Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

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Davy

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You are, yes, but your… limited… understanding of it is the issue.
The understanding you claim I lack is actually your being deceived by those who ADD to that Scripture things that it does NOT say.

God’s true Israel is Jesus Christ, Davy. And all those in Christ ~ of any ethnicity, Jewish or otherwise ~ are true Jews of God, of His Israel.
God's true Israel are 'believers' on The Father and The Son, of BOTH the 'SEED' of Israel and of the Gentile. That is what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3. Paul thus made a distinction between Israelites of the seed (Jews put for all Israelites by Paul), and Gentiles. And so did God make that distinction in the Old Testament prophets, especially in Jeremiah 31. But your idea, "true Jews" is only a metaphor Paul used for a true follower of Christ Jesus INWARDLY. It has nothing to do with the Biblical fact of the existing 'seed' of Israel. Didn't you notice how you omitted Paul's pointer on that about it being an INWARDLY thing, which Paul gave that in the SPIRITUAL SENSE only???

I'd say you are also one of those that rejects what Paul also taught in Romans 11 about the future conversion of the majority of unbelieving Jews of the 'seed'. Paul said for the Gentile believer to not be conceited about that future conversion of the majority of Jews to Christ when Jesus returns.
 

CrowCross

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As requested.

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who resolve to eschew rapture wimpism.
Rapture wimps? Really??? That's the type of ad-homimen response you need?

Did you know Jesus returns twice? Perhaps you can mock the pretribulationist about that.
 

Davy

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Rapture wimps? Really??? That's the type of ad-homimen response you need?

Did you know Jesus returns twice? Perhaps you can mock the pretribulationist about that.

Lord Jesus returns only ONCE MORE, as written.

Zechariah 9:9-10 declare only TWO advents by Lord Jesus Christ. His 1st one was to die on the cross and offer remission of sins of those who believe on Him. His next 2nd coming will be to take reign over all nations and peoples on this earth, literal reign, with His elect faithful Church reigning with Him.

The so-called 'rapture', which word is not in the Greek NT manuscripts, is from a Latin translation, and only refers to the saints still alive on earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the last day of this world. It is about those saints being "caught up" to Jesus on His way to the Mount of Olives ON EARTH, as written in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Zechariah 14.
 

CrowCross

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Lord Jesus returns only ONCE MORE, as written.

Zechariah 9:9-10 declare only TWO advents by Lord Jesus Christ. His 1st one was to die on the cross and offer remission of sins of those who believe on Him. His next 2nd coming will be to take reign over all nations and peoples on this earth, literal reign, with His elect faithful Church reigning with Him.

The so-called 'rapture', which word is not in the Greek NT manuscripts, is from a Latin translation, and only refers to the saints still alive on earth when Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the last day of this world. It is about those saints being "caught up" to Jesus on His way to the Mount of Olives ON EARTH, as written in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Zechariah 14.
You need to tell all of us why in the book of Acts, Acts 1 the angels tell us Jesus will return in the same way in which He left...then in Rev 19 we see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse....Did Jesus ascend into heaven on a white horse?
The obvious answer is no. There is no white horse mentioned in Acts 1 ascension account as provided by Luke.

The hermeneutic biblical conclusion is Jesus returns twice. Pre-tribulation and then again at the end of the tribulation.
 

Davy

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You need to tell all of us why in the book of Acts, Acts 1 the angels tell us Jesus will return in the same way in which He left...then in Rev 19 we see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse....Did Jesus ascend into heaven on a white horse?
The obvious answer is no. There is no white horse mentioned in Acts 1 ascension account as provided by Luke.

The hermeneutic biblical conclusion is Jesus returns twice. Pre-tribulation and then again at the end of the tribulation.
That's straining at a gnat, not using your common sense.

The Apostles saw Jesus ascend into Heaven in the cloud, and Acts 1 reveals they were at the Mount of Olives.

Lord Jesus will likewise return coming in a cloud. And His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives as written in Zechariah 14.

Jesus' coming on a white horse is about His conquering Satan's armies on earth at the battle of Armageddon, which happens on that same day of His coming back to earth. See Rev.16 also with the 7th Vial.
 

