The good man that turned bad out of necessity
- Thread starter Riven
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It‘s very important to me.
The role of the followers of Jesus is to save souls, not to destroy them.
The role of the civil government is to protect souls, not to save them. That role requires destroying souls when necessary.
It wasn’t for those being tortured and killed by Christians.
“Tortured and killed by Christians” - how far away from the teaching of Jesus and the apostles we are.
The civil government is responsible for maintaining order and protecting its citizens. That hasn’t changed.
Because the church drifted away - in the 4th century - from the teaching of Paul on the relationship between the followers of Jesus and the civil government / state (Romans 13:1-4), what has changed is Christians acting in a way which Paul never imagined they would.
”We [Christians] do not use the weapons of the world.” That was then.
“Oh yes we [Christians] do, Paul.“ This is now.
I’m pointing people back to Paul.
“It was ignorance of the fact that Christ was to come two times that confused the Jews. They expected Him, at His first coming, to fulfill the prophecies concerning His kingship. But, no! He came the first time to suffer; He will come the second time to reign. He came the first time in weakness; He will come the second time in power. He came the first time in meekness; He will come the second time in resplendent glory and majesty as King.”
(B.R. Lakin, You Can Be Sure: Six Timely Sermons, p. 74)
What are the followers of Jesus supposed to do? Wait patiently and expectantly for Jesus to return.
He came the first time to suffer. Until he returns, followers of Jesus suffer.
He will come the second time to reign. When he does, his followers will reign with him.
He came the first time in weakness. Until he returns, followers of Jesus live in weakness.
He will come the second time in power. When he does, followers of Jesus will be in power.
He came the first time in meekness. Until he returns, followers of Jesus live in meekness.
He will come the second time in resplendent glory and majesty as king. When he does, followers of Jesus will have resplendent glory and majesty as kings.
The church tired of waiting for Jesus. Followers of Jesus must not.
The kingdoms of the world aren’t yet the kingdom of God. They will be. When Jesus returns.
“Jesus did not sit upon the throne of David at His first coming.”
(B.R. Lakin, You Can Be Sure: Six Timely Sermons, p. 75)
We can be sure that he will; when he returns.
What’s that you say? You don’t want to wait for him to return? You don’t want to wait to rule the world with him? You want to rule the world now? Without him sitting on the throne of his Father David in Jerusalem?
You aren’t alone. There were Christians in the middle of the 1st century who wanted that too. Paul dealt with it.
AI Overview -
“In 1 Corinthians 4:8, the Apostle Paul sharply rebukes the believers in Corinth for their arrogance. He criticizes those who were acting as if they had already achieved ultimate glory, wealth, and authority, challenging them to adopt a posture of humility and service rather than premature triumph.
The Context of Paul’s Rebuke
• The Corinthians’ Attitude: The Corinthian church had embraced a false sense of spiritual arrival. They believed they were already ‘rich’ and reigning as kings, possessing all wisdom and spiritual gifts without needing further refinement.
• Paul’s Contrast: In verses 9-13, Paul uses biting irony to contrast their perceived elevated status with the harsh reality of the apostles’ lives. While the Corinthians boasted in their spiritual status, Paul and his companions were enduring poverty, persecution, and being treated as the ‘scum of the earth’.
• The Already / Not Yet Tension: Paul reminds them that the Christian life on earth is a time of endurance and suffering for the sake of the Gospel. The time for reigning and glory had not yet arrived; it is reserved for the future return of Christ.
Key Theological Themes
• Spiritual Pride vs. Humility: Paul warns against mistaking spiritual gifts or worldly success for spiritual maturity. True maturity looks like Christ-like humility and love.
• The Fellowship of Suffering: Paul argues that sharing in Christ’s sufferings is a necessary precursor to sharing His glory.
• Apostolic Example: He holds up the hardships of the apostles as the true model for Christian living, challenging the Corinthians’ obsession with power and status.”
Wait for Jesus.
(B.R. Lakin, You Can Be Sure: Six Timely Sermons, p. 75)
We can be sure that he will; when he returns.
What’s that you say? You don’t want to wait for him to return? You don’t want to wait to rule the world with him? You want to rule the world now? Without him sitting on the throne of his Father David in Jerusalem?
You aren’t alone. There were Christians in the middle of the 1st century who wanted that too. Paul dealt with it.
AI Overview -
“In 1 Corinthians 4:8, the Apostle Paul sharply rebukes the believers in Corinth for their arrogance. He criticizes those who were acting as if they had already achieved ultimate glory, wealth, and authority, challenging them to adopt a posture of humility and service rather than premature triumph.
The Context of Paul’s Rebuke
• The Corinthians’ Attitude: The Corinthian church had embraced a false sense of spiritual arrival. They believed they were already ‘rich’ and reigning as kings, possessing all wisdom and spiritual gifts without needing further refinement.
