Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[covenantee]

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”
9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!​

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Romans 11:1-24

It is good to keep it in context.

​

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Grailhunter]

When faithful obedient Israelites entered into a spiritual covenant relationship with a Spiritual God, did He grant them a spiritual salvation which assured them of Heaven?

Or were they all dispirited dispensationalists with no spirits?

Explain how each salvation referenced in @WPM's post 592 is exclusively "physical salvation".

The topic is about salvation with no mention of a heavenly reward in the Old Testament.
For the Hebrews/Israelites/ Jews, as far as Heaven was concerned that was where Yahweh and angel were. Not the abode of humans.
The Old Testament does not speak of bad people in Hell or good people in Heaven.
Rewards and punishments were given to them during their lives.
You can read the phrase "gathered with their fathers" They believed all souls went to Sheol.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=8179...bGlmZSthZnRlcitkZWF0aCZmb3JtPUNTQlJBTkQ&ntb=1
In the Old Testament, life after death was initially seen as a shadowy existence in Sheol.

Sheol: The Realm of the Dead​

In early Hebrew thought, death was understood as the end of biological life, and the dead went to Sheol, a shadowy, silent realm where both the righteous and the wicked shared a common fate, separated from God and the living (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5) Sheol was not a place of reward or punishment but a neutral abode of the dead, often described metaphorically as a grave or pit (Isaiah 38:10) The Hebrew term māwet for death could refer biologically to the end of life, mythologically as a power, symbolically as loss of God’s intended life, or as the place of existence after death

 

[Grailhunter]

What i gave you shows the elect are chosen. That is what you asked for. Rom 11:5 there is a remnant according to the election of grace

Elect chosen for what?
Clear as mud.
These verses are not clear of their disposition.
And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
So it is referring to the Old Testament Jews.
How does it relate to 1st century Jews and modern Jews.

 

[Grailhunter]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

A lot of Christians believe that the Jews that did not believe in Yeshua went to Hell then and now.
As I have said before, I believe Yahweh has a plan for the Jews.....and has not given up for them.
BUT, that plan is not clear.

 

[WPM]

Elect chosen for what?
Clear as mud.
These verses are not clear of their disposition.
And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
So it is referring to the Old Testament Jews.
How does it relate to 1st century Jews and modern Jews.

They is one spiritual people in time. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there are only two types of people on planet earth – saved and lost. There are not three types of people in this world – saved, lost and then Israel, as Dispensationalists argue. For that to be true there would have to be three federal heads. But Scripture makes it clear that there are only two – those “in Adam” and those “in Christ.” Nowhere does it say that there are three, namely, all those “in Adam,” all those “in Moses” and then all those “in Christ” as dispensationalists would have us believe.

Scripture rather breaks all mankind down into one of two groups – those that are saved and those lost, those that are “in Adam” and then those that are “in Christ.” Whilst there may be many ethnic subgroups within these two overall groups, in God’s eyes, there are only two groups.

The elect are God’s chosen people – regardless of birthday, nationality or social standing. Paul here portrays God’s elect as a people of “faith” and “truth.” God’s people possess saving faith. They live by faith. They are the household of faith. They are a believing community. They have been wonderfully changed by receiving God’s truth. They love Christ and have had their sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus. The redeemed of God are therefore the elect of God. God’s chosen people are Christians. Election is open to every ethnicity by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Those who reject Christ can never own the title of God’s elect.

 

[Grailhunter]

They is one spiritual people in time. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there are only two types of people on planet earth – saved and lost. There are not three types of people in this world – saved, lost and then Israel, as Dispensationalists argue. For that to be true there would have to be three federal heads. But Scripture makes it clear that there are only two – those “in Adam” and those “in Christ.” Nowhere does it say that there are three, namely, all those “in Adam,” all those “in Moses” and then all those “in Christ” as dispensationalists would have us believe.

Scripture rather breaks all mankind down into one of two groups – those that are saved and those lost, those that are “in Adam” and then those that are “in Christ.” Whilst there may be many ethnic subgroups within these two overall groups, in God’s eyes, there are only two groups.

The elect are God’s chosen people – regardless of birthday, nationality or social standing. Paul here portrays God’s elect as a people of “faith” and “truth.” God’s people possess saving faith. They live by faith. They are the household of faith. They are a believing community. They have been wonderfully changed by receiving God’s truth. They love Christ and have had their sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus. The redeemed of God are therefore the elect of God. God’s chosen people are Christians. Election is open to every ethnicity by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Those who reject Christ can never own the title of God’s elect.

But who are "they"
The only faithful in regard to salvation are Christians.
As you say--->Those who reject Christ can never own the title of God’s elect. This is true. But no one in the Old Testament accepted Christ.

 

[covenantee]

A lot of Christians believe that the Jews that did not believe in Yeshua went to Hell then and now.
As I have said before, I believe Yahweh has a plan for the Jews.....and has not given up for them.
BUT, that plan is not clear.