CTK

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You need to tell all of us why in the book of Acts, Acts 1 the angels tell us Jesus will return in the same way in which He left...then in Rev 19 we see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse....Did Jesus ascend into heaven on a white horse?
The obvious answer is no. There is no white horse mentioned in Acts 1 ascension account as provided by Luke.

The hermeneutic biblical conclusion is Jesus returns twice. Pre-tribulation and then again at the end of the tribulation.
If you do not mind, what part of Philly are you in? No problem if you do not want to share.
 

amigo de christo

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I touched on A2 already as far as Paul indicating that the falling away had to occur first before the day of the Lord (the day Jesus comes when we are gathered to Him) occurs. Are you wanting to discuss what the falling away means what it entails exactly?

As for A3, the mystery of lawlessness already being at work, there is a discussion about this on another thread where someone is arguing that it's the revealing of the man of lawlessness that is being restrained rather than lawlessness itself, but I disagree. I think in order to determine what A3 is about, we have to discuss A4 as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

To me, what Paul is saying in this passage is that lawlessness was already occurring to an extent at the time he was writing the letter, but it was being restrained. It was occurring, but not without restraint. I believe He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. Because of the preaching of the gospel and the presence of the Holy Spirit working through Christians, lawlessness is restrained. Not completely, of course. But, to an extent. In verse 9 it seems to me that Paul is saying that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" is not occurring until the coming and revealing of the lawless one.

So, I take that to mean that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" is being restrained before the coming of the lawless one and then is no longer restrained once the lawless one comes and is revealed. This is why I relate this passage to Satan's little season that is described in Revelation 20:7-9. As an Amill, I believe that Satan will have a short time or little season when he is loosed and unrestrained (no longer bound/restrained) before the second coming of Christ. Paul is describing here in 2 Thessalonians 2 a restraint related to "the working of Satan" that will be loosed during a time just before the second coming of Christ, so that's why I see a connection there.

If lawlessness was not being restrained even when Paul was writing the letter, as preterists who think that Jesus came in 70 AD claim, then why would he have talked about a mass falling away occurring at some point in the future? It makes sense that it was lawlessness that Paul said was being restrained and if lawlessness is no longer being restrained, then that is what would lead to the mass falling away that Paul said had to occur first before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.
And peek around my friend . The inclusive god now merges all religoins under one common mindset
that all will beleive is of the ONE SAME GOD and HIS plan for PEACE . only it aint GOD .
Something been unleashed all right . And lawlessness now abounds wild and many call it love and loving and etc .
SOMETHING got unleashed and i sees me a MAJOR MASSIVE FALLING AWAY BIG TIME growing like wild fire .
By means of an ecumeincal harlot and her inclusive god who is satan who now by means
of a unifying delusion , which they think IS THE WILL OF GOD , but be of satan , IS MERGING THEM all .
AND GUESS WHo GOT the boot in its interreligious dialgoue . JESUS DID . THE DIRE NEED to repent and believe on HIM
HAS BEEN BOOTED OUT BY A LIE . something , oh something is going on RIGHT Now .
 
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IndianaRob

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You need to tell all of us why in the book of Acts, Acts 1 the angels tell us Jesus will return in the same way in which He left...then in Rev 19 we see Jesus returning to earth on a white horse....Did Jesus ascend into heaven on a white horse?
The obvious answer is no. There is no white horse mentioned in Acts 1 ascension account as provided by Luke.

The hermeneutic biblical conclusion is Jesus returns twice. Pre-tribulation and then again at the end of the tribulation.
The hermeneutics actually cut the other way. Revelation announces its own genre in the very first verse: John says God "sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" — "signified," not "described plainly." That's the book telling you up front it communicates in signs and symbols, not a video transcript.
 
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CrowCross

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That's straining at a gnat, not using your common sense.
Ohhhh..so you deemed me not using my commons sense because I don't SEE IT YOUR WAY?
The Apostles saw Jesus ascend into Heaven in the cloud, and Acts 1 reveals they were at the Mount of Olives.

Lord Jesus will likewise return coming in a cloud. And His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives as written in Zechariah 14.

