MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[amigo de christo]

How can the mark be symbolic in this case, that unless someone has the mark, they are unable to buy and sell? How would it be determined via a symbolic scenario regarding the mark, that this person is allowed to buy and sell but this person isn't?

Let's not forget, with AI now a reality and it's technology rapidly advancing, what may have been seen as fiction prior to AI may no longer be fiction whatsoever.

TBH with you, prior to AI I likely agreed with your view to some degree. But after AI, I don't know anymore. Anything is possible now, even what seemed impossible prior to AI.

Yes indeed my friend . let us examine this AI and exactly what it can do and will run and have power over .
AI . produces any image and said image can SPEAK and do so in any language known to man .
AI . will run the digital system . Digital system can cut off anyone from buying and selling .
AI , is all over the place . has cameras , in phones , computers .
AI , thus can route ANY conversation , any writing it deems to a data base
that can then send an alert TO ANY POLICE station .
SO what can AI do . it can c ause all who do not conform to be killed .
Cause what most folks DO NOT realize is
Lets say lil johhnie was typing away on his computer and wrote to a group
that JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY . Now instantly due to INCLUSIVISM
that will be routed to a data base as , offensive , as hate , as etc
THEN .................
Little johnny goes to bed but in the night he hears a rapping and a tapping at his chamber door .
And behold its not a raven , though they be dressed in the black color of a rav en .
AND a voice from outside says , OPEN THE DOOR
ye have been deemed as a potentital terroist and are hereby ordered to go with us
to your re education camp . ONLY let us know and undersetand
by RE education it simply means , CONFORM and get released or DIE . OH ITS coming .
THE BEAST will sure the worship of its inclusive god , who is none other than the devil .

 

[amigo de christo]

OR or AND no big difference ? :)
1 Cor 15:1-4
To be saved you must :-
believe that Christ died for your sins
AND ? or OR ?
that He was buried
AND ? or OR ?
that He rose from the dead
...
Is it ALL 3 OR just one is enough ?

Oh its all my friend . And let us know this as well ,
Be sure its THE JESUS one follows , loves and beleives .
For if any jesus presented by man contradicts the WORDS OF JESUS in said bible
ITS the wrong jesus and wont be saving didly or doo .
WHY was israel NOW ALLOWED into the promised land .
I SAY again WHY was ISRAEL not allowed into the promised land but had to wander the desert
till all who had ........................DIED . THEY was never getting into the promised land .
WHY .
Was it cause they said HEY WE DONT BELIEVE IN THE GOD of the jews
OR was it because they DID NOT BELIEVE HIM .
OH ITS THE LATTER my friend . THEY did not BELEIVE WHAT HE SAID .
Just like many today seem to not beleive THINGS JESUS said . oh but can surely cliam to BELEIVE ON HIM .

 

[amigo de christo]

Exactly, and when one understands what the number of the beast means, then it all becomes clear, and the mark becomes clear too. The problem is I have yet to run across another person (on forums) who will accept counting the number as the Bible says — even though the result of counting the number is very telling, people still won't believe it.

I don’t t even attempt to explain it anymore.

Six HUNDRED three score and six .
MEANING SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX . some of us learned english . Went to library and examined
the beginning of our own langauge and throughout the old , middle , early modern and modern .
IT MEANS SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX .
And the name of the beast ADDS UP to that . that is the number of his name .

 

[amigo de christo]

ITs not SIX , SIX , SIX .
ITS Six hundred and sixty six . And that is what its name adds up too .
That is the number o the beast and of his name .
and the dragon gave him A seat and great power . Gee , i wonder if the seat , the title , adds up to six hundred and sixty six .
THERE is such a place already . and that same place has led this world
RIGHT INTO ecumeincal interfaith interreligious dialgoue , OF AN ANTI Christ . ANTI CHRIST
denying the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
And now a word .
WHO is a liar , HE who d enies JESUS IS THE CHRIST , HE IS ANTI CHRIST . mayhaps we farther along that most folks realize .
AND DONT Forget about AI , the digital system . OH we much farther along than most realize all right

 

[CrowCross]

Oh boy. Here it is in simplest terms.

