Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

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jeffweeder

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Funny, you brought it up and said, "You were saying the OC passed in 70AD remember?"

But the real questions is did you remember where I actually wrote it? If so, then you need to show me that actual quote, else you are considered a false witness.

The ball is in your court.
Why not just tell us how you interpret the destruction of the temple instead of avoiding.
Somebody said it. If it wasn't you, I apologize
 

TribulationSigns

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You can’t have it both ways, you can’t say the covenant ended at the cross then argue Galatians 4:25 is referring to people who are under that covenant in 48AD.

Wow! The confusion here is failing to distinguish between the legal establishment of a covenant before God and people continuing to live under a covenant "they wrongly believe is still in force."


Yes, the Old Covenant officially ended at the cross. Christ established the New Covenant through His blood (Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:15). God’s covenantal judgment had already shifted. The Old Covenant was obsolete in God’s eyes, even though its earthly structures and unbelieving adherents continued in the New Testament period.

Galatians 4:25 is not saying the Old Covenant was still valid in 48 AD like you think! Paul is identifying those who remained attached to the Old Covenant system and were still in bondage to it because of their unbelief. Their continued rejection of Christ placed them in the condition of slavery represented by Hagar.

There is a difference between saying, “This covenant is still active before God,” and saying, “There are people who are still clinging to a covenant that God has already fulfilled and set aside.” A person can remain trapped in an expired system, but that does not make the system valid again. Nor your 70AD doctrine!

The same principle applies today: people can reject the New Covenant and attempt to establish their own righteousness through law, but their rejection does not resurrect the Old Covenant. Hebrews is clear: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13).

The mistake is confusing the existence of people still in covenantal blindness with the continued existence of the covenant itself. Paul was describing their spiritual condition, not declaring that the Old Covenant remained in force after the cross.

Selah!
 

TribulationSigns

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Do you deny saying it?

Oh please! You are playing games here. I cannot confirm or deny a statement that I never made. You claimed this to me: “You were saying the OC passed in 70AD, remember?”

Now please show me where I actually wrote that. Provide the exact quote, the context, and where it was stated.

If you can produce my words, then we can address them. But if you cannot find the quote because I never said it, then you need to acknowledge that you misrepresented my position. In other words, LIAR!

The burden of proof is on the person making the accusation. YOU! The ball is in your court. I am waiting for the evidence.

Grow up!
 

jeffweeder

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Oh please! You are playing games here. I cannot confirm or deny a statement that I never made. You claimed this to me: “You were saying the OC passed in 70AD, remember?”

This is ridiculous.
You should know if you would say such a thing, so who is playing games.

I am done trying to discuss this with you.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Meanwhile, the Judaean Christians were fleeing as Jesus had warned, and surviving.

Your reply is nothing more than speculation wrapped in sarcasm.

Show me the Scripture that says the Judaean Christians, while being filled with the Holy Spirit in the holy temple of the heart, fled because they still believed the physical temple remained God's holy dwelling. You can't, because the Bible never says that. You're reading your doctrine into the text instead of drawing your doctrine from it.sd

The New Testament repeatedly teaches that believers are God's temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5). Christ also declared that the old temple would be left desolate (Matthew 23:38), and He identified His own body as the true temple (John 2:19-21). The entire direction of the New Covenant is away from a physical sanctuary and toward Christ and His people.

So your claim about what the Judaean Christians supposedly believed is not biblical evidence—it's conjecture. You have no verse that says they regarded the temple as still holy or that this was their reason for fleeing.

You got the wrong Judea to begin with, so look at who is being crucified, upside down, becasue you got it backward! :laughing:
 
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covenantee

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Your reply is nothing more than speculation wrapped in sarcasm.

