Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[JimKnox]

Wasn't it?

Colossians 1
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Romans 10
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”[i]

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

Colossians 1
5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

Lots of false doctrinal assumptions when you have a corrupted Bible.

 

[rwb]

There are only two witnesses they are the olive trees and the candlesticks there is only one church

The verse clearly states "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" that equates to the Law and Prophets as you've said, but also equates to the Word (Gospel) proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit through the church.

Revelation 11:4 (KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[Scott Downey]

I’m not hung up on it, I think it points to two separate harvests.

Chronologically, which comes first the dead in Christ rising or the tares being gathered? Only one can come first if you have only one harvest.

Also at harvest time what happens?
What you want to preserve is saved
What you do not want is thrown away

At the same harvest

Jesus teaches one harvest here harvesting from the sea, do you agree with this?
Matthew 13

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”

They said to Him, “Yes, [e]Lord.”

52 Then He said to them, “Therefore every [f]scribe instructed [g]concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”


That scriptural theme of the wicked being separated from the just, righteous is everywhere in the scriptures, the wicked are removed, while the righteous just inherit the earth.

 

[rwb]

Wasn't it?

Colossians 1
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Romans 10
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”[i]

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

Colossians 1
5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

No it wasn't! How could the gospel have already been preached to ALL nations of the world that did not yet exist? I understand as a Preterit why you try to limit the preaching of the gospel who is the Son of man to the first century nations, but the gospel is to be proclaimed throughout every nation of the whole earth until the harvest that has not come, and shall not come until the end of the world that encompasses inhabitants to be saved in every age until the end of time when the seventh/last trumpet sounds.

Matthew 13:37-43 (KJV) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 13:47-49 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The passages you have posted speak only of the world then known, but since the end of the world did not come in the first century, it makes no sense to argue the end of the world came then. But that is what must be if these passages tell us the gospel had already been preached to all the nations of the world in the first century. The passages simply point out how those living in the first century are without excuse if they do not believe because all have heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ. As proof they have heard, all who heard and believed grew in grace bearing much fruit, expressing faith and love from the day they heard and believed on Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

In Psalm 37, you read exactly what the lord will do to the wicked, and for the righteous.
The wicked will be cut off from the land (earth), and the meek shall inherit the earth (new earth)
The wicked will experience a sudden destruction on the Day of Christ's return and will be cut off.

Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good;
Dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness.
4 Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit[a] your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
Do not fret—it only causes harm.

9 For evildoers shall be [b]cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.


12 The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.
13 The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming.
14 The wicked have drawn the sword
And have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
To slay those who are of upright conduct.
15 Their sword shall enter their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.
16 A little that a righteous man has
Is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken,
But the Lord upholds the righteous.
18 The Lord knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.

21 The wicked borrows and does not repay,
But the righteous shows mercy and gives.

22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be [c]cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are [d]ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old;
Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his descendants begging bread.
26 He is [e]ever merciful, and lends;
And his descendants are blessed.
27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.

28 For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall [f]slide.

32 The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.
33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the Lord,
And keep His way,
And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a native green tree.
36 Yet [g]he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;
For the future of that man is peace.

38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;
The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the Lord;
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the Lord shall help them and deliver them;
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them,
Because they trust in Him.

 

[grafted branch]

Also at harvest time what happens?
What you want to preserve is saved
What you do not want is thrown away

At the same harvest

Jesus teaches one harvest here harvesting from the sea, do you agree with this?
Matthew 13

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”

They said to Him, “Yes, [e]Lord.”

52 Then He said to them, “Therefore every [f]scribe instructed [g]concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”


That scriptural theme of the wicked being separated from the just, righteous is everywhere in the scriptures, the wicked are removed, while the righteous just inherit the earth.

The parable of the dragnet indicates that at the end of the age the angels separate the wicked from the just. That agrees with the angels gathering the tares first. The gathering of the tares separates them from the just.

 

[Davy]

A simple YES or NO is all that is requested.
Do you believe that the 1 Thess 4:17 rapture/catching up/rapiemur/harpazo >>>ALSO<< includes King David & other OT saints ?

I explained it to you, but you still haven't understood that single verse 1 Thess.4:17 is NOT about pulling dead bodies from the ground. It is about the STILL ALIVE SAINTS on that day of Jesus future coming!

 

[Davy]

..and so you go on and on.
No commentary, no verses, just venom and cursing the body of Christ.
You really need that hatred to get dealt with.

It doesn't take a whole lot of smarts to understand the garbage statements you made about that "in like manner" phrase of Acts 1 when Jesus ascended to Heaven.