In Matthew 21:43 Jesus disclosed His Plan to take the Kingdom of God from Israel and give it to His Holy Nation the Church.

Plan accomplished and fulfilled.

Couldn't be more clear.

 

[WPM]

But who are "they"
The only faithful in regard to salvation are Christians.
As you say--->Those who reject Christ can never own the title of God’s elect. This is true. But no one in the Old Testament accepted Christ.

They looked forward by faith. The Old Testament pointed to Jesus, and the New Testament witnesses of Him. The constant use of the term “fulfilled” in the New Testament relating to the work and ministry of Christ proves He was the antitype, who through His perfect earthly mission, removed the need and effectiveness of the type and figure from among God’s people.

Jesus famously rebuked the two downcast disciples on the road to Emmaus on resurrection day, stating: “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?” (Luke 24:25-26). After this, he began to open their eyes to the meaning of the sacred pages. Luke 24:25 records: “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

Despite the fact that these disciples had sat under the teaching of the Lord for 3 ½ years they were still largely ignorant of the full meaning and import of the Old Testament Scriptures. That is why Jesus had to explain the meaning and application of these Old Testament passages to them in detail. He had to show how they spoke about Him. They should have known all this, but didn't because of their human limitations and lack of faith. Because of this they needed Jesus to interpret the ancient Scriptures that referred to Him for them.

Jesus began at the beginning with Moses in the Pentateuch and followed right through to the prophets showing these disciples the things pertaining to Himself, His sufferings and His glory. He revealed the Gospel message in the Old Testament pages. Jesus was not just referring to the Old Testament pages. We often see the descriptive coupling of Moses and the prophets as an alternative description of, and distinction between, the written Word and the spoken Word. That is likely why Moses and Elijah joined Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. They represented both groups and together they pointed to our Redeemer.

Our Savior continues in Luke 24:44-46: “These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.”

His intent was to confirm that He completed every demand that was made of Him from the ancient inspired pages. His life was the perfect realization of predicted Old Testament prophecy.

Peter confirmed in 1 Peter 1:10-11: “the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The New Testament authors saw Jesus as the ultimate realization of the Old Testament revelation of God, given to Moses and the prophets, regarding Israel’s deliverer. All this was said in regard to different key aspects of Christ’s earthly mission, including His life, death and resurrection. He realized every type. He accomplished every promise. He was salvation. He was Israel’s redeemer. He was their anticipated Messiah. He was the answer to every spiritual need of man.

The Old Testament Scriptures collectively combine to portray a beautiful tapestry of the person, life and ministry of Christ. Everything was carefully choreographed to fulfil the divine blueprint. Bruce K. Waltke ably outlines: “The typological approach of the NT is grounded in an understanding that the new age in Christ fulfills the salvation toward which the old is reaching” (The Dance between God and Humanity).

 

[WPM]

But who are "they"
The only faithful in regard to salvation are Christians.
As you say--->Those who reject Christ can never own the title of God’s elect. This is true. But no one in the Old Testament accepted Christ.

They experienced salvation when they exercised faith in God and His impending sacrifice for sin. The reality is: the Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross, we look back. They knew “by faith” that God had a final perfect sacrifice for sin. It was like a post-dated check. They were regenerated on the grounds of the certainty of the impending redemptive work of Messiah. While the cross occurred in time, it is a timeless event spanning both covenants.

 

[Grailhunter]

In Matthew 21:43 Jesus disclosed His Plan to take the Kingdom of God from Israel and give it to His Holy Nation the Church.

Plan accomplished and fulfilled.

Couldn't be more clear.

Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
I copy verse into the posts so that readers can follow.
Yes it is clear

 

[Grailhunter]

They experienced salvation when they exercised faith in God and His impending sacrifice for sin. The reality is: the Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross, we look back. They knew “by faith” that God had a final perfect sacrifice for sin. It was like a post-dated check. They were regenerated on the grounds of the certainty of the impending redemptive work of Messiah. While the cross occurred in time, it is a timeless event spanning both covenants.

Looked forward to the cross? They looked forward to killing their Messiah? I don't think so. Is the cross mentioned? No. The prophecies of the Old Testament did not tell of the sacrifice of the Messiah. The Old Testament Jews looked forward to a powerful human warlord king that would take out their oppressors.
They had no concept of Hell or Heaven as an abode for Humans. The term Savior for them was saved from their oppressors.
Attempts to Christianize the Old Testament is a failure of effort. Judaism and Christianity do not mix.

 

[Grailhunter]

They experienced salvation when they exercised faith in God and His impending sacrifice for sin. The reality is: the Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross, we look back. They knew “by faith” that God had a final perfect sacrifice for sin. It was like a post-dated check. They were regenerated on the grounds of the certainty of the impending redemptive work of Messiah. While the cross occurred in time, it is a timeless event spanning both covenants.