Show me the Scripture that says the Judaean Christians, while being filled with the Holy Spirit in the holy temple of the heart, fled because they still believed the physical temple remained God's holy dwelling. You can't, because the Bible never says that. You're reading your doctrine into the text instead of drawing your doctrine from it.sd

The New Testament repeatedly teaches that believers are God's temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5). Christ also declared that the old temple would be left desolate (Matthew 23:38), and He identified His own body as the true temple (John 2:19-21). The entire direction of the New Covenant is away from a physical sanctuary and toward Christ and His people.

So your claim about what the Judaean Christians supposedly believed is not biblical evidence—it's conjecture. You have no verse that says they regarded the temple as still holy or that this was their reason for fleeing.

You got the wrong Judea to begin with, so look at who is being crucified, upside down, becasue you got it backward! :laughing:
Utter nonsense.

They fled because they believed Jesus, not you.

They fled because, unlike you, they knew that Jesus was not conjecture.

They weren't hyperspiritualized gnostics.

And Jesus, whom they believed, preserved their lives.

They didn't end up like you.

How was your crucifixion? :laughing:
 
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grafted branch

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Wow! The confusion here is failing to distinguish between the legal establishment of a covenant before God and people continuing to live under a covenant "they wrongly believe is still in force."


Yes, the Old Covenant officially ended at the cross. Christ established the New Covenant through His blood (Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:15). God’s covenantal judgment had already shifted. The Old Covenant was obsolete in God’s eyes, even though its earthly structures and unbelieving adherents continued in the New Testament period.

Galatians 4:25 is not saying the Old Covenant was still valid in 48 AD like you think! Paul is identifying those who remained attached to the Old Covenant system and were still in bondage to it because of their unbelief. Their continued rejection of Christ placed them in the condition of slavery represented by Hagar.

There is a difference between saying, “This covenant is still active before God,” and saying, “There are people who are still clinging to a covenant that God has already fulfilled and set aside.” A person can remain trapped in an expired system, but that does not make the system valid again. Nor your 70AD doctrine!

The same principle applies today: people can reject the New Covenant and attempt to establish their own righteousness through law, but their rejection does not resurrect the Old Covenant. Hebrews is clear: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13).

The mistake is confusing the existence of people still in covenantal blindness with the continued existence of the covenant itself. Paul was describing their spiritual condition, not declaring that the Old Covenant remained in force after the cross.

Selah!
Ok, so the Jerusalem that now is in Galatians 4:25 only existed in the minds of unbelievers, right? I mean Paul and all the other believers at that time knew the old covenant ended, right? That your argument.

So when interpreting the Bible we have to keep in mind that some things only exist in the minds of unbelievers, even when the Bible say things like the Jerusalem that now is. What other examples are there in the Bible of this sort of thing? Are the elements melting with fervent heat only taking place in the minds of unbelievers? If so then that could’ve been fulfilled in 70AD in the minds of the unbelieving Jews who didn’t flee, right?
 

CTK

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There is no way demonstrate who the prince is in 26b based on grammar or context.
Please consider the following narrative:

Part 1 of 2

Reflective narrative:
"From Stones to the Savior: Why God Separated the Arrival and Death of the Messiah"

In the “restorative verse” of Daniel 9:25, God traces the timeline to the arrival of the Anointed One with striking precision: seven weeks and sixty-two weeks — sixty-nine weeks of years from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The division is deliberate. The first seven weeks (49 years) mark the era of rebuilding — when stones were set, walls were raised, the Temple was restored, and civic life resumed. It was a season of visible renewal. Jerusalem stood again. Hope began to rise.

Then come the sixty-two weeks (434 years), stretching forward in long expectation. These were not years of construction, but years of anticipation — seasons shaped by foreign rule, prophetic silence, and covenant longing. The city had been restored, yet the greater promise remained ahead. The structure stood, but the true restoration had not yet come. But when we move into Daniel 9:26, the language shifts. The Messiah is said to be “cut off after the sixty-two weeks.” Not after the full sixty-nine. Not “after the seven and sixty-two.” After the sixty-two.