666 isn't just 6-6-6

Everyone reads 666 as "six hundred sixty-six" — 6 hundreds, 6 tens, 6 ones. Fine. But that's not the only way to count it.

Count it as 66 tens + 6 ones.
66 = books of the Bible.
6 = number of man.
666 = man added to the Word of God.

No interpretation needed it says what it says.

You're speculating.
heck, you could have just as easily said...it's about carbon...what man is made of.
carbon has:
6 electrons.
6 protons
6 neutrons.

 

[IndianaRob]

Before i answer the question.....what is a dispensationalist? In your opinion.

No more negatively than most common views. I’m asking because my response will be based on which narrative you follow.

Six HUNDRED three score and six .
MEANING SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX . some of us learned english . Went to library and examined
the beginning of our own langauge and throughout the old , middle , early modern and modern .
IT MEANS SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX .
And the name of the beast ADDS UP to that . that is the number of his name .

It’s the number of a man right? So the beast is a collection or group of men.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[IndianaRob]

You're speculating.
heck, you could have just as easily said...it's about carbon...what man is made of.
carbon has:
6 electrons.
6 protons
6 neutrons.

Did the Bible tell you to count subatomic particles or the number 666?

 

[IndianaRob]

@CrowCross
My post to you about the view you hold didn’t send when I thought it did so it sent with another post to amigo. Post 126.

 

[amigo de christo]

You're speculating.
heck, you could have just as easily said...it's about carbon...what man is made of.
carbon has:
6 electrons.
6 protons
6 neutrons.

IT tells us . SIX HUNDRED , three score which is sixty , and six . plain early modern english .
Yes some of us went to library to read for ourselves and learn about our english langauge .
AND by doing so , I can easily prove what i KNEW they all were dead wrong ab out . THEY LIED TO US
they LIED TO US ALL . t rying to make it seem like the kjv or other older bibles and their english was messed up .
I went way back . I SEEN even OLD english with word for word english of scriptures .
THEY LIED TO US . and lied to us they surely did . THEM Older english bibles are JUST FINE my friend .
ITs the newer ones i seen problems in . Though not all are as bad as others .
You actually should have seen our langauge in its RUINC written form . NOt a one here would grasp it
SOME words , but very few . But as the gospel was spread they came to ol briton
and were surpised to see BELIEVERS already there . And then they made more converts
and b egan to give english the latin alphabet . Early on there was no letter for the sound TH so they left the P for thorn .
That was in old and some middle english. now middle english is easier to read , but look out for the spelling
and the spelling even in early modern english . TILL we eventually came up with a universal spellling of words .
we even went through a great vowel change . We have lots of french influence , of course latin
due to around the latter end of one thousand Ad , french influence became quite heavy
and words like cwen became QUEEN and so on . from old to middle we also lost a lot of our plural EN endings on words
CEPT for OXEN . we stilll use OX an Oxen to this day . You can learn a lot by reading , NOT SO MUCH on GOOGLE
and under sold out scholars .

 

[CrowCross]

No more negatively than most common views. I’m asking because my response will be based on which narrative you follow.

Are you NOT going to tell me your definition of dispensationalism is?
I can't say yes or no if you don't tell me what you say it means.

 

[amigo de christo]

No more negatively than most common views. I’m asking because my response will be based on which narrative you follow.

It’s the number of a man right? So the beast is a collection or group of men.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

you mean the beast that WAS and yet IS NOT and YET is ...........
very very strange is that langauge my friend .
HERE is what MOST do not know .
AND I saw THREE SPIRITS come out of the mouth of the beast , fp and etc
THEY ARE SPIRITS sent forth to decieve the kings of this earth and the world .
IN OTHER WORDS
JUST LIKE JESUS SAID , there would be MANY FALSE PROPHETS , oh but they are all of the FALSE PROPHET
many are looking for a hollywood beast , hollywood Anti christ , holly wood FP .
BUT what i say to one i say to all , ITS ALREADY HERE and at work , and soon
by means of the AI digital system will this hour hit its peak hour
and the law of the inclusive god will become law and enforce . Sadly many already think this inclusive god is GOD
but it be satan , and many think this ecmenical intefaith peace is of GOD , but oh no its of many anti christs
preparing the religoins and christendom and the world to merge as one mind and one heart .
WE ALL GETTING DUPED friend . Satan knew and knows HOW to say GOD IS LOVE and TO PUT a love
contrary TO THE LOVE OF GOD . HE DID IT and so did his co workers . THEY have left the chruches
in stitches and in ditches unable now to even discern what it is they lost and theythemselves are lost .

