could just look it all up. But this is for learning, and also for anyone looking on--so, sure, no problem--thanks for asking!

The crux of what I stated is a reconciling of Joel chapter 3 (as defined in the original language), specifically the name "Jehoshaphat" given by God as synonymous with "the valley of decision", making it relevant to our "decision" of "freewill", which brings Judgement into the equation, the sentence of which was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8), before time, or "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52) referring to, or defining the end as from the beginning.

Which does indeed lay it all out correctly...but one may have to read on in Revelation 13:9 to understand that it cannot even be known, except by "If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Which is a problem for many who do not hear or see "what the Spirit says." In other words, faith and belief are required before such things are spiritually navigable and revealed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're an idiot.
That's on the scale of idiot, moron, and imbecile.

Translation: You have NOTHING to refute what I said. All you can do is act like a little child and call me names. You're just another babe in Christ who has a lot to learn.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 states clearly what occurs at regeneration that precedes... Every online Nicodemus today has the right to a keyboard and digital platform, I know! Right!
I gladly hit the ignore button on your profile.

Oh no. How will I continue on without somoene who I just came across today who is unable to defend his doctrine beyond calling people's names? Hopefully, I will recover from this somehow...

You'll never stop defending your reprobate nature unless an act of G-d precedes any preconceived confession and repentance.
Undoubtedly, you won't be edified, whether in life or doctrine, should you be found delinquent.
Beat your chest, monkey boy.
You fail biblical literacy, and the English translation is translated into a 3rd-grade reading level.
Obviously, you want to change that efficiency rating.

I appreciate you revealing your true colors here. You need to ask God (not G-d) what has caused you to be such a judgmental person like this and ask Him to help you become a mature Christian rather than an immature one who can't handle disagreement and runs away when he can't defend his doctrine.

 

[Behold]

The crux of what I stated is a reconciling of Joel chapter 3 (as defined in the original language), specifically the name "Jehoshaphat" given by God as synonymous with "the valley of decision", making it relevant to our "decision" of "freewill", which brings Judgement into the equation, the sentence of which was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8), before time, or "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52) referring to, or defining the end as from the beginning.

Brother,

What you wrote is so utterly confused that some who read it, are going to become dizzy.

So, let me ask you this.......what are you trying to prove........and could you explain it,...... not using sentences that are completely nosensical?

Just simply explain what you are trying to prove., and im assuming it has something to do with free will and the Christian, or perhaps its just related to humanity in general.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I don't think I did. <smile> I mean I get that you think I did... <smile>

Typical response from you. Deny, deny, deny.

Well, and neither did I, really. <smile> What I said was, the Lord opened her heart, and at least effectually that the Lord regenerating her heart, her quickening by the Spirit, her being born again of the Spirit, given this new spirit, give God's Spirit, had happened some time prior to ~ and how long prior we don't know ~ her hearing Paul's words.

So, if she had been a worshiper of God for many years prior, which is entirely possible, then you would say she had been regenerated many years prior to hearing the gospel preached by Paul? If so, I don't think this is what a Calvinist typically believes. I think most Calvinists would say her heart was regenerated at the time Paul came to preach to her and the reference to God opening her heart is a reference to her heart being regenerated at that time.

I explained this preemptively, because I knew something like this would be your objection ~ about, well, being born again, quickened by the Spirit, given this new spirit, even God's Spirit.

Uh huh.

No, I most certainly was not and am not. Yesm she was a worshiper of God, so therefore God was her Father; her father was no longer the devil. And that had been true for some time, but for how long we do not know.

Hmmmm......