This precision is not accidental. By isolating the sixty-two weeks in connection with His death, the prophecy intentionally separates the rebuilding era from the redemptive climax. The seven weeks belong to stone and mortar. The sixty-two weeks carry us to the appearance and mission of the Messiah. And “after” those sixty-two weeks, He is cut off.

In this structure, the cutting off does not belong to some distant, disconnected era. It flows directly out of the same continuous timeline that began with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. There is no textual signal of interruption, postponement, or chronological leap. The Messiah’s death stands within the prophecy’s unfolding sequence — not separated from it by centuries, but emerging naturally from it. In this way, God ensures that we do not confuse restoration of infrastructure with restoration of humanity. The first rebuilding was architectural. The second was sacrificial. Jerusalem’s walls were restored in the first seven weeks. But the true Temple — the Living Temple — would be cut off in the next era.

The prophecy quietly reframes what desolation truly means. It is not first about collapsing stones. It is about the cutting off of the Anointed One. The greater desolation is not a broken city — it is a rejected Messiah. And the greater restoration is not repaired gates — it is a crucified and risen Savior. Thus, Daniel honors both movements without blending them. The rebuilding of Jerusalem was real and necessary. It prepared the stage. But it was never the climax. The city stood so that the Messiah could come. And when He came, the focus shifted from walls to wounds.

God separated the arrival and the death of the Messiah in the prophecy so that we would not mistake the survival of buildings for the salvation of souls. The restoration of stones was temporary. The redemption accomplished by the Savior is eternal. And the timeline of Daniel 9 unfolds as a single, purposeful arc — moving steadily from decree, to rebuilding, to Messiah, to cross — without fracture, without deferral, and without the need for reinsertion at the end of history.

And the people of the prince who is to come

This brief yet weighty phrase— “the people of the prince who is to come”—has sparked intense debate and diverging interpretations for centuries.

The identity of this mysterious “prince” has become one of the most contested topics in all of eschatology. Much hinges on how one interprets not only who this prince is, but also when he comes and which people belong to him. Broadly speaking, interpreters tend to link this phrase to one of three historical or prophetic contexts, each tied to a specific Temple era:

One view identifies the “people” as the Roman legions who destroyed Jerusalem under the command of General Titus. In this interpretation, Titus is the “prince who is to come,” and the prophecy is seen as fulfilled after the death and resurrection of Jesus in 70 AD.

Some scholars connect the prophecy to the Syrian ruler Antiochus Epiphanes, who desecrated the second Temple during the intertestamental period. In this view, the “prince” refers to a foreign oppressor or local antagonist who attacked the city and Sanctuary during the tumultuous years after the Babylonian exile. However, this interpretation does not align with the seventy-weeks’ timeline or the appearance of the Messiah and thus creates inconsistencies with the prophecy’s structure.

The most widely held view in modern dispensationalist circles projects this prophecy into the future, assigning it to a rebuilt third Temple in Jerusalem. Here, the “prince” is often understood to be this mythical antichrist, who will supposedly make a covenant with Israel, break it mid-week, and then desecrate the Temple, initiating a terrible tribulation period. In this model, the “people” are his followers or military forces, expected to carry out destruction during the end times. This third view, though popular, requires a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks—disrupting the prophetic sequence and detaching the passage from the context of Christ's first coming. Moreover, it relies on speculation about a future Temple not mentioned in Daniel 9, and inserts into the text a future figure that Gabriel never names. This is the product of the futurist interpretation authored by the Jesuit priest, Ribera.

Many interpretations of Daniel 9:26 begin by choosing a Temple and a time period, then assigning an identity to “a prince,” and finally deciding who “his people” must be. But is that the best method?

What if there is a more faithful path—one that begins not with external speculation, but with the inspired structure of the chapter itself? Daniel 9 gives us internal clues. Across the chapter there are five occurrences across four reference-types involving “prince” language (and one crucial moment where the title is deliberately withheld). If we follow how Daniel and Gabriel use these terms—and pay attention to the subtle shifts between the restorative and destructive verses—we can approach the identity of “the prince who is to come” with greater textual discipline, rather than beginning with military history or end-time theories.

