ScottA
Well-Known Member
For like treatment, Jesus said even to Peter "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Free Will
- Thread starter Dan Clarkston
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Well, how many times do you want me to... well, dismiss your saying that for what it is (rubbish)? <smile> I just don't... "understand" it in the way you want me to, because... it's wrong. <smile>
Right, because you change the definition into something entirely different that what it is, verbatim, in Scripture. See below...
<eye roll>
No, it's not. That's the direct result of God's assurance ~ which Hebrews one directly says faith is... the very definition given to us by God through the writer of Hebrews... being given to us. Hebrews cannot be misunderstood:
- "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (ESV, NASB, LSB, RSV)
- "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (KJV, NKJV, WEB)
- "Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen." (CDB)
LOL! I agree. But he does give it to you, just like, well, only I can assure you of things that only I can grant anyone. Only God can assure you that you are His, that your sins have been forgiven, that you have eternal life, that He has given you His Spirit... yeah, all those things.
<eye roll>
Well, it would be a complete joke to suggest that, yes. <smile> But yeah, I've... attempted... no such thing...
<smile> I just got you all riled up. <chuckles> Not that I've meant to, but yeah...
He does, I agree, but He does not call all people to His salvation. Yet again, God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. This call is irrefutably limited in scope, limited to those vessels of His mercy.
No, I agree. But if God gets what He wants... if, as Job says, God's purposes cannot be thwarted, then what does that tell you about His offer?
Hey, good on you for citing Matthew 22 in particular. Let's couple that with Romans 9. Jesus says, "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). And Paul says, ""<smile> there,
<eye roll>
<eye roll>
Right, and the will is not the issue at all, it's the heart, as I have repeatedly ~ to you and others ~ said. To make it about the will is missing the point entirely. The will always follows the heart, the spirit, the person's inner self. And unless he or she is born again, he or she will not ~ will not, not "cannot" ~ accept God's very free, to all, offer of salvation.
<eye roll>
Right, but why doesn't He? Why then is not everyone saved? What first does it depend on? Remember (yet again), God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Exodus 33, Romans 9). And so, for any one person, being one of God's elect "depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). What you (and other like-minded folks... in the footsteps of Pelagius and Arminius) are doing is ~ in effect ~ placing an obligation on God's part for extending His grace, which ~ again, in effect ~ makes His grace, which is unmerited favor, out to be something other than grace entirely. And really robbing Him of His own free will, actually, you know, as if that could possibly be done, anyway...
<eye roll>
<sigh> Same old, same old... Over and over and over again...
Grace and peace to you, SI.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Stop trying to equate yourself with Christ. You have severe delusions of grandeur.
So, you are saying you are Jesus now?
No, you have not.
LOL. Oh, really? Show me where it is written.
Yes, I have revealed myself as someone who can see through your nonsense.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You're not Jesus and Satan has no control over me whatsoever. Other than that, good reference.
Behold
Well-Known Member
So thats your problem.
You are using 4 of the known worst translations.....to try to teach your nonsense. @PinSeeker
Listten...
There is a reason that the word SUBSTANCE is the correct Translation...........and not "assurance".
A.) Faith is a SUBSTANCE......that is found in your HEART.
Read the correct Translation, and you'll be able, perhaps, to recognize that "faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for"..........is not anything connected to....>"faith is the assurance"
See, our FAITH is not our Assurance........its our TRUST in what we can't SEE...........so, this is "substance"........that is "trust".
The Assurance is that God is FAITHFUL.........so, that is your Assurance.......not faith.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yet, you have no ability to prove it wrong, so just nothing but empty words from you, as always.
You don't understand what the scriptures mean, as you've proven over and over again. You remove man's responsibility to humble himself and place his faith and trust in Jesus by saying that faith is given to people as if we are nothing more than robots who are unable to be reasoned with and persuaded to believe. Yet, that is exactly how scripture describes people coming to faith. Paul spent days reasoning with people from the scriptures and persuading them to believe (Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-4). Your doctrine can't make any sense of that.
LOL! If people can only believe if God gives them faith, then that gives people an excuse for not having faith. But, no one has an excuse for not repenting of their sins and not having faith (Romans 1:18-21). You continue to ignore this.
Deny, deny, deny. It's pretty much all you do.
Excuse me for having a disdain for false teaching that blatantly misrepresents the character of God. I guess that shouldn't bother me? It's just God, right? Why should we care if He is misrepresented, right? Whatever, says PinSeeker. Nothing really matters to you. And why would it? You're just a robot.
