Matthew was the only one to mention it because knowledge comes by “precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little”.
Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
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No, again, it’s just that your understanding of who truly makes up God’s Israel is wrong; again, God’s true Israel is Christ Jesus Himself, which means then that all those in Christ are of God’s Israel:
Matthew tells us that Jesus fulfills Hosea 11 (Matt. 2:13–15). He is the true Israel, the faithful Israel who succeeds where old covenant Israel failed. Like ancient Israel, He came up out of Egypt, passed through the waters, and was tested in the wilderness (2:13–15; 3:13–4:11; see Ex. 12:40–42; 14:1–31; 16:4). Unlike old covenant Israel, however, Jesus passed the test. He is therefore worthy to be called God’s Son because of who He is in His deity and because of what He accomplished in His humanity.
The good news of the gospel tells us that we can be the true Israel of God as well. If we are in Christ, we share in the privileges and relationship He enjoys as God’s true Son. We are not sons of God by nature; rather, we are sons of God by adoption, His beloved children in Christ. As such, we inherit all of the promises given to old covenant Israel.
Okay, sure. Regardless of earthly ethnicity.
It’s not a metaphor, Davy. It is what it is. He says there, Davy, explicitly , that “no one is a Jew who is one outwardly,” meaning one who is merely of Jewish ethnicity.
I understand what you mean by “the existing 'seed' of Israel.” It again, as Paul says in Romans 9:6-8, “….not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but ‘Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.’ This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” There is no “metaphor there,” and there is no ambiguity.
Of course I did. Why do you keep dismissing it as not real? As only a metaphor? You know… “spiritual”… start thinking of it as of the Spirit of God, Davy. We are born again, by the Spirit, and thus spiritual (Paul says this… “you who are spiritual,” Galatians 6:1)… of the Holy Spirit, in Christ and this sons of God… of the Israel of God.
Well, if you said that, you’d be wrong (again). <smile> I’d correct you again here, though, and say that the conversion of the Jewish elect has begun, even though the Gentile elect haven’t fully been brought in to God’s Israel yet, there are those out there who’ve we refer to as Messianic Jews, as they to have been born again and are thus our brothers in Christ… and therefore the true seed of Abraham, again, along with us, children of the promise through Isaac. So I would say that the partial hardening is being removed simultaneously with the fullness of of the Gentiles being brought in. When both are complete, all of God’s Israel will be saved, and this is what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
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As we know, each of the four Gospels was written with a particular audience and purpose in view. For that reason, one Gospel may emphasize a certain event, detail, or prophecy from the Messiah’s ministry that another Gospel does not mention, while another may present a different aspect of the same scene. Some events appear in more than one Gospel, but each account is carefully selected and arranged to serve the writer’s particular purpose. Nothing is included without significance, and Matthew’s record of the opened tombs and raised saints should be considered within that broader design. Matthew was writing with a distinctly Jewish audience in view, and the language he uses would have brought several familiar passages from the Tanakh immediately to mind.
Matthew 27:52–53 says:
“The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”
For a Jewish reader familiar with the prophets, this scene would echo Isaiah 26:19:
“Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy.”
It would also recall Ezekiel 37:12–14:
“Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O My people... And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and raise you from your graves.”
Daniel 12:2 provides another clear parallel:
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”
Matthew uses very similar words / phrases: the saints had “fallen asleep,” their tombs were opened, and many were raised. To a Jewish audience, those words would not sound accidental. They would point back to the prophetic promises that God would one day open the graves, awaken those sleeping in the dust, and bring life out of death.
The location is also significant. These saints entered “the holy city.” That detail would further connect the event with Israel’s hope of restoration. Matthew is not merely reporting an unusual miracle. He is showing that the death and resurrection of Jesus had begun to activate the promises Israel had been waiting for.
The first fruits pattern may also stand behind the event. Leviticus 23 describes the offering of the first fruits at the beginning of the harvest. The first fruits were not the entire harvest; they were the first portion and the guarantee that the full harvest would follow. The New Testament later identifies Christ Himself as:
“the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep” —1 Corinthians 15:20
Matthew carefully preserves that order. Although the tombs were opened at the death of Jesus, the saints came out only after His resurrection. Christ rises first. He is the true first fruits. The raised saints then appear as an immediate visible sign that His victory over death will not end with Him. The greater resurrection harvest is still to come. This may help explain why Matthew alone records the event.
