Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
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You didn't understand my post #644. All the OC saints "under the altar" of the OC had died in faith believing of "the Promise to come". Rev. 6:9-11.
Did you know that an "altar" is a place of Remembrance, as well as a place of sacrifice?
Therefore Abraham, Moses and the many others of OC Israel NEVER HAD the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is the vehicle of the Gift of Eternal Life. KJV John 7:39; 1 John 5:11-13.
Please re-study and learn by the Holy Spirit within you, and He shall confirm through the mind of Christ that KJV Rev. 6:9-11 is about the 144,000 of OC Israel, of which God "remembered", and never forgot. KJV Malachi 3:16-18.
Ever since John 7:39, no longer are their names written in the book of Remembrance, but NOW.....
they are written in the Book of Life, who is Jesus.
Edit: are you understanding John 7:39?? Who did you think the MANY (symbolic 144k saints) were, in and around Jerusalem, that arose from their graves on the day of Jesus' crucifixion? KJV Mat. 27:50-54.
To them, that is when the "white robe" (the SEAL of the Holy Spirit) was PERMANENTLY given to them! Rev. 6:9-11.
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As I said in post 679..
Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.
The changing of the world was a theologically biased based reason rather than a literal direct translation.
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard seen in modern bibles.
Does that answer your question?
Leave/depart from what?
"
1. defection from truth (properly, the state)
2. "apostasy"
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake."
Falling away.
Not flying away.
Can you point out where in 2 Thes 2:3 where the departure is from faith, truth or whatever you say it is????Leave/depart from what?
"
1. defection from truth (properly, the state)
2. "apostasy"
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake."
Falling away.
Not flying away.
Do you not understand the definition of "apostasy"?
If not, just leave it for those who do.
The Greek word *apostasia* doesn't mean religious apostasy - that meaning isn't in the word itself. It simply means a falling away or departure. The reason people read religious apostasy into it is because they assume the verse is talking about the church falling away from the faith.
I've already answered that question for you...
The 4th generation Latin Vulgate used the word DEPARTURE.
The 1384 Wycliffe bible used DEPARTURE
The 1388 Wycliffe Purvey bible used DEPARTURE
The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.
The changing of the world was a theologically biased based reason rather than a literal direct translation.
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard seen in modern bibles.
You didn't answer what I said...instead you posted a more modern definition.
Then from the same page you posted from I presented how the word was derived.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand")....to stand away.
Then I asked you to show me from 2 Thes 2:3 what they departed from.
If you can't respond to what I posted then perhaps we should "just leave it for those who do" understand the pre-trib rapture.
Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation, which pre-dates Mabie by more than four centuries:
3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition
Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is nonexistent.
Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.
Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred.
From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.
There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.
A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.
Near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."
Occurrences are Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.
Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.
Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.
Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."
Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?
2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy
The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3
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2 Thessalonians 2 apostasia?:
Biblically, simply "Departure" Harmonizes With Several Other Distinctions, Rightly Divided!:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS):
Amen!
Biblically, simply "Departure" Harmonizes With Several Other Distinctions, Rightly Divided!:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS):
Amen!
It is modernist revisionism which harmonizes with nothing but dispensational Jesuit futurism.
Yet is in line with the teachings of Christ through Paul
You are, yes, but your… limited… understanding of it is the issue.
I don’t. See above.
Um, no, of course not.
God’s true Israel is Jesus Christ, Davy. And all those in Christ ~ of any ethnicity, Jewish or otherwise ~ are true Jews of God, of His Israel.
I agree. The nation God promised Abraham was always and will always be those children of the promise, through Isaac, all those God calls, of every ethnicity, Jew and Gentile alike. These are true Jews of God.
“Not all who are descended from Israel (Jacob) belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but ‘Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.’ This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” (Romans 9:6-8).
It’s no “metaphor.” As this same Paul says in Galatians 3:28-29…
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”
It cannot be any clearer than that, Davy.
Right, all the children of the promise. Absolutely. <smile>
Yeah, no such thing. Agree.
Grace and peace to you.
LOL....thats nice. Now will you take the time to respond to my post?
WHERE DOES THE VERSE SAY THE "APOSTASY" IS A FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH?
Would you consider your self as a Preterist?
As requested.
Rapture Wimpism
Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.
In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.
There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.
But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.
The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.
God has promised...:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.
But the promise is only for those who resolve to eschew rapture wimpism.
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