He most certainly does. You know, when you don't understand Jesus's parables that says a lot about your level of discernment. You clearly have no understanding whatsoever of the parable of the wedding invitation in Matthew 22:1-13. You make it into a big joke where God offers salvation to people who are unable to accept it unless He forces them to accept it.
You think God predestined people before the foundation of the world to either be vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy. That is not at all what scripture teaches. Pharaoh was given by Paul as an example of what he was talking about there. Pharaoh hardened his own heart well before God ever did, so that made him a candidate to be used as a vessel of wrath for God's purposes. That does not mean that Pharaoh never had the ability to repent and believe at any time in his life before that. Nowhere does it say that certain individual vessels of wrath like Pharaoh or vessels of mercy are prepared from birth or before the foundation of the world.
God doesn't always get what He wants because He gives man free will. Here is a clear example where He didn't get what He wanted because of making man responsible to choose with His free will...
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;
Yes, the parable that you have no understanding of whatsoever. The one where you think God is making a disingenuous offer of salvation to most people. Yeah, that's the one.
Y
Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual salvation. It has to do with the fact that God does not just offer salation to the Jews, but also the Gentiles. You don't even understand that Paul asummarized what he had previously been saying in Romans 9:22-24. His point all along was to show that God decided to bring salvation to the Gentiles and make them His people as well. Many Jews had a problem with that, but who were they to question God? That is what Paul was mainly talking about in Romans 9, but you don't understand that.
The will and the heart are closely connected. What a person wills to do comes from the heart. How do you think you are proving anything here?
So, you do get it. Hello? So what is your point then?
Just one little problem here. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. If this was the case, then man would have an excuse for refusing to repent and believe while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, but he has no excuse for that. Why do you believe in a doctrine that gives man an excuse for that which he has no excuse? It's ridiculous.
Hello? What is this thread about? did you forget? It's because man has free will and God holds man accountable for choosing to repent and belive or not. You think Jesus bashes down the door of our hearts and lets Himself in. That's not the case. He knocks on the door and requires people to open the door and let Him in.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Remember (yet again) that God wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32), so He does not unconditionally have mercy on some and not the rest, as you falsely believe. He requires man to humble himself in order to receive His mercy (Luke 18:9-14). You think God has to humble people in order for them to receive mercy, but Jesus said "for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
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Nah, you just foist that on me. And Calvin, and Calvinists... <sigh>
It's not "total inability" at all. At least not in the wooden sense that you say that. Which is funny, because you say it doesn't have anything to do with not being able to do anything good at all, but then you say it does, which is... curious... But yeah, I agree that it's absolutely false, but so is your charge here against Calvinism and the understanding of Calvin and Calvinists. Which is funny because, time and time again, you create these strawman arguments, sometimes even in the same breath as accusing me of the same, which is also... curious..
<eye roll> The premise is wrong, so that makes this wrong, too...
Just responding to several people at once. In order, Behold, you, and Dan... If it bothers you, SI, I don't care. <smile>
<eye roll>
______________________________________________________________________________
<chuckles>
<eye roll>
<chuckles>
The Greek word ~ πίστις (pistis) ~ used in Hebrews 11:1 is accurately translated to all those things... assurance, substance, title deed, even proof... it conveys all those ideas.
So... blood? <smile> No, "faith is the substance of what is hoped for"... that's verbatim... so, what we hope for.
In your opinion. I mean yeah, I get that... It's both, and the others I pointed out, too; they're all correct... complementary.
Well, again, it's given to us by God, and then we can rest in it.
And you provide this substance ~ which you can only hope for; that's part of the definition ~ for yourself?
Grace and peace to you both. Especially grace...
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nah, you just foist that on me. And Calvin, and Calvinists... <sigh>
It's not "total inability" at all. At least not in the wooden sense that you say that. Which is funny, because you say it doesn't have anything to do with not being able to do anything good at all, but then you say it does, which is... curious... But yeah, I agree that it's absolutely false, but so is your charge here against Calvinism and the understanding of Calvin and Calvinists. Which is funny because, time and time again, you create these strawman arguments, sometimes even in the same breath as accusing me of the same, which is also... curious..
<eye roll> The premise is wrong, so that makes this wrong, too...
Just responding to several people at once. In order, Behold, you, and Dan... If it bothers you, SI, I don't care. <smile>
<eye roll>
______________________________________________________________________________
<chuckles>
<eye roll>
<chuckles>
The Greek word ~ πίστις (pistis) ~ used in Hebrews 11:1 is accurately translated to all those things... assurance, substance, title deed, even proof... it conveys all those ideas.
