Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

If Paul had believed that all ethnic Israel would be saved, he would have been beyond ecstatic.

But he wasn't, and we've seen the distinctions that he draws between the Israel that will be saved and the Israel that will not be saved.

The difference being between faithfulness and obedience, and unfaithfulness and disobedience.

A microcosm of the entirety of humanity.

I sincerely believe that when Christians position themselves into this severe dichotomy for understanding, of how it is that "not all of Israel is Israel" and yet we also read that "all of Israel shall be saved", it is all due to the fact that neither of the christian positions are understanding who the symbolic 144,000 of the nation of Israel truly are.

The 144k has nothing to do with the NC. but rather everything to do with the OC. It is from "under the altar" of the OC. that the 144,000 originate from. Mal. 3:16-18; Rev. 6:9-11.
The 144k of OC Israel were each "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of Promise [white robe] upon the day when Christ was "glorified" in His resurrection.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [permanently] given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified [resurrected].)

In other words, the symbolic number of the 144,000 are from ALL of the tribes of OC. Israel of faith, who lived and died in faith "under the altar" of OC. Israel.

Now, during this present Age of God's Grace, those of Israel who are Born again through faith in Jesus, AFTER His resurrection, they are now OF THE Great Multitude, along with the Gentiles who have also believed.

So yes, in that construct, I believe that all mature Christains who are Born again, do understand that both those of Israel and those of the Gentile nations, who have accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior are indeed the fulfilment of the words: "and so shall all of Israel be saved"
Rom. 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved [meaning both Jew and Gentile now have equal opportunity to enter into God's plan of Salvation]: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And for that, WE ALL DO KNOW that the Deliverer Jesus HAS COME!

 

[CTK]

I sincerely believe that when Christians position themselves into this severe dichotomy for understanding, of how it is that "not all of Israel is Israel" and yet we also read that "all of Israel shall be saved", it is all due to the fact that neither of the christian positions are understanding who the symbolic 144,000 of the nation of Israel truly are.

The 144k has nothing to do with the NC. but rather everything to do with the OC. It is from "under the altar" of the OC. that the 144,000 originate from. Mal. 3:16-18; Rev. 6:9-11.
The 144k of OC Israel were each "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of Promise [white robe] upon the day when Christ was "glorified" in His resurrection.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [permanently] given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified [resurrected].)

In other words, the symbolic number of the 144,000 are from ALL of the tribes of OC. Israel of faith, who lived and died in faith "under the altar" of OC. Israel.

Now, during this present Age if God's Grace, those of Israel who are Born again through faith in Jesus, AFTER His resurrection, they are now OF THE Great Multitude, along with the Gentiles who have also believed.

I am not sure I see Revelation making the connections you are making. Please consider -

Revelation 6 does not identify the souls under the altar as the 144,000. They are described as people who were slain for the word of God and their testimony. Revelation 7 then introduces 144,000 servants who are sealed before judgment is released upon the earth.

Likewise, the white robes given to the martyrs are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit. Revelation normally uses white garments to represent righteousness, purity, victory, or vindication, while the 144,000 are specifically sealed upon their foreheads.

John 7:39 teaches that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified, but it does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were then posthumously sealed and numbered as the 144,000.

The timing in Revelation 7 seems especially important. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds are released and are called “the servants of our God.” That sounds like preparation for a coming work or trial, rather than simply identifying Old Covenant believers who had already died.

So I am not sure the text itself establishes that:

the souls under the altar are the 144,000,​

​

their white robes are the Holy Spirit’s seal,​

​

or the 144,000 consist exclusively of faithful Israelites who died before the cross.​

 

[PinSeeker]

The 144k has nothing to do with the NC. but rather everything to do with the OC. It is from "under the altar" of the OC. that the 144,000 originate from. Mal. 3:16-18; Rev. 6:9-11.

Interesting... Here's how I understand it, Earburner. <smile>

The whole of Revelation is about the time from Christ's life on earth to the time He returns. "After this" is the setting, as John says at that outset of his visions in Revelation 4:1, and this is analogous... synonymous with what the writer of Hebrews says in the first chapter, verse 2, of that epistle... "these last days." So it is absolutely about the New Covenant period...

And it's circular, as all of John's writings are, circling back over the same things, in the case of Revelation describing this period in different ways seven times over.

And just on the subject of the New Covenant, Jesus is the New Covenant, the final and full/complete iteration of God's everlasting covenant... God's promises to Adam and Noah (life), Abraham (descendants/nation and land), Moses (the law), and David (a King), all point to and are finally full revealed in the Person of Christ Jesus.

So Revelation 6:11, "...each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been"... refers to the exact same group Paul is referring to in Romans 11:25-26, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." And then in Revelation 7, what John "sees"... and tells us of are two aspects about God's Israel:

• the first from in verses 1-8, the true Jewish heritage, regardless of ethnicity, of the complete people of God... the fullness of God's Israel
• the second in 9-17, the total number of the complete people of God, which is actually an innumerable multitude ~ of the same group of people... the complete people of God.

Your citation of Malachi 3 is a good one, but I don't think I would say the 144,000 "originated" from there...

...all mature Christains who are Born again, do understand that both those of Israel and those of the Gentile nations, who have accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior are indeed the fulfilment of the words: "and so shall all of Israel be saved"
Rom. 11

Right. Absolutely.