 

[IndianaRob]

you mean the beast that WAS and yet IS NOT and YET is ...........
very very strange is that langauge my friend .
HERE is what MOST do not know .
AND I saw THREE SPIRITS come out of the mouth of the beast , fp and etc
THEY ARE SPIRITS sent forth to decieve the kings of this earth and the world .
IN OTHER WORDS
JUST LIKE JESUS SAID , there would be MANY FALSE PROPHETS , oh but they are all of the FALSE PROPHET
many are looking for a hollywood beast , hollywood Anti christ , holly wood FP .
BUT what i say to one i say to all , ITS ALREADY HERE and at work , and soon
by means of the AI digital system will this hour hit its peak hour
and the law of the inclusive god will become law and enforce . Sadly many already think this inclusive god is GOD
but it be satan , and many think this ecmenical intefaith peace is of GOD , but oh no its of many anti christs
preparing the religoins and christendom and the world to merge as one mind and one heart .
WE ALL GETTING DUPED friend . Satan knew and knows HOW to say GOD IS LOVE and TO PUT a love
contrary TO THE LOVE OF GOD . HE DID IT and so did his co workers . THEY have left the chruches
in stitches and in ditches unable now to even discern what it is they lost and theythemselves are lost .

Hold tight on that oneAmigo. I need to get beat up some more on the number and repenting from the mark first.

 

[Anchorite]

Not responding to anyone in particular, here, but here are some of my thoughts on what has been discussed...

We talk about athletes having the mark of greatness, or the mark of a champion, right? Is that because they have certain scars, or tattoos, or even brands... visible imprints of some kind on their skin, that in effect say, "I am great," or "I am a champion"...? No, right? Is it not a quality about them, and thus what they do that enables everyone to see they have these qualities about them? Yes, and so it is with the mark of the beast.
These are all willful acts on the part of those who have the "mark of the beast," so yes, they do take it, and willingly. So, I wouldn't call it "symbolic," but rather a quality... a characteristic, or an attribute... a devotion to unrighteousness... that will be or is evident in what they say and do to all, so "on their foreheads" in that respect. In the opposite manner that we who are in Christ are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1) and thus walk in this newness of life that we have been given.

Your interpretation of the mark of the beast is nonsensical. It is typical of people who want to go along with having a computer chip implant or RFID tattoo, so they can conduct financial transactions, and not worry about being cast into the lake of fire.

How would a characteristic or devotion enable a person to buy and sell? A person could fake having the required personal qualities. While unrighteousness attitudes are involved with those who take the mark, the mark is physical, based on the understanding of marks in the ancient world.

If the motb was just a mental disposition, the book of Revelation could have stated it that way.

The mark of the beast is an allusion either to the custom among the Romans of imprinting marks upon their servants and soldiers, by which they might be known to whom they belonged; servants had them in their foreheads, and soldiers in their hands.

It might allude to the usages of the Jews in binding their phylacteries upon their arms and foreheads, to put them in mind of the law of God, and their obedience to it; or to the practices of the Heathens, in putting the mark of the god they worshipped upon their bodies.

Maimonides says it was a custom with the Gentiles to mark themselves with their idols, showing that they were their bought servants, and were marked for their service.

The sense is that some received the mark in one place, and some in another.

Those who were obliged to receive the mark in the right hand seem to be the clergy, such who entered into holy orders; who lifted up their right hand, and swore and vowed allegiance to the pope, and testified they were ready to defend and support his religion and interest; and who in their ordination are said to have an indelible character impressed on them.

