Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[Lizbeth]

Rom.10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Who am I to refute what the scriptures say. To quote Smith Wigglesworth, "The Bible says it, I believe it."
If you are NOT DEAD, you have been saved.

Now, back to my questions please.

Sister, have a look at Psalm 88. Take note of what darkness is talking about in that psalm: grave, death, pit, wrath, destruction.

 

[MostlyConfused]

This latest argument is silly. There IS an outer darkness. It DOES seem in some verses to be forever. It’s different than annihilation. It kind of shows that we (if we have begun to see ourselves with any more truth and clarity) had better proceed with caution and consider who we are dealing with.

 

[shepherdsword]

This latest argument is silly. There IS an outer darkness. It DOES seem in some verses to be forever. It’s different than annihilation. It kind of shows that we (if we have begun to see ourselves with any more truth and clarity) had better proceed with caution and consider who we are dealing with.

Pretty sure there is no "annihilation" I hope there is but the scripture indicates otherwise:

Mk 9:44-48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Rv 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rv 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Pretty sure there is no "annihilation" I hope there is but the scripture indicates otherwise:

Mk 9:44-48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Rv 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rv 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So then you think men are born with eternal life in them. Many do think that.

I have wondered about the verse that seems to say at a future time men will want to die and won’t be able to, if maybe they were ones who took the mark (whatever that is). It seems like a repeat of whatever genetic manipulation went on to produce the giants. I had considered that their spirits are actually what demons ARE. It’s a big mystery how they (demons) seem to have a life that doesn’t die. And Satan seems to also have that eternity in him.
I don’t know, I just think we look at everything humanly and in linear time and miss a lot because of it. Not that we can help doing it, we ARE human. But we CAN consider that we may not be understanding and so not be so adamantly sure about everything. As an example, a lot of what God said, from a human seeing, did not happen, but that’s because they thought they understood what God said - like telling Abraham he would give all that land to him or even the disciples asking Jesus if He would now give the kingdom back to Israel. Don’t know if I was too clear there or not.

 

[ProDeo]

I agree that to my human understanding it doesn’t seem saved to me. But there could be things we don’t understand about it. Maybe some escape it after receiving stripes. Maybe some come out after they have payed the last farthing like in the parable.

Of course you can be right, we can't imagine how it will be. Only that God's judgements will be right and we will understand His judgements will be right. Also about the new things the Lord might do in afterlife, we have no clue.

I think a possible place about outer darkness -

Rev 22:15 - Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Outside the city of light.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Of course you can be right, we can't imagine how it will be. Only that God's judgements will be right and we will understand His judgements will be right. Also about the new things the Lord might do in afterlife, we have no clue.

I think a possible hint about outer darkness -

Rev 22:15 - Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Outside the city of light.

Yeah…I just have a big jumble when I read future things. Like, is it before or after the 1000 years, before or after death is done away with. Because during the 1000 years there is still at least some death if I read the verse correctly. Just a jumble. I don’t think as much about it as I used to or read any books on it. They all seem to be championing one aspect without considering other aspects or verses.

 

[bdavidc]

In A Description of the Qualifications Necessary to A Gospel Minister by Samuel Bownas 1750, (p6-7)he writes:

"For no man can be righteous and wicked at one time; we must first be brought out of the bondage of corruption under spiritual Pharoh and Egypt, into the wilderness, before we can offer acceptably unto God. This state is figuratively called a wilderness, a way we have not trod in, showing thereby the necessity of depending on our guide, our spiritual Moses, that must go before and take care of our support.

For in this wilderness state we have no food, no water, no right refreshment but what this leader provides and administers to us.

In this start we can neither pray, nor do any religious act without the direction of our leader, so far that we find the case is much altered with us to do what was in time past. For then, we could pray, sing, preach and perform other religious duties in our own time, feeding and satisfying ourselves therewith, but now we are brought into the wilderness, where there is neither ploughing nor sowing.

We can't help ourselves by our own contrivance and workings of our own wills but here we must live a life of faith wholly dependant on Him that will (if we faint not in our minds) bring us through to the heavenly Cannan. Thus we will come in the Lord's time to experience the substance of those types and figures under that legal dispensation to be substantially and spiritually fulfilled in our own minds by the operation of the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ, the substance and foundation of all true religion and ministry that is really profitable to the hearers."

Not all believers are trained in this way for the true ministry.

You were asked a simple question: Where does Scripture teach these symbolic meanings? Instead of answering from Scripture, you quoted Samuel Bownas from 1750 assigning still more meanings to Pharaoh, Egypt, Moses, the wilderness, and Canaan.

That does not answer the question. Samuel Bownas is not Scripture. Quoting another man who used the same method you are using does not prove your interpretation. It only proves that someone else made the same kind of claims.

Scripture says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction” (2 Timothy 3:16). It does not say that Samuel Bownas, you, or anyone else may supply hidden meanings that the text itself never identifies and then call those meanings spiritual truth. Paul said we are “not to think of men above that which is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). That is exactly where this discussion keeps going wrong. You keep going beyond what is written.

There is nothing wrong with seeing an illustration or making a devotional comparison as long as you admit that is what you are doing. But you are doing much more than that. You are taking Egypt, Pharaoh, the wilderness, Jordan, Canaan, fire, altars, pierced ears, treasure, pearls, and other things, assigning them specific stages and meanings, and then presenting the resulting system as something spiritually discerned by the Holy Spirit. That is not biblical exposition. It is a symbolic system imposed upon the Bible.

And now you say, “Not all believers are trained in this way for the true ministry.” Where does Scripture say that? Paul gave qualifications for ministers in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. He did not require an inward spiritual journey through symbolic Egypt, wilderness, Jordan, and Canaan. If you are going to make this a mark of “true ministry,” then you had better be able to show where the apostles taught it.

You cannot escape the problem by appealing to the Holy Spirit. Scripture commands us, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1). How do we test spiritual claims? By accepting them because they sound deep and mystical? No. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. He does not need Samuel Bownas or anyone else to complete it by supplying meanings God never revealed in the text. Calling an interpretation “spiritual” does not make it biblical.

This is especially serious when you present these things publicly as qualifications for true Christian ministry. Scripture warns teachers: “My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation” (James 3:1). Teaching carries accountability before God. That is why this matters.

So this is where I am leaving it: stop giving me quotations from men when I am asking you for the Word of God. If Scripture teaches that Pharaoh represents this, Jordan represents that, Canaan represents another stage, and this entire progression is necessary training for true ministry, then show the passages that actually say so.

If you cannot, then stop presenting these interpretations as though the Holy Spirit revealed them in Scripture. You are going beyond what is written, and no amount of spiritual language can turn man's interpretation into God's Word.

 

[bdavidc]

Please test this.

Sure. You accuse others of taking verses out of context while you invent a “MERITOCRACY aspect” of salvation that Scripture never teaches. Romans 4:5 says God justifies the one who “worketh not, but believeth.” Romans 11:6 says if it is by grace, “then is it no more of works.” Ephesians 2:8-9 says salvation is “not of works.”

You are not correcting Scripture. You are forcing Scripture to fit your theology. Worse, you claimed you were correcting others “by the very same inspiration” by which Paul wrote. That is not biblical authority. That is arrogance. Scripture says, “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” (Proverbs 30:6).

You are teaching falsely about the gospel. Works follow salvation. They do not merit it, complete it, or maintain it.

Stop accusing others of mishandling Scripture while you rewrite it to fit your own doctrine.