Jesus' coming on a white horse is about His conquering Satan's armies on earth at the battle of Armageddon, which happens on that same day of His coming back to earth. See Rev.16 also with the 7th Vial.

Why did you fail to mention Jesus didn't leave on a white horse?

You need to explain away this dilemma. Jesus didn't leave in an Armageddon battle fashion.

So, please enlighten us with your superior biblical knowledge and explain why Jesus didn't leave on a white horse in Acts 1 yet returns on one in Rev 19 ...and why there is no mention of one during the description of the rapture in 1 Thes 4:16.

Davy, you should rejoice that you will be saved from the wrath of the tribulation christians are not destined for.
 

CrowCross

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The hermeneutics actually cut the other way. Revelation announces its own genre in the very first verse: John says God "sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" — "signified," not "described plainly." That's the book telling you up front it communicates in signs and symbols, not a video transcript.
Then the signs and symbols contradict.

Jesus didn't leave on a symbolic white horse. If Jesus returns just once..on a white horse symbolic or literal it doesn't match the ascension described by Luke in the book of Acts.
 

CrowCross

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If you do not mind, what part of Philly are you in? No problem if you do not want to share.
Just far enough away from the city an congestion where the Hoagies aren't as good and most people don't say wooder.
 
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IndianaRob

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Then the signs and symbols contradict.

Jesus didn't leave on a symbolic white horse. If Jesus returns just once..on a white horse symbolic or literal it doesn't match the ascension described by Luke in the book of Acts.

You're treating Luke's "plain, literal" account as something that reads like the symbolic language in Revelation, but Acts 1 says "while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight", and it's up to the reader to determine whether that cloud is literal or spiritual.

It could well be tied to the "cloud of witnesses" language elsewhere in Scripture. And in my opinion, it has to be the cloud of witnesses based on what’s given in other scripture.

That's the way the Bible works. If it weren't, then any Tom, Dick, or Harry smart person could use carnal knowledge and get more understanding than a simpleton who simply believes the Bible for what it says.
 
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CrowCross

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You're treating Luke's "plain, literal" account as something that reads like the symbolic language in Revelation, but Acts 1 says "while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight", and it's up to the reader to determine whether that cloud is literal or spiritual.
And if you noticed..no white horse. That's big.
It could well be tied to the "cloud of witnesses" language elsewhere in Scripture. And in my opinion, it has to be the cloud of witnesses based on what’s given in other scripture.

That's the way the Bible works. If it weren't, then any Tom, Dick, or Harry smart person could use carnal knowledge and get more understanding than a simpleton who simply believes the Bible for what it says.
 

IndianaRob

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And if you noticed..no white horse. That's big.
Two things on that. I don't know what the spiritual white horse in Revelation represents yet so it could be in Acts and I haven't recognized it yet. The other thing is, omission in the passage doesn't mean it didn't exist.
 

CrowCross

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Two things on that. I don't know what the spiritual white horse in Revelation represents yet so it could be in Acts and I haven't recognized it yet. The other thing is, omission in the passage doesn't mean it didn't exist.
You know that's not really much of an answer.

I'm sure if Jesus climbed up onto a white horse and ascended....Luke would have said so.
 

IndianaRob

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You know that's not really much of an answer.

I'm sure if Jesus climbed up onto a white horse and ascended....Luke would have said so.
Really. Matthew talked about bodies being unearthed at the cross and coming to life at the resurrection of Jesus. Can you show me Luke's account of that? How about Mark's? How about John's?
 

CrowCross

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Really. Matthew talked about bodies being unearthed at the cross and coming to life at the resurrection of Jesus. Can you show me Luke's account of that? How about Mark's? How about John's?
No.
I don't now why Matthew was the only guy to mention the bodies being unearthed.
On the other hand, you would think one of the 4 would have written about the white horse Jesus left on...IN FACT...Mark wrote about the ascension...19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.....Mark didn't mention a white horse. Why not???
Even Luke had a 2nd chance to mention the white horse in his gospel...but he didn't.... 51 While He was blessing them, He left them and was carried up into heaven. ....Once again no white horse.