You Said:

It says " like manner"​

Your model has no "like manner" in it.​

In fact you would need it to say; "see how he ascends? He will come in nothing like that manner. It will be a radically different manner "​

You even CHOPPED OFF PART OF THE SCRIPTURE IN YOUR VAIN ATTEMPT TO CHANGE WHAT IT SAYS!

Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
KJV

That says Lord Jesus will come in the same way He ascended into Heaven. He went up in a cloud, and Scripture says He will return in a cloud, TO THAT SAME SPOT, THE MOUNT OF OLIVES. (Zech.14). The only difference will be that when He comes, He brings ALL His saints with Him there to earth, as written.

 

[Marty fox]

No it wasn't! How could the gospel have already been preached to ALL nations of the world that did not yet exist? I understand as a Preterit why you try to limit the preaching of the gospel who is the Son of man to the first century nations, but the gospel is to be proclaimed throughout every nation of the whole earth until the harvest that has not come, and shall not come until the end of the world that encompasses inhabitants to be saved in every age until the end of time when the seventh/last trumpet sounds.

Matthew 13:37-43 (KJV) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 13:47-49 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The passages you have posted speak only of the world then known, but since the end of the world did not come in the first century, it makes no sense to argue the end of the world came then. But that is what must be if these passages tell us the gospel had already been preached to all the nations of the world in the first century. The passages simply point out how those living in the first century are without excuse if they do not believe because all have heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ. As proof they have heard, all who heard and believed grew in grace bearing much fruit, expressing faith and love from the day they heard and believed on Christ.

You are assuming that Matthew 24 speaks of the end of the world not everyone including me believes that.

Paul confirms what Jesus meant

 

[Scott Downey]

The parable of the dragnet indicates that at the end of the age the angels separate the wicked from the just. That agrees with the angels gathering the tares first. The gathering of the tares separates them from the just.

yes, and it happens at the end of this world age when Christ returns, just as 2 Thess 1 describes

 

[ewq1938]

The verses writes the Lord DESCENDS and the dead RISE first then we follow ??
What am I not understanding ?

Harpazo is written about the living, not the dead. A different verse speaks of the dead being brought with Christ.

1 Thess 4:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

Let’s not forget something else, in Matthew 13:40 the reapers gather the tares first and bind them in bundles to be burned.

The earth is reaped twice in Revelation 14 and we have the first resurrection in Revelation 20 which suggests a second resurrection also happens.

Since 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 has the dead in Christ rising first and Matthew 13:40 has the tares gathered first, it would make sense that they happen at different harvests and resurrections.

Do you have an overall chronological order of how these happen?

The dead resurrecting first happens at the second coming. Fast forward far intoi the future st the GWTJ/LOF then the tares/unsaved are gathered first to be punished while the saved go into the Eternity as reward.

 

[rwb]

You are assuming that Matthew 24 speaks of the end of the world not everyone including me believes that.

Paul confirms what Jesus meant

No, I assume you believe Christ is speaking of His coming again which you might believe He did in 70 AD. But Christ is NOT speaking of His coming again at all. Not in 70 AD or the end of this age. That which He says is coming quickly/near/soon/at hand is the Kingdom of God in heaven which Christ came to earth with, and after His cross and resurrection would be spiritually opened for all who are born again. Paul confirms the Kingdom of God through Christ has come.

Because the Kingdom of God cannot be seen with physical sight, many miss the fact the Kingdom of God came with Christ, and by His coming, death, and resurrection Satan was cast out of heaven, and a loud voice in heaven declared "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ." The gates of heaven were opened wide that whosoever is born again both know and have entered the Kingdom of God in heaven.

Colossians 1:12-13 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 12:9-10 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

See Jo 3 where Christ speaking to Nicodemus tells him that man must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. No one could know or enter the Kingdom of God, the spiritual kingdom in heaven until Christ came with the Kingdom and gave His life to atone for sin and defeat death. This is what Christ tells us was at hand/near/soon for whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[grafted branch]

The dead resurrecting first happens at the second coming. Fast forward far intoi the future st the GWTJ/LOF then the tares/unsaved are gathered first to be punished while the saved go into the Eternity as reward.

Ok, chronologically you have the dead in Christ rising first and then the tares are gathered first for the GWT. Is that correct?

The tares and wheat grow together and in the harvest the tares are gathered first and bound in bundles according to Matthew 13:30. After the dead in Christ and those that are alive and remain meet the Lord in the air, where are the tares at that time? Are they still on the earth?

 

[Davidpt]

Let’s not forget something else, in Matthew 13:40 the reapers gather the tares first and bind them in bundles to be burned.

The earth is reaped twice in Revelation 14 and we have the first resurrection in Revelation 20 which suggests a second resurrection also happens.

Since 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 has the dead in Christ rising first and Matthew 13:40 has the tares gathered first, it would make sense that they happen at different harvests and resurrections.

