Never heard the Gospel = burn/torment forever and ever ??

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then look what comes after verse 11, meaning this---12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Obviously paralleling when the beast worshipers are having no rest day and night. Instead of interpreting things in context, you want to import verse 11 into Revelation 20:11-15 in order to get John to say something he never said in Revelation 20:11-15, that any of these shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever..

You are the one taking things out of context, not me. And it's because you interpret things with your emotions instead of what the text actually says.

If you have any friends and or family members that get cast into the LOF, what do you hope their fate is?

There it is. And this proves what I've been saying. Your beliefs about this are based on what you personally wish would be the case, regardless of what scripture teaches is actually the case. God's thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8). Are you somehow not aware of that? Our understanding of the big picture and of fairness and so on is very limited compared to God. In our very limited view of things, it might not seem fair for people to suffer eternal torment for things done during a temporary lifetime. But, to be consistent with that, we'd have to conclude that being given eternal life because of putting our faith in Christ during this temporary lifetime is also not fair. So, when you appear before Jesus to give an account of yourself are you going to decline the eternal life He wants to give you for being His child because you think it's not fair for Him to give that to you? I'm sure you won't. So, you need to try to look at this from God's perspective, not from your own limited perspective.

From my limited perspective, all I have experienced and seen is people being given temporal punishments for temporal crimes. But, I'm not God. So, what I hope for my family and friends and for everyone is that their fate is whatever God determines it to be, whether I can comprehend it or not. Because I know that God is just and always does the right thing. I'm content with that whether I can fully comprehend everything He does or not because I know that my thoughts and my ways are not His thoughts and His ways when it comes to things like this.

Not what you think their fate is, but what you would hope it to be. The same as Revelation 20:10 or annihilation eventually? Can you at least be honest about that?

I'm honest about everything, so I don't appreciate you falsely accusing me of being dishonest about anything we talk about, including this. What I think about this means nothing. Don't you want God to do whatever He feels right regardless of whether you fully understand why He does it or not? If not, you need to adjust your way of thinking because you don't know best and I don't know best. But, we can trust that God does and be content with whatever God chooses to do. I am content with that. I'm not so sure that you are, which is troubling.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you are the devil, beast, false prophet or 'mark' taker then forever burn/torment it is
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
.
Yet where are the verses that teach those who NEVER HEARD or UNDERSTOOD the Gospel will suffer the same fate ?

You need to look at teh book of Romans. as it is written, all have sinned, thus all are condemned.

Also Paul said in romans one that it is the gospel that is the power of God to save. If you do not hear the gospel you do not know the power to save.

Romans 10 also says if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised jesus from teh dead, you will be saved. that means the opposite is true as well.

Jesus made it very clear in John 3:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GoD.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Doesn't get c;learer than that. If you do not believe on Jesus, you are condemned.

 

[Anchorite]

You need to look at teh book of Romans. as it is written, all have sinned, thus all are condemned.

Also Paul said in romans one that it is the gospel that is the power of God to save. If you do not hear the gospel you do not know the power to save.

Romans 10 also says if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised jesus from teh dead, you will be saved. that means the opposite is true as well.

Jesus made it very clear in John 3:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GoD.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Doesn't get c;learer than that. If you do not believe on Jesus, you are condemned.

But how can a person “not believe in Jesus”, if they never heard of Him?

John 9:35,36,37,38

Jesus heard that they had cast him out. And when He had found him, He said unto him, “Dost thou believe in the Son of God?”

He answered and said, “Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?”

And Jesus said unto him, “Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.”

And he said, “Lord, I believe”. And he worshipped him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But how can a person “not believe in Jesus”, if they never heard of Him?

John 9:35,36,37,38

Jesus heard that they had cast him out. And when He had found him, He said unto him, “Dost thou believe in the Son of God?”

He answered and said, “Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?”

And Jesus said unto him, “Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.”

And he said, “Lord, I believe”. And he worshipped him.

Well the bible is clear, the only way to salvation is to trust in the Lord Jesus and His payment for our sin.

If someone never heard of chemotherapy and they have cancer, they will die if not told! same with a person. all are sinners. None is ritghteous and only faith in Jesus can save a lost soul.

