David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You made a BIG ERROR my brother in Christ
"CHRIST is the firstfruits of, of, of those who have fallen sleep"
When it says "of" it means Christ is part of = those who have fallen asleep
MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??
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"CHRIST is the firstfruits of, of, of those who have fallen sleep"
When it says "of" it means Christ is part of = those who have fallen asleep
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I did not. I am going by what the text actually indicates. You are not.
It specifically says Christ Himself is the firstfruits. He is the firstfruits of what? Of those who have fallen asleep. He is their firstfruits. It doesn't say they are the firstfruits. You are twisting the text to make it as if it says Christ AND those who have fallen alseep are the firstfruits. That is NOT what it says. Stop changing the text to make it say what you want it to say.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You better go ask a English Teacher about that
EXAMPLES:
1. the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ - 2 Cor 1:3
2. to keep the unity of the Spirit
3. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself?
What it means Christ is resurrected first and has His glorified body
And we are included in Christ's resurrection, as part of Him, so we too will be resurrected and have a glorified body like He has, when He returns, we get resurrected if we are dead. Living saints at His return are transformed into having glorified bodies.
All believers will be transformed, living or dead to get a glorified body, when He comes again.
Jesus and the apostles never taught we had to wait 1000 years after He came back to get resurrected and get the glorified body.
Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Christ is firstfruits, it is like He is the first fruit to ripen on the tree, being the first one resurrected. All the other fruits on the tree are not ripe yet. The purpose and plan of God which can not be thwarted is to raise up all who believe in Him on the Last Day, so that is when we believers are all raised up.
All the other believers are having to await their own resurrection to come later, but as we are in Him, our life is Hidden with Christ in God, when He appears, we will also appear with Him in glory, at His return....
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Christ is firstfruits, it is like He is the first fruit to ripen on the tree, being the first one resurrected. All the other fruits on the tree are not ripe yet. The purpose and plan of God which can not be thwarted is to raise up all who believe in Him on the Last Day, so that is when we believers are all raised up.
All the other believers are having to await their own resurrection to come later, but as we are in Him, our life is Hidden with Christ in God, when He appears, we will also appear with Him in glory, at His return....
- John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Question yourself, where is this LAST DAY in Revelation?
Personally, after the LAST Day of this earth, is the eternal state, that New Earth and New Heaven....
Perhaps then that 1000 years is taking place in Heaven and not on this earth..... and really is highly symbolic of How we reign with Christ in Heaven now....
www.biblegateway.com
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Personally, after the LAST Day of this earth, is the eternal state, that New Earth and New Heaven....
Perhaps then that 1000 years is taking place in Heaven and not on this earth..... and really is highly symbolic of How we reign with Christ in Heaven now....
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2 - New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted...
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1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adding that resurrection and GLORIFICATION will happen to all of God's people, So the fruit here in the proper order includes being resurrected and getting a glorified body, Jesus as firstfruits of that is both resurrected and glorified in a body.
Some had been resurrected, but not yet glorified, like here.
Matthew 27
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adding that resurrection and GLORIFICATION will happen to all of God's people, So the fruit here in the proper order includes being resurrected and getting a glorified body, Jesus as firstfruits of that is both resurrected and glorified in a body.
Some had been resurrected, but not yet glorified, like here.
Matthew 27
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
You can read as well I can and you see see just as well as I see that the resurrection happens during Jacob’s trouble which is a short period or with max time being 7 years.
But more so than that, isn’t it obvious when Daniels people were delivered? It was the cross. Isn’t it obvious that many saints that slept awoke with Christ? The evidence is overwhelming that Daniel 12 was fulfilled at the cross and what I don’t understand is why do you not want that to be true?
You’re not trying to harmonize scripture here you’re trying to bend Daniel 12 to fit your view of Revelation 20.
Why can’t you let Daniel 12 say what it says and let Revelation 20 say what it says and then figure out what that means?
The first group was the Old Testament saints that rose with Christ. The next group are believers after the cross. The thousand years represents life on earth under the dominion (10) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000.
The cattle on a thousand hills are the “sheep” that belong to Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000.
No need to accuse me of using numerology, this is not numerology, it’s how God uses numbers in the Bible. It’s no different than saying the number 7 represents completion.
You are correct David but if you read that from a King James it is the “the firstfruits of them that SLEPT - past tense, they are no longer sleeping.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
My view is 1000 is entirely symbolic and also heavenly, as your pointing out, because literally read it does not fit with what Jesus and the apostles teach about resurrection literally as to what happens. This has been pointed out by others over many discussions too. Revelation is a highly symbolic writing, meant for encouraging people in the faith for the future is excellent times to come in the eternal state for believers.
I’m always open to changing my view on anything if the evidence is good enough.
I do know “thousand” represents Gods property or dominion of earthly things. Whether that’s the intended meaning in Rev 20, I’m pretty sure it is, but I’m open to any evidence that it’s not.
I really don’t care what the truth is, I just want to know the truth. For example I don’t care one way or the other if there is a literal thousand year reign of Christ or not, it makes no difference to me, I’m good with either one. I just want to know which one it is, if that makes sense.
