Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[David in NJ]

Are you trying to make some sort of point??? If so, speak up.

On this subject, if you desire the Truth, then you need to 'listen UP'

 

[covenantee]

Are you trying to make some sort of point??? If so, speak up.

Certainly.

Your Jesus' double return is not the true truth.

It rejects 18 centuries of recognized Christian orthodox true truth.

 

[CrowCross]

On this subject, if you desire the Truth, then you need to 'listen UP'

You do know if you don't present your point...no one can listen up.

 

[CrowCross]

Certainly.

Your Jesus' double return is not the true truth.

It rejects 18 centuries of recognized Christian orthodox true truth.

Your Christian orthodox has gotten it wrong. A belief in a double return is older than 1800 years.

here is an example...
The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the

Pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and
because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and
tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a
type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves,
and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for
you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of
the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.

There are more as seen throughout the ages...You can visit this site and read them.

CONCLUSION from the article presented in the link above.

I have heard from another scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts
of previously unpublished documents that he has found a number of previously
unknown pre-trib rapture statements from pre-nineteenth century Christendom. He is
planning on publishing his material in a few years. What these pre-Darby rapture
statements prove, if nothing else, is that indeed others did see the rapture taught in
Scripture similar to the way that pretribulationists in our own day teach. Thus, the
argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not
historically true

 

[David in NJ]

You do know if you don't present your point...no one can listen up.

In His Gospel, JESUS told us why HE did not Ascend on a white horse.

In His Gospel, JESUS told us why HE Descends on a white horse.

 

[covenantee]

Your Christian orthodox has gotten it wrong. A belief in a double return is older than 1800 years.

here is an example...
The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the

Pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and
because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and
tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a
type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves,
and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for
you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of
the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.

There's no second second coming. There's not even a first second coming.

Shepherd of Hermas
Vision 2
2[6]:7 Ye therefore that work righteousness be steadfast, and be not double-minded, that ye may have admission with the holy angels. Blessed are ye, as many as endure patiently the great tribulation that cometh, and as many as shall not deny their life.

 

[CrowCross]

There's no second second coming. There's not even a first second coming.

Shepherd of Hermas
Vision 2
2[6]:7 Ye therefore that work righteousness be steadfast, and be not double-minded, that ye may have admission with the holy angels. Blessed are ye, as many as endure patiently the great tribulation that cometh, and as many as shall not deny their life.

Strange...but hey, that's you.

NEXT

 

[covenantee]

Strange...but hey, that's you.

NEXT

Nothing strange about tribulation with no rapture.

That's the Shepherd of Hermas, and the historical Christian Church, and the Word of God.

 

[Earburner]

Your Christian orthodox has gotten it wrong. A belief in a double return is older than 1800 years.

here is an example...
The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the

Pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and
because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and
tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a
type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves,
and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for
you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of
the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.

There are more as seen throughout the ages...You can visit this site and read them.

CONCLUSION from the article presented in the link above.

I have heard from another scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts
of previously unpublished documents that he has found a number of previously
unknown pre-trib rapture statements from pre-nineteenth century Christendom. He is
planning on publishing his material in a few years. What these pre-Darby rapture
statements prove, if nothing else, is that indeed others did see the rapture taught in
Scripture similar to the way that pretribulationists in our own day teach. Thus, the
argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not
historically true

What happened to you? Isn't the Holy Spirit good enough to teach you the Lord's truth, that you should seek "the wisdom of men" in church-ianity to teach you instead?
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Earburner]

post 794. scroll up.​

No!! Post 795. ​

There is no secret rapture, but there are 3 manifestations of Christ.​

1. He came in mortal flesh.
2. He is still coming by His Holy Spirit.
3. He shall come from heaven in flaming fire
.

 

[CrowCross]

Nothing strange about tribulation with no rapture.

That's the Shepherd of Hermas, and the historical Christian Church, and the Word of God.

What-ever dude.

 

[CrowCross]

What happened to you? Isn't the Holy Spirit good enough to teach you the Lord's truth, that you should seek "the wisdom of men" in church-ianity to teach you instead?

The Holy Spirit is telling me and others that the pre-trib rapture is soon.

1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[CrowCross]

No!! Post 795. ​

There is no secret rapture, but there are 3 manifestations of Christ.​

1. He came in mortal flesh.
2. He is still coming by His Holy Spirit.
3. He shall come from heaven in flaming fire
.

What is a secret rapture????

 

[PeterAndroz]

What is a secret rapture????

EB doesn't understand 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:14-17

 

[Truth7t7]

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century.

The relevant Bible translations which it is claimed contain the dogma were all written by Reformers from the 14th to 17th centuries. No Reformer ever heard of a pretrib rapture. Suffering as they were under the apostate papal antichrist, they would have found the idea risibly absurd.

"Ice T." admits one J.S. Mabie as being the first to conjure it in 1859:

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center

Thoroughly debunked here.

Good Work

Yes dispensationalism's "Thomas Ice" is the modern father of this false teaching, he's been pushing it for about the past 25 years now

Apostasia, falling away, defection from truth

Strong’s Definitions KJV: Falling Away
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

("Thomas Ice", False Teacher Below)

Thomas Ice is the Executive Director of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Research Center in Washington, D.C. The Research Center was founded a few years ago by Tim LaHaye and Mr. Ice to research, teach, proclaim, and defend pretribulationism. Thomas Ice’s work is known around the world as the authoritative word on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and End Times Prophecy.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Good Work

Yes dispensationalism's "Thomas Ice" is the modern father of this false teaching, he's been pushing it for about the past 25 years now

Apostasia, falling away, defection from truth

Strong’s Definitions KJV: Falling Away
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

("Thomas Ice", False Teacher Below)

Thomas Ice is the Executive Director of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Research Center in Washington, D.C. The Research Center was founded a few years ago by Tim LaHaye and Mr. Ice to research, teach, proclaim, and defend pretribulationism. Thomas Ice’s work is known around the world as the authoritative word on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and End Times Prophecy.

How would you translate that Greek word in 2 Thess 2:3 ?

 

[Truth7t7]

NOT for the UNBELIEVING JEWS in today's Jerusalem He hasn't.

100% False, Jesus died for the world's sins, including Jews in Jerusalem today

 

[Truth7t7]

How would you translate that Greek word in 2 Thess 2:3 ?
View attachment 87840
View attachment 87841

I read the KJV and the Greek word (Apostasia) means (Defection From Truth) and (Falling Away) or (Departure), both are proper translations

Apostasia, falling away, departure, defection from truth

Strong’s Definitions KJV: Falling Away
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

 

[PeterAndroz]

100% False, Jesus died for the world's sins, including Jews in Jerusalem today

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
For those who believe. eg 1 Cor 15:1-4

 

[PeterAndroz]

I read the KJV and the Greek word (Apostasia) means (Defection From Truth) and (Falling Away) or (Departure), both are proper translations

Apostasia, falling away, departure, defection from truth

Strong’s Definitions KJV: Falling Away
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

Yes, so I'm not sure how people get RAPTURE from apostasia.
Now 1 Thess 4:17 is a different matter
....


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up