...WE ALL DO KNOW that the Deliverer Jesus HAS COME!

Absolutely. And will return. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

I am not sure I see Revelation making the connections you are making. Please consider -

Revelation 6 does not identify the souls under the altar as the 144,000. They are described as people who were slain for the word of God and their testimony. Revelation 7 then introduces 144,000 servants who are sealed before judgment is released upon the earth.

Likewise, the white robes given to the martyrs are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit. Revelation normally uses white garments to represent righteousness, purity, victory, or vindication, while the 144,000 are specifically sealed upon their foreheads.

John 7:39 teaches that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified, but it does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were then posthumously sealed and numbered as the 144,000.

The timing in Revelation 7 seems especially important. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds are released and are called “the servants of our God.” That sounds like preparation for a coming work or trial, rather than simply identifying Old Covenant believers who had already died.

So I am not sure the text itself establishes that:

the souls under the altar are the 144,000,​

​

their white robes are the Holy Spirit’s seal,​

​

or the 144,000 consist exclusively of faithful Israelites who died before the cross.​

Unfortunately, church-ianity has everyone locked up into the belief that all of the book of Revelation is only about the future! Well,.... indeed it is,... but BEGINNING in the day of Jesus' ministry to us, while in his mortal flesh.
Please take a good look at Mat. 27:50-54. There is MUCH going on there, that even church-ianity does not know what to do with it.

Here is the problem that many Christians do not understand:
Israel of faith, while "under the altar" of the OC. never had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor had they partaken in the Gift of Eternal life.
Therefore, though many of those saints of the OC. lived and died, by the "rememberance" of God [Mal. 3:16-18], THEY WERE STILL WAITING for the Promise that was to come. And that He did, in the Day of Jesus death and resurrection. John 7:39. These are the symbolic 144,000 of Israel.

 

[CTK]

Unfortunately, church-ianity has everyone locked up into the belief that all of the book of Revelation is only about the future! Well,.... indeed it is,... but BEGINNING in the day of Jesus' ministry to us, while in his mortal flesh.
Please take a good look at Mat. 27:50-54. There is MUCH going on there, that even church-ianity does not know what to do with it.

Here is the problem that many Christians do not understand:
Israel of faith, while "under the altar" of the OC. never had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor had they partaken in the Gift of Eternal life.
Therefore, though many of those saints of the OC. lived and died, by the "rememberance" of God [Mal. 3:16-18], THEY WERE STILL WAITING for the Promise that was to come. And that He did, in the Day of Jesus death and resurrection. John 7:39. These are the symbolic 144,000 of Israel.

Matthew 27 does not call the raised saints the 144,000.

Malachi 3 does not identify those remembered by God as the souls under the altar.

Revelation 6 does not say the souls under the altar are all faithful Israelites from the Old Covenant.

The white robes are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And John 7:39 does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were later sealed and became the 144,000.

These connections are being added to the texts rather than stated by them - study and stay within scripture.

Revelation 7 presents the 144,000 as servants sealed before coming judgment, and Revelation 14 presents them as firstfruits who follow the Lamb. That sounds more like a specially prepared company for a prophetic purpose than a complete number of Old Covenant believers who had already died.

 

[Earburner]

I am not sure I see Revelation making the connections you are making. Please consider -

Revelation 6 does not identify the souls under the altar as the 144,000. They are described as people who were slain for the word of God and their testimony. Revelation 7 then introduces 144,000 servants who are sealed before judgment is released upon the earth.

Likewise, the white robes given to the martyrs are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit. Revelation normally uses white garments to represent righteousness, purity, victory, or vindication, while the 144,000 are specifically sealed upon their foreheads.

John 7:39 teaches that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified, but it does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were then posthumously sealed and numbered as the 144,000.

The timing in Revelation 7 seems especially important. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds are released and are called “the servants of our God.” That sounds like preparation for a coming work or trial, rather than simply identifying Old Covenant believers who had already died.

So I am not sure the text itself establishes that:

the souls under the altar are the 144,000,​

​

their white robes are the Holy Spirit’s seal,​

​

or the 144,000 consist exclusively of faithful Israelites who died before the cross.​

When you unpack what you just wrote, you will discover alot of imposed teaching by church-ianity upon you. For example: Ever since Jesus was "glorified" (John 7:39), no one now, ever receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit AFTER THEIR DEATH. It's always before death. Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[Earburner]

Matthew 27 does not call the raised saints the 144,000.

Malachi 3 does not identify those remembered by God as the souls under the altar.

Revelation 6 does not say the souls under the altar are all faithful Israelites from the Old Covenant.

The white robes are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And John 7:39 does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were later sealed and became the 144,000.

These connections are being added to the texts rather than stated by them - study and stay within scripture.

Revelation 7 presents the 144,000 as servants sealed before coming judgment, and Revelation 14 presents them as firstfruits who follow the Lamb. That sounds more like a specially prepared company for a prophetic purpose than a complete number of Old Covenant believers who had already died.

Are you falling into the same bracket of church-ianity, thinking that the MANY saints that rose out of their graves UPON JESUS' DEATH on the cross were NC saints???
KJV Mat. 27:50-55
Again, WHEN was the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit GIVEN???
John 7:39