Those who received the mark in their foreheads are the common people in general, who one and all have the same impress upon them.

Current identification, surveillance, and financial transaction technology can fulfill the mark of the beast. No symbolic interpretation is required when the physical implementation is now available.

In the past, the idea of needing a certain mark in order to buy and sell may not have made a lot of sense. People used gold, gems, coins, and cash to engage in financial dealings.

But today, people in Switzerland are already using an injectable payment chip implant in their hand to purchase items in stores.

Secure payment chip implants (like those from Walletmor) are often priced around $300.

 

[PinSeeker]

Oh boy. Here it is in simplest terms.

666 isn't just 6-6-6

Everyone reads 666 as "six hundred sixty-six" — 6 hundreds, 6 tens, 6 ones. Fine. But that's not the only way to count it.

Count it as 66 tens + 6 ones.
66 = books of the Bible.
6 = number of man.
666 = man added to the Word of God.

No interpretation needed it says what it says.

Yeah, I agree with your "oh boy." <smile> Yeah, so, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what you say here, but why do you say this, Rob?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

But today, people in Switzerland are already using an injectable payment chip implant in their hand to purchase items in stores.

Trial grounds....kinda like a frog in a kettle.
Pretty soon it will be somewhat normal...then mandatory....as prophesied in Rev 13.

Thing is 1/4 of the population dies in Rev 6 then a 1/3 in Rev 8.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your interpretation of the mark of the beast is nonsensical.

<chuckles>

How would a characteristic or devotion enable a person to buy and sell?

Ah, well, so, to your question here, Anchorite, I would question what you mean by "buying" and "selling"...? <smile> That's really rhetorical; I know... I understand... what you're saying. But to what you say here, and in answer to my question, here, actually... in a certain way... I'm not buying or selling what you say here. <smile> I would say, using the very words of your question, this devotion ~ which, again, is not merely or even primarily mental; it cannot be, as the mental is only the effect of the devotion ~ causes the person to... "buy" and "sell."

...the mark is physical, based on the understanding of marks in the ancient world.

I disagree, of course, that it is physical, but I do agree regarding it being based on the understanding of marks in the ancient world... and the modern world, actually. I'm not sure I would say "based on," though... Images are powerful tools, and John uses them throughout Revelation.

If the motb was just a mental disposition, the book of Revelation could have stated it that way.

It does... although not a mental disposition... <smile> But I agree with you in the sense that the mark will be fully manifest in each who has it... <smile>

The mark of the beast is an allusion either to the custom among the Romans of imprinting marks upon their servants and soldiers, by which they might be known to whom they belonged; servants had them in their foreheads, and soldiers in their hands.

It might allude to the usages of the Jews in binding their phylacteries upon their arms and foreheads, to put them in mind of the law of God, and their obedience to it; or to the practices of the Heathens, in putting the mark of the god they worshipped upon their bodies.

Maimonides says it was a custom with the Gentiles to mark themselves with their idols, showing that they were their bought servants, and were marked for their service.

The sense is that some received the mark in one place, and some in another.

Those who were obliged to receive the mark in the right hand seem to be the clergy, such who entered into holy orders; who lifted up their right hand, and swore and vowed allegiance to the pope, and testified they were ready to defend and support his religion and interest; and who in their ordination are said to have an indelible character impressed on them.

Those who received the mark in their foreheads are the common people in general, who one and all have the same impress upon them.

Current identification, surveillance, and financial transaction technology can fulfill the mark of the beast. No symbolic interpretation is required when the physical implementation is now available.

In the past, the idea of needing a certain mark in order to buy and sell may not have made a lot of sense. People used gold, gems, coins, and cash to engage in financial dealings.

But today, people in Switzerland are already using an injectable payment chip implant in their hand to purchase items in stores.

Secure payment chip implants (like those from Walletmor) are often priced around $300

I agree with this... in a certain way. <smile> This may seem like a total non sequitur to you, Anchorite, but... well, is Jesus a bronze serpent on a pole? <smile> Or... You know well, I'm sure, that Jesus made seven ~ seven! ~ great "I AM" statements, recorded by John in his gospel. Just taking one of them, is Jesus a loaf of bread? Again, rhetorical...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can the mark be symbolic in this case, that unless someone has the mark, they are unable to buy and sell? How would it be determined via a symbolic scenario regarding the mark, that this person is allowed to buy and sell but this person isn't?