So... blood? <smile> No, "faith is the substance of what is hoped for"... that's verbatim... so, what we hope for.
In your opinion. I mean yeah, I get that... It's both, and the others I pointed out, too; they're all correct... complementary.
Well, again, it's given to us by God, and then we can rest in it.
And you provide this substance ~ which you can only hope for; that's part of the definition ~ for yourself?
I'll await your response with your opinion of Judge Judy. LOL.
Joshua understood that man has free will and the capacity to choose whom to serve. It's unfortunate that you don't.
Joshua 24:14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of ]the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
In your humble opinion. Yeah cool.
In your humble opinion. Yeah cool.
No...
But yet... <smile> ..."by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourself..." (Ephesians 2:4-8). It is literally impossible for anyone with an intelligence quotient over, say, three, to misconstrue this...
In your humble opinion. Yeah cool.
Uh... let's cite Romans 1 verbatim and compare it to what you say here: "...what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." The reason they have no excuse for not acknowledging God as God and worshiping Him as Creator rather than creation is that God has clearly shown them Who He is and everything about Him. Yes, "so they are without excuse." Goodness gracious.
<eye roll> And I say that what you say of all these things sells God short, really... in effect making Him out to be far less than He is and robbing Him of His glory and splendor. Which can't really be done, anyway, and is not your intent. But it is the effect.
No, I just don't give a darn whether it does or not. <smile>
<eye roll>
<eye roll>
Regarding the vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, like Jacob and Esau, respectively, at least "before they were born, before any had done anything good or bad, so that His purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls..." (Romans 9:11)
"...(God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..." Ephesians 1:4-5).
There's only one way to read and understand these things. I'm not sure how you can continue to refute them. But so it is... Yeah, deny, deny, deny, which is... so, so ironic...
Hmmm. As I have cited before many times ~ as Job finally acknowledges, "(God's purposes cannot be thwarted" (Job 42:2). And God Himself says, through Isaiah, "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:10-11).
I don't know how you can continue to deny these things. I really don't. You can't, yet you do, again and again. Oh well...
Right, as I've said many, many times, except that it's always because of the heart, because of what the heart is at any given time. So Who is the one that changes the heart of stone to a heart of flesh, SI? Does man change his own heart from stone to flesh? God, through Ezekiel (11:19-20, 36:26-27) says, verbatim, "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules." That's God, word for word. Not me, not John Calvin, not any Calvinist, but God. Do you believe God or not? Because that's Who you're really arguing with...
<chuckles>
<sigh>
Grace and peace...
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Bombastic
Member
Meanwhile, mainstream media reports two sides, one for G-d and the other for man.
Who will win and become the undisputed champion.
Who will win and become the undisputed champion.
She's a hoot, that's for sure... <chuckles>
I'll await your response with your opinion of Judge Judy. LOL.
As do I. But again, the question is whether the man will or not. And, if left to himself, which is the case in the case of those who God gives up to their own selfish passions and desires (Romans 1), they will not. They could, because they know Who God is, but they will not. And this would be the case with all men, but for God's grace, His mercy and compassion, which, again, He gives to whom He gives it.
Grace and peace.
Bombastic
Member
Yeah you do, T in Tulip. While I appreciate your zeal, that "ignore" button is much easier to hit. But if ya want to hit it, clear it with the mods first, and I'll go down and take that dead dog's head off.
2 Samuel 16:9 no flattery, I'll consider it an honor to take that dead dog's head off.
Ya know, I first loved the 16th-century language of Calvin, real men, in contrast to these Gen Zers that 20+% identify as transgender.
Calvin kept mentioning that dead dog in his writings. I was like, "Who is that dead dog?"
It was somebody that mentioned him from his book, like a pulpit without opportunity to refute it.
Calvin never likewise mentioned the person's name.
I use the ignore option on this board, and I am chuckling at your responses @PinSeeker
Ya can't as a Calvinist regenerate anybody. You've got to leave them to their reprobate nature.
Admit it, you can't save anybody; it's not in your power. You have no control over the destiny of others.
You can't "WILL" your desire over anybody. Come on! Admit it!
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No, I don't, Bombastic. Again, the term total depravity can be very confusing... it's a bit of a misnomer, unless understood properly, particularly with regard to the proper sense in which one can or can't do something.
I don't ignore. It's kinda stupid, really. <smile>
<smile>
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... Yeah no man can save any man, that's for sure...