• Paul’s Contrast: In verses 9-13, Paul uses biting irony to contrast their perceived elevated status with the harsh reality of the apostles’ lives. While the Corinthians boasted in their spiritual status, Paul and his companions were enduring poverty, persecution, and being treated as the ‘scum of the earth’.
• The Already / Not Yet Tension: Paul reminds them that the Christian life on earth is a time of endurance and suffering for the sake of the Gospel. The time for reigning and glory had not yet arrived; it is reserved for the future return of Christ.
Key Theological Themes
• Spiritual Pride vs. Humility: Paul warns against mistaking spiritual gifts or worldly success for spiritual maturity. True maturity looks like Christ-like humility and love.
• The Fellowship of Suffering: Paul argues that sharing in Christ’s sufferings is a necessary precursor to sharing His glory.
• Apostolic Example: He holds up the hardships of the apostles as the true model for Christian living, challenging the Corinthians’ obsession with power and status.”
Wait for Jesus.
“He did not come, the first time, to take over the government.”
(B.R. Lakin, You Can Be Sure: Six Timely Sermons, p. 74)
He will when he comes the second time.
The followers of Jesus have a role in government.
In the government of Nero? In the government that will be taken over by the Messiah?
No.
In the government of the Messiah. When he returns.
”For a child is born to us. A son is given to us; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on David’s throne, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from that time on, even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Armies will perform this.”
(Isaiah 9:6-7, WEB)
P.S.
The Great Commission -> government recruiting.
(B.R. Lakin, You Can Be Sure: Six Timely Sermons, p. 74)
He will when he comes the second time.
The followers of Jesus have a role in government.
In the government of Nero? In the government that will be taken over by the Messiah?
No.
In the government of the Messiah. When he returns.
”For a child is born to us. A son is given to us; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on David’s throne, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from that time on, even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Armies will perform this.”
(Isaiah 9:6-7, WEB)
P.S.
The Great Commission -> government recruiting.
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@Riven I’d like for you to take a look at something.
* Not to mention, dishonest *
If you can get past that for a moment, do you know who the man in the photograph is?
If you were a Christian living in North Korea you might very well have this portrait hanging on the wall in your living room. You might have several photographs of him in your home, in your workplace, and you would see them all around you in public.
Through the power of your imagination, you’re there. (And you’re Christian, in an underground Christian church.)
How should you relate to this government?
Turn, with the underground church, in your Bible to Romans 13:1 -
”Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God.” (KJ21)
Since the word “ordained“ is too strong for you, let’s look at another translation. If I recall correctly, the Bible translation you use is NIV.
”Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
The word “established” sits in the place of the updated King James “ordained”.
If you’re still listening to me, let’s pick it up in verse 2 and read through verse 5 in your NIV.
”Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary for you to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.”
The government has commanded you to do something which is contrary to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. What are you going to do?
* Not to mention, dishonest *
If you can get past that for a moment, do you know who the man in the photograph is?
If you were a Christian living in North Korea you might very well have this portrait hanging on the wall in your living room. You might have several photographs of him in your home, in your workplace, and you would see them all around you in public.
Through the power of your imagination, you’re there. (And you’re Christian, in an underground Christian church.)
How should you relate to this government?
Turn, with the underground church, in your Bible to Romans 13:1 -
”Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God.” (KJ21)
Since the word “ordained“ is too strong for you, let’s look at another translation. If I recall correctly, the Bible translation you use is NIV.
”Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
The word “established” sits in the place of the updated King James “ordained”.
If you’re still listening to me, let’s pick it up in verse 2 and read through verse 5 in your NIV.
”Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary for you to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.”
The government has commanded you to do something which is contrary to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. What are you going to do?
Is it illegal to own a Bible in North Korea?
AI Overview -
“Yes, the Bible is strictly banned in North Korea. The North Korean government views Christianity and independent religious activities as a severe political threat to the ruling Kim family.
Law and Penalties
• Owning, importing, printing, or distributing a Bible is illegal.
• Under laws like the Anti-Reactionary Thought and Culture Law, getting caught with a Bible can lead to severe penalties, including life imprisonment in brutal labor camps, torture, or execution.
• The state targets not just the individual with the book, but also their family members.
The Reality of Religion
• While the North Korean constitution technically claims to allow freedom of religion, human rights groups and defectors report this is false.
• State-sanctioned churches exist in Pyongyang, but watchdogs like Open Doors note these are largely for show or foreign visitors, while local citizens face extreme persecution for any unapproved faith.
• Despite the ban, some secret underground networks manage to hide and read fragments of scripture at extreme personal risk.”
@Riven do you see any parallels between the persecuted Christians living under Nero and the persecuted Christians living under Kim Jung Un?
Studying how Christians lived and related to the pagan Roman Empire can guide us in how to live and relate to oppressive civil government.
You don’t think Christians living in the US have been or ever will be persecuted by the government? If so, let’s talk about it.