We may not understand or find it harsh, but God knows what He is doing.

 

[ScottA]

Yet where are the verses that teach those who NEVER HEARD or UNDERSTOOD the Gospel will suffer the same fate ?

Such a thing is not written.

On the contrary, it is written regarding God and salvation, that "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Which is to say, anyone of any time who has looked to the marvelous creation of God, and as much as thought, "Surely, there is a God!" is equally regarded by God toward salvation.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Such a thing is not written.

On the contrary, it is written regarding God and salvation, that "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Which is to say, anyone of any time who has looked to the marvelous creation of God, and as much as thought, "Surely, there is a God!" is equally regarded by God toward salvation.

"""the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."
..
Where did these 'people' read or learn about the saving Gospel as written by the Apostles ?

 

[ScottA]

"""the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."
..
Where did these 'people' read or learn about the saving Gospel as written by the Apostles ?

Many have not read or known the gospels written by the apostles. But that does not leave them out. God chose Israel as a light unto the gentiles (all nations and people), but only after He declared Himself in the heavens and in the handiwork of His creation, which is for all regardless. As Christ said to the Father, "Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition."

 

[Scott Downey]

But how can a person “not believe in Jesus”, if they never heard of Him?

John 9:35,36,37,38

Jesus heard that they had cast him out. And when He had found him, He said unto him, “Dost thou believe in the Son of God?”

He answered and said, “Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?”

And Jesus said unto him, “Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.”

And he said, “Lord, I believe”. And he worshipped him.

Jesus comes to the guy and reveals who He is.
God had foreknown that person as His, so drew him to Christ

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 2
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Still no one is justified by the law, for by the LAW is the knowledge of SIN

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - New King James Version

God’s Judgment Defended - What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not...

www.biblegateway.com

All Have Sinned​

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become [e]guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith​

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Scott Downey]

People can persist in unbelief even after seeing miracles of God and Christ
Same thing happened in the OT with unbelieving Israel

So what is the reason they believe at all? God personally intervenes, seeing miracles happen does not make someone believe.
Uninspired by the Spirit, people are like brute beasts.

Deuteronomy 29
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to [a]perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 3 - New King James Version

The Son Was Faithful - Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory...

www.biblegateway.com

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers​

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Jude - New King James Version

Greeting to the Called - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. Contend for the Faith - Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you...

www.biblegateway.com

​

Greeting to the Called​

1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith​

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [b]God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Scott Downey]

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of [e]dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in [f]contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Apostates Depraved and Doomed​

12 These are [g]spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried [h]about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Apostates Predicted​

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are [i]sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Maintain Your Life with God​

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, [j]making a distinction; 23 but others save [k]with fear, pulling them out of the [l]fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Glory to God​

24 Now to Him who is able to keep [m]you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To [n]God our Savior,
[o]Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and [p]power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Such a thing is not written.

On the contrary, it is written regarding God and salvation, that "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Which is to say, anyone of any time who has looked to the marvelous creation of God, and as much as thought, "Surely, there is a God!" is equally regarded by God toward salvation.

That is anti biblical. Scripture is clear. Paul and Jesus declared it.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Doesn't get any clearer or plainer than that.

Well off till Tuesday.

 

[ScottA]

That is anti biblical. Scripture is clear. Paul and Jesus declared it.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Doesn't get any clearer or plainer than that.

Well off till Tuesday.

No...I was quoting Paul. So you have denied us both.

 

[Earburner]

Assuming you are an Eph 1:13 saved & sealed believer and take the mark of the beast next week do you believe Rev 14:9-11 will apply to you - go to the lake of fire.
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Abdolutely!! Taking the MoB, after one has become a Born again believer in Jesus, is equal to committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Heb. 10
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Abdolutely!! Taking the MoB, after one has become a Born again believer in Jesus, is equal to committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Heb. 10
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hey EB, thanx for the response which leads into an interesting topic.
"""Abdolutely!! Taking the MoB, after one has become a Born again believer in Jesus, is equal to committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."""
.
Do you believe or understand that if an Eph 1:13 HS sealed believer takes the MOTB they then become UNsealed ?