1) Generic “Princes” — Daniel 9:6 and 9:8

The first two references appear in Daniel’s confession:

“neither have we heeded your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings and our princes…” (v.6)
“o lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers…” (v.8)

These are generic references to Israel’s leaders who failed to listen to God’s prophets. Importantly, the prophetic title nagiyd is not used here. Daniel is not identifying a foretold figure; he is confessing the guilt of Israel’s historical leadership.

2) “Messiah the Prince” — Daniel 9:25

Then the prophecy turns, and a different kind of “prince” appears:

"until messiah the prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks…” (v.25)

Here “Messiah” is joined to “Prince,” and the Hebrew title nagiyd is used. This is no ordinary ruler. This is a divinely appointed figure—the Anointed One. In the restorative verse, Gabriel speaks with clarity and honor: Jerusalem is named, and the Messiah is presented with a royal title. The city is identified. The Messiah is enthroned in the wording. The prophecy is moving toward restoration and arrival. The structure is deliberate: the first seven weeks highlight rebuilding and restoration; the sixty-two that follow carry Israel forward in expectation until the arrival of the Messiah at the appointed time.

 
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CTK

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There is no way demonstrate who the prince is in 26b based on grammar or context.

Part 2 of 2

3) “Messiah” (title withheld) — Daniel 9:26

Immediately after the restorative verse comes the first destructive line:

“after the sixty-two weeks, messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself.” (v.26)
Notice what changes. The word “Prince” is not repeated. Gabriel does not say, “Messiah the Prince shall be cut off.” He says simply, “Messiah.” The identity remains the same person as verse 25, but the presentation shifts. The prophecy moves from arrival to sacrifice; from royal emphasis to substitutionary death. The crown-language fades, and the cross-language dominates.

This appears intentional. In verse 25, the Messiah is described in His royal role—as the appointed Prince arriving to fulfill God’s plan. In verse 26, He is portrayed not as the enthroned Prince, but as the sacrificial Lamb—cut off for others, not for Himself. The title of rule is withheld as though the prophecy itself is showing what the gospel will later reveal: the Prince lays down His crown to take up the cross.

At the same time, the place-names shift. In verse 25, Gabriel says “Jerusalem.” In verse 26, the city is no longer named; it becomes simply “the city” and “the sanctuary.” Proper names and honor-titles withdraw. The tone turns judicial. This mirrors the grief-filled transition we see in the Gospels. Jesus cleanses the Temple and calls it “My house” (Matthew 21:12–13). Later, after rejection, He says, “Behold, your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:38). That shift—my house to your house—is not semantic. It is judicial. It marks the withdrawal of recognized ownership and presence because of national rejection. Daniel 9:26 carries a similar weight: the vocabulary tightens, the names fade, and the prophecy speaks in the language of consequence

4) “The People of the Prince Who Is to Come” — Daniel 9:26

Now we reach the controversial phrase:

“the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary…” (v.26)

This is the only other place in Daniel 9 where the Hebrew title nagiyd appears besides verse 25. But now “Messiah” is absent. That combination matters. It signals that this figure is neither the generic “princes” of Daniel’s prayer (v.6, v.8) nor the titled “Messiah the Prince” of verse 25.

He is a distinct nagiyd—a coming ruler connected to the people who bring destruction. And here is the key nuance: God could have used a common, generic word for ruler here, as Daniel did earlier in his prayer. But He does not. He uses the elevated, purpose-weighted term nagiyd again—without granting the identifying title “Messiah.”

The effect is deliberate. It marks this “prince” as more than a mere military administrator, yet also exposes him as something other than the true Anointed One. He is presented as a counterfeit-prince — a figure who will rise clothed in sacred authority, imitating the posture of divine leadership while lacking the divine identity that belongs to Christ alone. By assigning him the elevated title nagiyd without pairing it with “Messiah,” the text subtly signals that this ruler will not merely govern politically, but will assume a role that encroaches upon divine prerogative. He will not deny God outright; he will claim to represent Him. He will not reject sacred authority; he will assert that he embodies it.

