How Confidant Are You Being Saved?

[mailmandan]

"works are forbidden"

verses

"works are required"

((works are forbidden))

eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Keep going. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Galatians 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

((works are required))

eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Required to walk in for believers BECAUSE we are saved but not in order to become saved.

how do you solve this contradiction in scripture?

Not saved by works but saved FOR good works is not a contradiction. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

the solution: "initial the grace of justification"!

Initially not saved by works but ultimately saved by works? From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

Better have a spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine. Sadly, many have an outward connection only with no spiritual life.

nothing of merit or value in God's eyes! nothing spiritual or supernatural, nothing meriting eternal salvation!

phil 4:13 with Christ? all things!

So, you your own personal definition of non-meritorious works?

union

By the grace of justification received by faith and baptism we have union with God thru Christ, in the communion of saints, empowered by grace and life in the spirit to attain to eternal salvation on glory!

Union with Christ is through faith which is signified in baptism.

Our good works after we receive the grace of justification are transformed by grace and performed in grace united with Christ and given life of the spirit because of God's grace operating in us!

So, we are robots who sit back while God's grace produces non-meritorious works through us?

we do not possess eternal salvation in this life, but the grace of God that must be increased by good works (mt 7:7 mt 26:41 ;2 pet 3:18) and can be lost by deadly sin! (Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1-4 gal 5:19-21 gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20)

Spoken by a true works-salvationist. So, we do not possess eternal salvation in this life? We possess salvation from the PENALTY of sin (justification) in this life, awaiting salvation from the PRESENCE of sin in the next life (glorification). *John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

mk 10:30
...in the world to come eternal life.

John 4:36
...gathereth fruit unto life eternal:

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life...

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

More confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and justification with glorification.

 

[faithhopecharity]

I see that you continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'descriptive' passages of scripture. That is a common error which is made by works-salvationists. If one reads Romans 2:6-7 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, which certainly tickles your ears. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

patients
continuance in well doing
seeking

are all works not faith alone!

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

I see that you continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'descriptive' passages of scripture. That is a common error which is made by works-salvationists. If one reads Romans 2:6-7 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, which certainly tickles your ears. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

why do some go to everlasting punishment?

why do some enter eternal salvation?

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

I see that you continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'descriptive' passages of scripture. That is a common error which is made by works-salvationists. If one reads Romans 2:6-7 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, which certainly tickles your ears. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

you base alot on eph 2 so lets see what it is about!

what are the possibilities?

a) the general redemption

b) our personal salvation

eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

quickend or brought to life

brought to life in grace Jn 1:16

meaning that general redemption by which Christ makes our justification possible

eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:9 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 not works

refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ without our participation "works"

redemption is a part of the process of salvation so it is identified as salvation or the salvation in the past tense

eph 2:8 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 all use the past tense of salvation or "saved" all refer to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us!

eph 2:8 excludes our participation in the general redemption "not of yourselves"!

eph 2:8 titus 3:5 & 2 tim 1:9 all refer to the general redemption, it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

not our personal salvation but the general redemption!


redemption and justification are not salvation, but parts in the process of salvation!

thks

 

[mailmandan]

patients
continuance in well doing
seeking

are all works not faith alone!

thks

They are works produced from faith.
That is 'descriptive' of children of God.
Faith in Jesus Christ alone saves (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and good works follow. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

why do some go to everlasting punishment?

why do some enter eternal salvation?

thks

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance. It's obvious the sheep had faith and the goats did not.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that was manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status and a lack of love indicates otherwise: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

 

[mailmandan]

you base alot on eph 2 so lets see what it is about!

what are the possibilities?

a) the general redemption

b) our personal salvation

eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

quickend or brought to life

brought to life in grace Jn 1:16

meaning that general redemption by which Christ makes our justification possible

eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:9 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 not works

refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ without our participation "works"

redemption is a part of the process of salvation so it is identified as salvation or the salvation in the past tense

eph 2:8 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 all use the past tense of salvation or "saved" all refer to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us!

eph 2:8 excludes our participation in the general redemption "not of yourselves"!

eph 2:8 titus 3:5 & 2 tim 1:9 all refer to the general redemption, it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

not our personal salvation but the general redemption!

redemption and justification are not salvation, but parts in the process of salvation!

thks

Word salad of confusion.

 

[faithhopecharity]

It defeats the purpose of grace and also you boasting in your works.

Not according to Ephesians 2:8-10. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works.You have it backwards.

We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith/saved by grace through faith, not works and created in Christ Jesus FIRST (Ephesians 2:5-9) then UNTO/FOR good works that we should walk in them. You have the tail walking the dog.The cart before the horse.

Saved by grace through faith, not works NOW (saved from the PENALTY of sin - justification) saved from the PRESENCE of sin - glorification) AFTER. It''s not uncommon for work-salvationists, to conflate justification with glorification.

Descriptive of children of God.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

Eternal life is not a reward, but a gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) Which book of the Bible did Augustine write?

You need the quote God's infallible Word and not fallible writings by fallible men.

I see that you conflare the gift of eternal life with rewards. That is a common error made by works-salvationists.

boasting on what basis

grace comes before faith and works

grace empowers faith and works

grace completes faith and works

all glory is to God and His grace!

Amen?

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

phil 4:13 with Christ? all things!

 

[mailmandan]

boasting on what basis

grace comes before faith and works

grace empowers faith and works

grace completes faith and works

all glory is to God and His grace!

Amen?

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

phil 4:13 with Christ? all things!

You cannot have it both ways.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[faithhopecharity]

They are works produced from faith.
That is 'descriptive' of children of God.
Faith in Jesus Christ alone saves (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and good works follow. (Ephesians 2:10)

eph 2:10 say created for good works not saved for them

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Word salad of confusion.

your reformation tradition is more important than truth!

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

You cannot have it both ways.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

begun in grace

so works are not considered works

 

[mailmandan]

eph 2:10 say created for good works not saved for them

thks

AFTER having been saved by grace through faith, not works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) then created in Christ Jesus FOR good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Are we saved to sit and do no good works or are we saved to serve and walk in good works?

 

[mailmandan]

your reformation tradition is more important than truth!

thks

Typical wise crack from a thoroughly indoctrinated Roman Catholic.

 

[mailmandan]

begun in grace

so works are not considered works

Still trying to have it both ways. Let the boasting in works begin!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

 

[PS95]

This is a question I hate. Advocates say you should be 100% confidant but that doesn't seem humble to me.
How confidant are you? What does that say about your humility?

I suppose in your mind- John was not humble and he taught us not to be humble..

1 John 5
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
-------------------

Thing is- you can and will know when you do have life in the Son Of God.
This has zero to do with humility since you did nothing to earn life. <-- That is where humility comes in.

Where is my Christ denying buddy @Wrangler now? Does this help?

 

[faithhopecharity]

You cannot have it both ways.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

natural works not supernatural works!

 

[faithhopecharity]

Still trying to have it both ways. Let the boasting in works begin!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

if is not descriptive!

if involves a choice!

not automatic perseverance!

thks

ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God within all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:13 (3) three things are eternal; faith, hope and charity and the greatest is charity.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 tim 5:12 lost faith
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth

 

[faithhopecharity]

Still trying to have it both ways. Let the boasting in works begin!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

a disciple without works is impossible!

thks

 

[mailmandan]

natural works not supernatural works!

Works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc..). Paul covers all the bases. There is no saved by "these" works and just got "those" works.