Matthew repeatedly presents Jesus as the fulfillment of Israel’s Scriptures, hopes, and prophetic expectations. His Jewish readers would have recognized in the opened tombs the language of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel. They would have understood that the prophets had spoken of a day when the dead would live, the graves would open, and those sleeping in the dust would awake. Matthew’s message is therefore powerful and deliberate:
The promised resurrection had begun because the Messiah had conquered death.
Jesus was not simply another teacher who died in Jerusalem. His death shook the earth, opened the graves, and announced that the power of death had been broken. His resurrection was the first fruits, and the saints who appeared afterward were a visible witness that the full harvest would one day follow.
For Matthew’s Jewish audience, this event would have declared that the ancient promises of the Tanakh were no longer merely future hopes. In the death and resurrection of the Messiah, their fulfillment had already begun.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
CTK, this logic breaks down for all four Gospels, not just Matthew. The idea is always "Gospel X uses language that would resonate with audience Y." But the resurrection hope from Isaiah/Ezekiel/Daniel isn't a Jewish-only need, it's something every believer needs brought to mind, Roman, Greek, Jew, all of them.
So if that's the standard for saying a Gospel was "aimed at" a specific group, it fails across the board because the same reasoning would apply no matter who's reading it. Which means the whole "each Gospel had a distinct target audience" claim doesn't actually hold up on its own logic.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Every Word o GOD is meat for his sheep . Yes indeed . and the sheep will not OMIT HIS words in fa vor
of men pleasing words . Let us all bear and keep THAT in mind .
For we have many pickers and many choosers and they have no idea who they have picked and chosen to sit under .
NO sheep omits THE WORDS of THE BELOVED GOD AND HIS CHRIST . Them words be our meat .
You all may return to the thread now . Let that be a reminder for us all .
Sheep do NOT pit the writing of apostel against Christ or another apostels writing either.
IT is simply MEAT for the sheep . have a real lovely day now and let us bear and keep this IN MIND and on our hearts .
Davy
Well-Known Member
My understanding of the matter is directly from what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3. You ought to read it sometime...
Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV
You lied about that. Here is what the last verse of Hosea 11 says...
Hos 11:12
12 Ephraim compasseth Me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
KJV
You cannot simply try and treat the Book of Hosea like some secular novel chronology, like all events written there happen in order. The Hosea 11 Chapter is still God rebuking the northern ten tribes just prior to His scattering them by the kings of Assyria per 2 Kings 17. At that time of the Northern Ten Tribe "kingdom of Israel" scattering, the "house of Judah" kingdom at Jerusalem was still following God and was yet then still faithful. But about 120 years later the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem also fell away from God and was taken captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. READ ALL YOUR BIBLE.
It is OBVIOUS that you have not really studied enough of The Old Testament histories and prophecies, and have been wrongly taught that the Old Testament prophets are all old dead history. The Book of Hosea still has much that has not yet been fulfilled.
I know. Which is why you should try to understand the pre-trib theology better.
Sure. I understand. Me, too... it's why I quoted him... <smile> Again:
"Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:23-29)
But you think contrary to ~ or are just still in denial of ~ Paul's very words, there, so... <smile>
To lie about something, Davy, one has to know he or she is speaking a falsehood. I could ~ if I were to "think" along the same lines as you here ~ say the same of you. So, we can just call it a difference of opinion and/or understanding.
Ohhhhh, boy... <eye roll> Yeah, see above...
I did no such thing... nothing about order of events; this statement is totally non sequitur.
Hmmmm, interesting... but again, total non sequitur. Love Hosea, by the way...
<chuckles> Try to stay on subject...
That would be a great conversation to have, but I think you're just mad and trying to change the subject. Or just ranting and raving...
Again, Matthew tells us that Jesus fulfills Hosea 11 (Matthew 2:13–15)... He is the true Israel, the faithful Israel who succeeds where old covenant Israel failed. Like ancient Israel, He came up out of Egypt, passed through the waters, and was tested in the wilderness (Matthew 2:13–15; Matthew 3:13–4:11; see Exodus 12:40–42; 14:1–31; 16:4). Unlike old covenant Israel, however, Jesus passed the test. He is therefore worthy to be called God’s Son because of who He is in His deity and because of what He accomplished in His humanity.
AND SO... we can be the true Israel of God as well. If we are in Christ, we share in the privileges and relationship He enjoys as God’s true Son. We are not sons of God by nature; rather, we are sons of God by adoption, His beloved children in Christ. As such, we inherit all of the promises given to old covenant Israel.