Let's not forget, with AI now a reality and it's technology rapidly advancing, what may have been seen as fiction prior to AI may no longer be fiction whatsoever.

TBH with you, prior to AI I likely agreed with your view to some degree. But after AI, I don't know anymore. Anything is possible now, even what seemed impossible prior to AI.

Why does buying and selling have to relate to buying and selling material things? Revelation is a highly symbolic book, so why assume that it talking about the literal buying and selling of merchandise?

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it, Also wisdom and instruction and understanding.

Verses like this one show that buying and selling can be understood in a figurative sense. Having the mark of the beast and worshiping the beast go hand in hand. Revelation 13:8 says that those who worship the beast are those whose names are not written in the book of life. So, having the mark of the beast means you're not saved. How can the ability to purchase material things have anything to do with whether you're saved or not? It can't. So, I believe not being able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast means that no one can freely buy or sell their beliefs/philosophies/religion without the mark of the beast. Which means those trying to sell (preach) the truth (the gospel) are met with severe opposition that tries to prevent anyone from buying (accepting, believing) it. Spiritual truths are repeatedly illustrated symbolically in the book of Revelation. Taking these things literally results in some unbiblical conclusions such as thinking that having the literal ability to buy or sell merchandise could somehow determine whether someone is saved or not (has their name written in the book of life or not).

 

[IndianaRob]

Yeah, I agree with your "oh boy." <smile> Yeah, so, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what you say here, but why do you say this, Rob?

Grace and peace to you.

I say that because the bible said to count the number. There is only one way to count a number as far as I know.

 

[IndianaRob]

>>>>"I think "receive" doesn't mean receive — that it can describe something later reversed through repentance.
Please list the relevant Scripture that has led you to your conclusion.

Sorry for the delay, Peter. Here are a couple of reasons:

Rev 16:9-11 — the marked/beast-worshippers are struck with plagues and "blasphemed the name of God... and repented not to give him glory" / "repented not of their deeds." John frames it as a refusal, not an impossibility. You don't rebuke someone for refusing a door that was never open.

Scripture only names one sin as unforgivable — blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt 12:31-32) — and that's arguably not something a believer can even commit. Nothing singles out the mark as a second exception.

 

[PinSeeker]

I say that because the bible said to count the number. There is only one way to count a number as far as I know.

Hmmmm. Okay, thanks. But... well, James, in talking about trials in the first chapter of his epistle, says "count it all joy, brothers..." Yes, the text in Revelation 13 (ESV) says, "calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man," for sure, but might this be a "counting" or even a "calculation" in a different sense? So then therefore that "number" could actually be something other than an actual number like one, two, or six...? By the same token, we can talk about the sum or the sum total of something, but we're not actually talking about a literal number at all, but a... fullness, or a completeness, or a totality... all that a thing ~ in the case of Revelation 13 a man ~ is... right? So the full measure of a man...? So I would offer this:

The number 666 falls short of the divine completeness of seven. When we expect 777, we get a consistent falling short in 666. Thus 666 has an obvious symbolic value. But there may be a further association. In both Hebrew and Greek a numerical value was associated with each letter of the alphabet. In Greek, A had value 1, B 2, I 10, K 20, and so on. The letters were sometimes used as a shorthand for numbers, and both Jews and pagans sometimes played arithmetical games with the numerical value of whole words. Christians found that the name Jesus had numerical value 888 in Greek. Hence, the number 666 also makes a contrast with the name of Jesus (see Revelation 14:1 ~ "Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads"). Jesus is the Christ, who brings in the new creation on the eighth day. The Beast is the Antichrist, who counterfeits Christ but falls short. And you know what this same John who wrote Revelation said in one of his epistles about antichrists... "you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come" (1 John 2:18)...

Grace and peace to you.