That’s right. Follow Jesus and the apostles.
That’s not the reason Jesus and the apostles gave for not killing their enemies.
The good man that turned bad out of necessity
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That’s right. Follow Jesus and the apostles.
That’s not the reason Jesus and the apostles gave for not killing their enemies.
@Riven I invite you to watch this one minute clip.
What we’re seeing here is the veneration of relics (specifically, the skull of a woman who lived in the 3rd century) by the Catholic Church.
It isn’t New Testament Christianity.
The Crusaders fought to defend the practice.
What do you think about it?
Did you watch the clip @Riven? Do you think God is pleased with the practice?
How many people have you killed in fulfillment of what you believe to be your “moral and civic duty”?
I doubt it. But then again, who is pleased with Catholicism? Look at all those gay outfits they wear. They look like Liberace.
Why do you doubt it? The Crusaders didn’t doubt it. The pope doesn’t doubt it. Veneration of relics is a longstanding practice in Catholicism. When did the practice begin?
The Crusaders were pleased with Catholicism. You’re pleased with the Crusaders, aren’t you?
Riven were you able to watch the video? Raymond Ibrahim talks about "doormat Christians" in it. He says there needs to be a balance in our Christian faith...that sometimes Jesus also overturned tables and made a whip.
The Bible does teach there is such a thing as righteous anger. For instance if you see a child being abused, one doesn't just stand there and let it happen.
I’m glad to hear that, but what happened to your moral and civic duty argument?
I think you would be if given the opportunity.
How many innocent people would you allow to be killed before you intervened?
How many innocent people did Jesus and the apostles allow to be killed before they intervened?
@Riven and I had a discussion about this earlier in the thread. It led him to conclude that man did better than God.
It is also interesting to consider what was going on in John 18:6 when Jesus made the men who came to arrest Him fall to the ground ... which gave his disciples time to flee.
Hi, Debbie. I didn't watch this one. However, I agree with the message. However, there is a difference between flipping tables and killing a man. The crux of the issue is, can Christians kill other people is Jesus commanded us to do otherwise?
Matthias, to his credit, has been fairly clear on this. To paraphrase his words, he doesn't believe a Christian has the authority to kill another human being under any circumstances.
So what do you think? Let's try to imagine we're all sitting in the same room together with Jesus discussing this issue.
Hi Riven,,,,
After many years you've decided to jump down from the fence?
Sorry I wasn't around to catch you.
But happy to hear it.
It's a decision...pure and simple.
And a good one to make.
Luke 15:7
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
It is not one's moral and civic duty to murder. I know you don't draw a distinction between self defense and murder, but most other people do.
I think you're right.
Both Jesus (John 8) and Paul (Acts 23) intervened to prevent a person's death.
In the Temple and in the Garden Jesus used physical force.
Paul asked for an armed escort to go from Jerusalem to Caesarea (Acts 27)
But I assume the answer to my question is that you would allow an unlimited number of little children in a school to be slaughtered rather than intervene.
There's a difference between muder and killing.
If a father's child was about to be murdered...
and he murdered the killer first...
that would not be a sin.
It is a father's duty to protect his family and not allow them to be massacred, if at all possible.
We have extreme pacifists on this board.
If they would rather not kill and be killed,
that is their prerogative.
That is NOT what Jesus taught.
When He sent out the Apostles the second time He told them to buy a sword.
Luke 22:36
36And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.
You’ve said that killing an enemy for the greater good is still murder. Doesn’t that make it one’s moral and civic duty to murder?
I wish I wasn’t right, but that’s where you are presently. My hope is that you won’t always be where you are at the moment.
Neither Jesus not Paul killed anyone to do it.
We’ve not been able to agree on that.
Yes. That’s the role of the state.
That’s a bad assumption on your part.
Others here are aware of my work intervening on behalf of neglected, abused, and at risk children.
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I think it depends on each individual circumstance. But in the case of protecting others or myself, sometimes one needs to fight back. I'm talking about a physical fighting back. And if someone should die in that fight, sometimes it does happen.
There was a young mother, Rhianna Whyte, in the UK who worked at a migrant hotel. After her shift ended, an African migrant followed her in the dark. He stabbed her 23 times in the neck and she died. If she would have been able to get his knife, she would have had to use it on him to stop him.
She died and now her children have no mother and her mother is without a daughter.
Acts 13:4
"For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good.
But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.
They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
The argument that a follower of Jesus must not be "God's servant" (according to Acts 13:4) is belied by the fact that the centurions (Mat 8, Acts 10) were not condemned ... nor did John the Baptist condemn the soldiers who came to him.
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