AI Overview -
“Yes, the Bible is strictly banned in North Korea. The North Korean government views Christianity and independent religious activities as a severe political threat to the ruling Kim family.
Law and Penalties
• Owning, importing, printing, or distributing a Bible is illegal.
• Under laws like the Anti-Reactionary Thought and Culture Law, getting caught with a Bible can lead to severe penalties, including life imprisonment in brutal labor camps, torture, or execution.
• The state targets not just the individual with the book, but also their family members.
The Reality of Religion
• While the North Korean constitution technically claims to allow freedom of religion, human rights groups and defectors report this is false.
• State-sanctioned churches exist in Pyongyang, but watchdogs like Open Doors note these are largely for show or foreign visitors, while local citizens face extreme persecution for any unapproved faith.
• Despite the ban, some secret underground networks manage to hide and read fragments of scripture at extreme personal risk.”
@Riven do you see any parallels between the persecuted Christians living under Nero and the persecuted Christians living under Kim Jung Un?
Studying how Christians lived and related to the pagan Roman Empire can guide us in how to live and relate to oppressive civil government.
You don’t think Christians living in the US have been or ever will be persecuted by the government? If so, let’s talk about it.
@Riven you aren’t the only member on the forum that I’ve been discussing this issue with. I’d like to share with you what another Christian has said about Nero. (Sorry it contains the word “ordained” - it’s fine to think “established” when you see it.)
“Nero being emperor when Romans was written only proves that a wicked, psychotic, pagan ruler can possess God-ordained governmental authority, it does not prove that wicked ruler’s every act suddenly becomes ‘God-ordained righteousness’.”
He’s right.
Nero. Hitler. Stalin. (Feel free to add others.)
God’s servant / minister: put in place, established, instituted, appointed, authorized - I’ll leave out the “o” word - whom Paul instructs followers of Jesus living under their government regime how to relate to.
“Nero being emperor when Romans was written only proves that a wicked, psychotic, pagan ruler can possess God-ordained governmental authority, it does not prove that wicked ruler’s every act suddenly becomes ‘God-ordained righteousness’.”
He’s right.
Nero. Hitler. Stalin. (Feel free to add others.)
God’s servant / minister: put in place, established, instituted, appointed, authorized - I’ll leave out the “o” word - whom Paul instructs followers of Jesus living under their government regime how to relate to.
Thank you, but I didn’t share that with you for the purpose of impressing you. I barely scratched the surface of what happened to me when I refused to obey the government. I paid a very high price, and so did my family, for disobeying Caesar. I’ve been retired for 10 years, and I’m still suffering from it.
What would Paul say about it?
As I've said, if we were to become a pacifist nation, we would lose it. So I think it behooves us to be practical. You are the only Christian I've ever met that doesn't believe in killing in self defense or in the defense of one's family. And certainly the only one that believes Christians shouldn't serve in roles that require lethal force.
God doesn’t want the United States to become a pacifist nation.
It behooves us to obey the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. That’s the practical way, the only way, the narrow way, for followers of Jesus.
That’s a blessing from above. Praise God!
Going against the Golden Rule is disobeying Jesus.
”…, he [Jesus] became the source of eternal life [i.e. the life of the age to come] for all who obey him.”
(Hebrews 5:9, NIV)
Salvation is given to those who obey Jesus. Failure to believe and obey the words of Jesus is unbelief in the Son of God.
”Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life [i.e. the life of the coming age], but whoever rejects the Son will not see life [i.e. immortal life], for God’s wrath remains on him.”
(John 3:36, NIV)
Disobeying the Son of God is rejecting his teaching, not believing his teaching, rejecting him.
This is extremely important. It’s a salvation issue.
Is the Golden Rule ever optional for followers of Jesus?
AI Overview -
“For a follower of Jesus, the Golden Rule is never optional. Jesus presents this teaching as a core summary of the Law and the Prophets, binding all believers to treat others the way they want to be treated.”
The Golden Rule is essential. Making it situational unbinds what the Messiah has bound.
AI Overview -
“For a follower of Jesus, the Golden Rule is never optional. Jesus presents this teaching as a core summary of the Law and the Prophets, binding all believers to treat others the way they want to be treated.”
The Golden Rule is essential. Making it situational unbinds what the Messiah has bound.
@Riven obeying the Golden Rule isn’t negotiable for a follower of Jesus. It’s not an on again / off again proposition. I hope you’ll speak with someone you trust about it.
If you become persuaded that obeying the Golden Rule is routine practice in every scenario of the Christian life, then you’ll need to think through the issue of how doing so is compatible with the ”doing bad things for the greater good” philosophy.
I‘m unable to, for example, reconcile dropping an atomic bomb on Christians (and / or non-Christians) with obeying the Golden Rule. It’s a matter of conscience. If you can reconcile it, then that’s between you and the Messiah.
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