Do you have an overall chronological order of how these happen?

When it comes to Amil in general, I don't think there is any such thing as an actual chronology of events to them. They are basically Idealists. That's one reason I can't get on the same page with some of them. I refuse to accept that the same moment those in 1 Cor 15 are changed in the twinkling of an eye is the same moment everything else is fulfilled, including the GWTJ apparently.

The next moment after they put on bodily immortality at the last trump is not them standing in front of God at the GWTJ though, it the events connected with Rev 19 once heaven is opened, that being next on the agenda. They are not being depicted battling dead ppl below. They are being depicted battling ppl still physically alive until when Rev 19:21 is fulfilled.

In the meantime, it is absurd that the GWTJ precedes Rev 19:21 or that it equals the last trump, that same in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Davidpt]

The Israeli military has their Iron Dome and Iron Beam. They shoot down any incoming threats. You’re going to have to argue that the military simply ignores Jesus ascending from a cloud and they just let him land on the mount of Olives without any interaction.

Actually, it depends on how Ezekiel 38-39 play out. Once God enacts His judgment on Gog and his multitude, God quits hiding His face from those currently in that region. Thus they become friends of God again, not remain His enemies. Granted, Ezekiel 38-39 are difficult chapters to interpret, yet are still relevant here, IMO.

 

[Marty fox]

No, I assume you believe Christ is speaking of His coming again which you might believe He did in 70 AD. But Christ is NOT speaking of His coming again at all. Not in 70 AD or the end of this age. That which He says is coming quickly/near/soon/at hand is the Kingdom of God in heaven which Christ came to earth with, and after His cross and resurrection would be spiritually opened for all who are born again. Paul confirms the Kingdom of God through Christ has come.

Because the Kingdom of God cannot be seen with physical sight, many miss the fact the Kingdom of God came with Christ, and by His coming, death, and resurrection Satan was cast out of heaven, and a loud voice in heaven declared "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ." The gates of heaven were opened wide that whosoever is born again both know and have entered the Kingdom of God in heaven.

Colossians 1:12-13 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 12:9-10 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

See Jo 3 where Christ speaking to Nicodemus tells him that man must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. No one could know or enter the Kingdom of God, the spiritual kingdom in heaven until Christ came with the Kingdom and gave His life to atone for sin and defeat death. This is what Christ tells us was at hand/near/soon for whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, Jesus brought the kingdom to the earth, but I believe that the coming in Matthew chapter 24 was His coming in judgement.

 

[Davidpt]

Of course, Jesus brought the kingdom to the earth, but I believe that the coming in Matthew chapter 24 was His coming in judgement.

If you are meaning verse 30, that coming involves both , bringing the kingdom to the earth, and coming in judgment. Both will be true at the time. The Luke 21 account echoes the bringing of the kingdom to the earth

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Take note that it says nigh at hand, meaning it hasn't arrived yet until all these other things have come to pass first. In this case, it is not meaning the unseen kingdom of God one can already experience in the here and now. That aspect of the kingdom has already arrived.

The Luke 21 passage is looking for a kingdom that is nigh at hand at some point, not already at hand. Therefore, it is meaning in the literal sense, a kingdom that can be seen rather than unseen.

Is one going to argue, that throughout all of eternity, even after Christ has already bodily returned, the kingdom remains in the state it is now, not involving sight, but involving faith in something unseen? Surely that can't and won't still be the case once Christ bodily returns with the kingdom.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, chronologically you have the dead in Christ rising first and then the tares are gathered first for the GWT. Is that correct?

Yes.

The tares and wheat grow together and in the harvest the tares are gathered first and bound in bundles according to Matthew 13:30. After the dead in Christ and those that are alive and remain meet the Lord in the air, where are the tares at that time? Are they still on the earth?

At the time of the rapture the unsaved are on the Earth.

 

[Marty fox]

If you are meaning verse 30, that coming involves both , bringing the kingdom to the earth, and coming in judgment. Both will be true at the time. The Luke 21 account echoes the bringing of the kingdom to the earth

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Take note that it says nigh at hand, meaning it hasn't arrived yet until all these other things have come to pass first. In this case, it is not meaning the unseen kingdom of God one can already experience in the here and now. That aspect of the kingdom has already arrived.

The Luke 21 passage is looking for a kingdom that is nigh at hand at some point, not already at hand. Therefore, it is meaning in the literal sense, a kingdom that can be seen rather than unseen.

Is one going to argue, that throughout all of eternity, even after Christ has already bodily returned, the kingdom remains in the state it is now, not involving sight, but involving faith in something unseen? Surely that can't and won't still be the case once Christ bodily returns with the kingdom.

David, I keep taking the time to answer your questions, then you never reply or acknowledge them and then ask me more questions. Any reason?