<eye roll>
I don't disagree with this, actually, but might ~ maybe not, but might ~ say it in a little bit different context than you do. At any rate, Jesus said the whole Old Testament was about Him, Davy. Explicitly in John 5:46 and Luke 24:44.
Grace and peace to you, Davy. Especially grace...
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If you like I invite you to come to this thread and reply to this statement.
One way we can know the return of Jesus...(the first return)...is pre-tribulation is the mention of what the world will look like when Jesus returns. We know this return isn't speaking about the end of the tribulation because after going through the 7 year tribulation the world will not be rainbows, puppy dogs, butterflies and daisies. People will not be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building.
Jesus says the world will look like the days of Noah and Lot when He returns. Those day fit the pre-tribulation description rather than an end of the tribulation world view and economy.
It's amazing just how many people fight against the theology of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
Thanks for your thoughts, but I do not believe that conclusion necessarily follows. The four Gospels proclaim the same Messiah and communicate truths intended for the entire Church. However, they do not present the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus in precisely the same way. I believe that God has each writer select, arrange, and emphasize particular events according to his theological purpose, historical circumstances, and the readers he especially seeks to address. A truth may be universal while its presentation is adapted to a particular audience.
Matthew writes within a distinctly Jewish and Messianic framework. He presents Jesus as Israel’s promised Messiah and King—the One who fulfills the Law, the Prophets, and the covenant hopes of Israel.
Mark emphasizes the suffering Servant who acts, serves, suffers, and ultimately gives His life for others.
Luke writes with Gentile readers especially in view and presents Jesus as the perfect Son of Man—the Savior whose compassion and redemptive mission extend to all humanity.
John presents Jesus as the eternal Word—God revealed in human flesh. His Gospel places particular emphasis not merely upon what Jesus did, but upon who He truly is.
These are not four different Messiahs. They are four complementary portraits of the same Messiah. This helps explain why one Gospel may preserve an event, detail, saying, or prophetic connection that another Gospel does not mention. Each writer includes what best serves the particular portrait God wants him to present. Saying that a Gospel had a primary audience does not mean it had an exclusive audience. Nor does it mean that every verse in that Gospel applies only to that audience.
Matthew’s Gospel could certainly instruct Gentiles. Mark’s emphasis upon service, suffering, and discipleship was also necessary for Jewish believers. Luke’s presentation of Jesus as the Savior of all humanity remained valuable to Israel. John’s declaration that Jesus is the eternal Word belongs equally to Jew and Gentile. The message is universal, but their presentations are not identical.
This principle might be considered in Matthew’s unique account of the opened tombs and the saints who were raised following the death and resurrection of Jesus. I am not claiming that the resurrection promises of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel mattered only to Jewish readers. Of course Greeks, Romans, and all Gentile believers also needed to understand the hope of resurrection. The point is that Jewish readers who were already familiar with the Tanakh were especially prepared to recognize Matthew’s language:
- the dead living;
- those sleeping in the dust awakening;
- graves being opened;
- God’s people being raised;
- and the saints entering the holy city.
Therefore, maybe the real question is not: “Would resurrection matter to Gentiles too?” Of course it would. But instead: “Why did God have Matthew alone choose to record the opened tombs, the sleeping saints, the raising of many bodies, and their entrance into the holy city?” And this is what I was hoping to contribute to this conversation given your response in post #726.
The strongest explanation might be that Matthew recognized in this event a visible connection between the resurrection of Jesus and the promises already embedded within Israel’s Scriptures. His Jewish readers would have been especially likely to recognize those echoes immediately. Because Matthew repeatedly connects the life of Jesus with Israel’s Scriptures and prophecies, this particular scene could be examined against the resurrection promises already found in the Tanakh.
So perhaps I would qualify the audience claim in this way: Each Gospel was written for the Church as a whole, but God would have each writer select and arrange his material with particular readers, and purposes in view. That distinction preserves both truths: the gospel message is universal, but the four Gospel presentations are intentionally distinct. I hope this clarifies my earlier response, thanks.
I've been following that thread, but there's too much in the OP I disagree with for me to join the discussion.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The Rapture is the Glory of the Second Coming of Christ which ONLY takes place AFTER the Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17AFTER that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Jesus speaking with Nicodemus in John chapter 3 is only recorded in the Gospel of John
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