Taken
Well-Known Member
MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??
Throughout history men have worshiped the Beast (Aka Satan)… “and mortally Died in their Sin”…which Carry’s its own Judgement of Damnation…LOF.
During (mid-time) of the Tribulations Sent Down from Heaven…
The Beast is Revealed, Given Power to entice, gather, conquer, MARK men into his fold AND kill men who reject him.
They who “stand with him”, shall ALSO receive A Damnation (LOF) Judgement.
Worship AND Receive the MARK of the Beast…does = LOF consequence during the Trib.
So ALSO, Before the Trib = LOF, for men WHO while Alive Worshiped the Beast (Satan) and then Mortally Died”.
Different “timing circumstances” of men…
Same Damnination Consequence… LOF.
Neither HAVE the MARK of God, which is Required to become MADE Saved and Avoid the Damination of the LOF.
Glory to God,
Taken
Throughout history men have worshiped the Beast (Aka Satan)… “and mortally Died in their Sin”…which Carry’s its own Judgement of Damnation…LOF.
During (mid-time) of the Tribulations Sent Down from Heaven…
The Beast is Revealed, Given Power to entice, gather, conquer, MARK men into his fold AND kill men who reject him.
They who “stand with him”, shall ALSO receive A Damnation (LOF) Judgement.
Worship AND Receive the MARK of the Beast…does = LOF consequence during the Trib.
So ALSO, Before the Trib = LOF, for men WHO while Alive Worshiped the Beast (Satan) and then Mortally Died”.
Different “timing circumstances” of men…
Same Damnination Consequence… LOF.
Neither HAVE the MARK of God, which is Required to become MADE Saved and Avoid the Damination of the LOF.
Glory to God,
Taken
1 Corinthians 15:12 (KJV) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
As we can see there was a question about how a mortal body of flesh (living souls) can be resurrected from the dead. Paul explains how man's living soul that dies in Christ (believers) is quickened (made alive) after death. Because Christ gives us assurance that physical death cannot kill our soul, only our body of flesh dies and returns to dust from which it came (Mt. 10:28).
Paul tells us that just as Christ arose from the dead, living on after His flesh was dead and buried, so too, we who die in Christ shall also continue to be living souls when we die. But when man dies, we are not bodily resurrected in three days as Christ was. That will not happen until the last day of this age when the seventh trumpet sounds, then our mortal bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. So, how can the life we receive when we have been born again be eternal, as Christ says, if death of our mortal flesh means complete death of our living soul? Christ would not have told us our life IN HIM is eternal if death of our mortal body is also death of our spirit that together with body of flesh makes us living souls!
Paul, in this passage of Scripture goes into great detail explaining how death of our mortal natural body transitions after we cease to be physically alive. The body sown after death is not the same body that shall live on eternally after physical death. That natural body will be changed. God will give it (body) that which pleases Him, that shall not be complete living soul, but changed into a celestial/heavenly body that is spiritual as is the Lord from heaven. Though believers are in life natural body, after death it (natural body) is raised a spiritual body. Because Paul tells us there is both a natural body and there is a spiritual body. The natural body comes first through natural man, made a living soul. After death that which was natural body is afterward spiritual, because in life we have borne the image of the earthy natural man of flesh & blood, and after death we will be the likeness of Christ in heaven. Since the life we have in Christ when we have been born again is eternal, we must be raised a spiritual body after we die, to as be the angels of God, spirit without flesh & blood. We cannot inherit eternal life in heaven a natural body because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
Lastly, after explaining how we continue to be the spiritual body of Christ in heaven after we physically die, Paul also assures us how and when our mortal body of flesh & blood shall also be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible shall be alive again through our living spirit/soul that shall be with Christ when the last trumpet sounds.
1 Corinthians 15:35-45 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46-50 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I see it as in heaven and on earth for all believers during the church age. I think that revelation 20:4 is just showing that we still reign even after death
Ephesians 2 agrees with that as a current reality right now, and actually eternally too, those ages to come mentioned.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
God calls things that are NOT as though they DO, so to Him they are a current reality, even if we don't feel or experience it yet...
Meaning the promises of God are as good as if they are done and completed.
You can place your trust in Him.
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Meaning the promises of God are as good as if they are done and completed.
You can place your trust in Him.
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
rwb, you say our mortal bodies will be "changed from mortal to immortal" — but that actually contradicts the very analogy Paul uses to explain how resurrection works.
Paul says in v.37: "thou sowest not that body that shall be." The seed that goes into the ground is explicitly NOT the body that comes up. It rots. God then gives it a new body as He pleases (v.38). The old body is sown in corruption, weakness, and dishonour — something entirely new is raised in incorruption, power, and glory (v.42-43).
So the seed analogy isn't about transformation of the old body — it's about the old body being left behind while God gives new life a new body. What carries through is the life, not the old physical matter. Paul couldn't have made it clearer: "thou sowest not that body that shall be."
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