Post 611

 

[WPM]

Looked forward to the cross? They looked forward to killing their Messiah? I don't think so. Is the cross mentioned? No. The prophecies of the Old Testament did not tell of the sacrifice of the Messiah. The Old Testament Jews looked forward to a powerful human warlord king that would take out their oppressors.
They had no concept of Hell or Heaven as an abode for Humans. The term Savior for them was saved from their oppressors.
Attempts to Christianize the Old Testament is a failure of effort. Judaism and Christianity do not mix.

LOL. I just showed you them and you (as per usual) ducked around them. You have to to sustain your theology.

You seem to see all the OT Hebrews as blind and unregenerate. Scripture does not do that. He reveals an elect remnant that you ignore in your replies. There are countless posts full of evidence above that you have ignored. That is telling!

The righteous in the Old Testament were saved in the same way we are today (in the New Testament). They were saved by grace through faith. We can see that any character study in the Old Testament or a quick perusal of in Hebrews 11. The old covenant saints are repeatedly depicted as encountering God “by faith.” They obtained a new birth experience by putting their trust in the Lord.

When Jesus witnessed to one of Israel’s religious leaders in John 3 about being born again, he questioned “How can these things be?” (V9). Christ’s response shows that this was a reality that he should already have been aware of as a student of God’s Word. Jesus asked in verse 10: “Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” Basically he was saying, ‘you should know what I am talking about’.

There have only ever been 2 peoples from Adam – saved and lost. The believer belongs to the household of faith; the unbeliever refuses to put His faith in God. possesses the Spirit of God and has submitted his life to Christ; the unbeliever is full of self, and is thus governed by his own impulses and thoughts.

The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross, we look back. They knew “by faith” that God had a final perfect sacrifice for sin. It was like a post-dated check. They were regenerated on the grounds of the certainty of the impending redemptive work of Messiah.

 

[WPM]

Looked forward to the cross? They looked forward to killing their Messiah? I don't think so. Is the cross mentioned? No. The prophecies of the Old Testament did not tell of the sacrifice of the Messiah. The Old Testament Jews looked forward to a powerful human warlord king that would take out their oppressors.
They had no concept of Hell or Heaven as an abode for Humans. The term Savior for them was saved from their oppressors.
Attempts to Christianize the Old Testament is a failure of effort. Judaism and Christianity do not mix.

1 Corinthians 10:1 & 4 supports my contention, saying, “I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea ... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

We can see the absolute unity that Scripture reveals between the people of God of all time, irrespective of the era that they were born in. The main difference being that the New Testament believer now looks back to the cross, whereas the Old Testament looked forward. Also, the sphere and scale of election has now been widened out to encompass all nations. Hebrews 11:23-26 says, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses’ life was found in Christ by faith. All he was and all he would be would be found in the person and work of Christ. His salvation was not in another or by another means. Every sacrifice that he and the people of God made prior to the cross was simply a signpost to Calvary and an imperfect type of that one all-sufficient sacrifice.

 

[WPM]

Looked forward to the cross? They looked forward to killing their Messiah? I don't think so. Is the cross mentioned? No. The prophecies of the Old Testament did not tell of the sacrifice of the Messiah. The Old Testament Jews looked forward to a powerful human warlord king that would take out their oppressors.
They had no concept of Hell or Heaven as an abode for Humans. The term Savior for them was saved from their oppressors.
Attempts to Christianize the Old Testament is a failure of effort. Judaism and Christianity do not mix.

Hebrews 11 demonstrates this. Hebrews 11:1-3 says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

Verse 4 says, “By faith Abel …”

Verse 5 says, “By faith Enoch …”

Verse 7 says, “By faith Noah …”

Verse 8 “By faith Abraham …”

Verse 11 says, “Through faith also Sara …”

Verses 12-13 continues, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”

Verse 20 says, “By faith Isaac …”

Verse 21 says, “By faith Jacob …”

Verse 22 says, “By faith Joseph …”

Hebrews 11:23-26 says, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses’ life was found in Christ by faith. All he was and all he would be would be found in the person and work of Christ. His salvation was not in another or by another means. Every sacrifice that he and the people of God made prior to the cross was simply a signpost to Calvary and an imperfect type of that one all-sufficient sacrifice. Knox Chamblin submits: “Christ is the object of the law’s ceremonial dimension.” Scripture gradually and progressively unveils God’s single redemptive-historical plan for man.

Verse 31 says, “By faith the harlot Rahab …”

Verse 32-40 continues, “And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

This shows us that the household of faith (to which we now belong) originates right back to the very beginning. In fact, even before Israel came about, God’s people were experiencing salvation by grace through faith. This proves that God has only ever had one redeemed people throughout time. God has not got 2 peoples – He has one. Those that love Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile, Old Testament or New Testament) are His; those that reject Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile, Old Testament or New Testament) are of their father the devil.

 

[covenantee]

The prophecies of the Old Testament did not tell of the sacrifice of the Messiah.

Is Isaiah 53 in your Bible?

If so, read it and explain how "The prophecies of the Old Testament did not tell of the sacrifice of the Messiah."