In this way, the wording anticipates a ruler who positions himself as the visible head of God’s people on earth — speaking in God’s name, defining doctrine, mediating forgiveness, and exercising authority over conscience as though heaven itself had vested him with Christ’s office. The absence of the title “Messiah” is therefore not accidental. It is protective. God withholds the true Anointed designation while still using the royal term nagiyd to expose the dangerous resemblance. This prince will present himself as Christ’s earthly stand-in — even as he rises in opposition to the true Prince of princes. The text does not call him Messiah because he is not the Anointed One — but it calls him nagiyd because he will claim a place that looks strikingly similar.

Historically, many identify this with Titus and the Roman forces who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. As a surface-level fulfillment, the fit is strong: Rome is the destroying “people,” and Titus stands as the associated ruler. Daniel does show that God uses foreign powers as instruments of judgment—Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, and others—so the idea of Rome serving this role is not foreign to Daniel’s pattern. But the verse is phrased carefully. It does not say the prince destroys the city; it says his people do. The destruction is attributed first to the people, and the prince is described as “to come.” That wording allows the prince to be tied to the Roman world and its legacy without requiring him to be the field commander in the moment of destruction.

It can point to a ruler who emerges from that same people after the devastation—a later authority arising from the aftermath.

This opens the door to a deeper prophetic layer that aligns with Daniel’s visions. Rome’s people destroy the city and the sanctuary, and out of the Roman world—after Jerusalem’s fall and after pagan Rome’s eventual collapse—another power rises. In Daniel’s language elsewhere, this is the trajectory of the little horn: a deceptive, blasphemous force that emerges from the Roman sphere, takes on a religious-political identity, and stands in opposition to the true Prince of princes (Daniel 8:25). In that reading, Daniel’s post-cross arc unfolds in three movements:

Rome’s people destroy the city and the sanctuary (the historical devastation).​

The prince who is to come rises later from among them—the little horn emerging from Rome’s legacy.​

He rules over that legacy—not mainly by military conquest, but by spiritual authority, claiming Christ’s place while opposing Christ’s truth.​

So the language of Daniel 9:25–26 is not incidental. Names and titles appear in restoration; they withdraw in judgment. The Messiah is introduced as Prince; He is cut off as sacrifice. And then another nagiyd appears—untitled, ambiguous, “to come”—linked to the destroying people and pointing forward to the long arc of counterfeit power Daniel had unveiled in chapters 7 and 8.

In this way, the text itself guides the reader. It does not require us to begin with speculation. It invites us to watch what Heaven emphasizes, what Heaven withholds, and how the prophecy’s own structure distinguishes the Messiah from the prince who follows—so we can identify “the prince who is to come,” and understand just who “his people” are, in both the historical and prophetic layers Daniel is presenting.
 

David in NJ

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Please consider the following narrative:

Part 1 of 2
The prophecy quietly reframes what desolation truly means. It is not first about collapsing stones. It is about the cutting off of the Anointed One. The greater desolation is not a broken city — it is a rejected Messiah.
You did GOOD up to this point and then flustered.

Messiah being Cut-Off is NOT the Desolation.

Have you never read the words of the LORD???

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by the prophet Daniel
(let the reader understand),

Do you understand now???
 

CTK

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You did GOOD up to this point and then flustered.

Messiah being Cut-Off is NOT the Desolation.

Have you never read the words of the LORD???

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by the prophet Daniel
(let the reader understand),

Do you understand now???
Thanks David... would you be kind enough to elaborate on why the AOD is not the cross and also, your interpretation of the AOD? Thank you.
 
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David in NJ

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Thanks David... would you be kind enough to elaborate on why the AOD is not the cross and also, your interpretation of the AOD? Thank you.
May we all be as respectful as you - thank you = for your response is an encouragement to us all to walk in