Grace and peace to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This shows that you are making zero effort to follow what I'm saying. You are not even trying, man. Why do you take part in these discussions when you are only willing to put in minimal effort to understand the topic and to consider what I'm saying? What is hard to understand about the fact that if someone can only have faith if God gives them faith, that it then gives those who don't have faith an excuse for not having faith? How can you not understand what I'm saying here? It's very simple. But, all you can say is "What?!". LOL.
And? Why do you give them an excuse for not believing in God and worshiping Him because you say that people can only have faith if God gives it to them? What better excuse can they have except that they don't worship God because they were not able to do so due to God not giving them the faith to do so?
Absolute nonsense. God is love (1 John 4:8). You don't believe that. You believe that God is partially love and partially hate and/or indifference. The God who is love, whose character your defame with your doctrine, loves everyone in the whole world (John 3:16) to the point where He sent His Son to die for the sins of everyone in the whole world (1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6). He did that because He genuinely wants all people in the whole world to be saved and to receive His mercy (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10, Romans 11:30-32). But, you don't believe that. And, since He genuinely wants all people to be saved and provided for everyone's salvation through His Son's sacrifice, that is why He calls on everyone to repent and believe and accept His offer of salvation (Matthew 22:1-13, Ezekiel 33:11, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Titus 2:11, etc.).
Yes, that's why you said something about it, right? LOL. That's what you do when you don't care about something. Right? LOL.
You are butchering that text. You never understand context. That verse is about the election of the nation of Israel to be the one through which salvation would come by way of the Messiah. It is not about individual election. You put so little effort into determining the context of scripture.
Romans 9:11 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
You didn't bother to look up the Old Testament references here which have NOTHING to do with individual election to salvation.
Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”
See this? Romans 9:11-13 has to do with two nations that would come from Jacob and Esau. It has nothing to do with the individual election of Jacob to salvation. That is utter nonsense and is a case of taking the passage completely out of context. You take so much scripture out of context, that I can't even keep up with it. Why do you put so little effort into seeing the context of scripture? You have to dig deeper than the surface to find the truth, but you won't do it. God elected for salvation to come through the nation that came from Jacob (Israel) rather than the nation that would come form Esau (Edom). And, of course, that's exactly what happened since Jesus obviously descended from Jacob's line and not Esau's.
LOL! Such ignorance. No, there's clearly more than one way since your way is the wrong way. The right way to read that is that God chose before the foundation of the world that whoever would believe in Jesus Christ should be holy and blameless before Him. He did not choose specific individuals to believe in Christ as you falsely believe.
You are very funny. You are not addressing ANY of my points. All you can do is read from your script. You are the denier here. That's for certain.
LOL. I will always deny your false understanding of scripture. Always. How interesting that you are unable to differentiate between God's purposes and His desires. Clearly, passages like Matthew 23:37-38 show that His desires can be thwarted. But, you can't even bring yourself to comment on that passage. His purposes can't be thwarted, but His desires can. His purpose was to send His Son to die for the sins of everyone in the whole world. that could not be thwarted. But, His desire for all people to repent and accept His Son can be thwarted, as passages like Matthew 23:37-38 prove.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Two delusional peas in a pod. How nice. Your arrogance is your downfall. You can't hope to understand the truth while you think you know it all. You know NOTHING.
LOL. You use the ignore option because you are AFRAID to debate someone who actually knows what he's talking about. You're probably used to debating people who never read the Bible. You are INCAPABLE of defending your doctrine and that's why you RUN AWAY.
Bombastic
Member
The same to you, Bombastic. Maybe a big part of the problem with some, here, is that they don't really understand what it means... or just haven't given it much thought, maybe... that "in Him..." ~ in God ~ "...we live and move and have our being" (Paul, in Acts 17:28), and that we can "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Paul again in Philippians 2:12-13). It can be kind of difficult to wrap one's head around, for sure, but understandable nonetheless. So it is.
Grace and peace to all.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Use your God given free will to choose this day whether 1) to believe in the false doctrines of Calvinism that portray God as a disingenuous Dictator who plays games with His pawns by giving most of them the false impression that He cares about them while offering them salvation after which He reveals that He actually hates them and has no desire for them to be saved or 2) to believe the truth taught in the Bible which is that God is love (1 John 4:8) and wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10) and genuinely offers salvation to all people (Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11), as He proved by having His Son die for the sins of all people (1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, those of us who believe God requires people to humble themselves, while admitting that they are hopeless sinners who need His mercy and forgiveness (Luke 18:9-14), are clearly trying to promote the idea that we can earn our own salvation. As everyone knows, when you humbly accept a gift you can then take credit for receiving it and boast about it. Right?
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