Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[Davidpt]

I’m not saying Jesus prepared the place while he was in hell, the place was prepared the moment Jesus died on the cross.

When Jesus said I go to prepare a place for the he’s saying he’s going to the cross to pay the price for us.

The only reason Old Testament saints didn’t go to heaven is because the way had not been made yet.

I understand now. I will say this, to be fair, your view has some logic to it, thus not unreasonable. I just don't know if you are correct or not.

I guess when you really think about it, the fact he hasn't went anywhere at that point, that when He comes again it could indeed mean when He rises from the dead. After all, if He didn't rise from the dead, He wouldn't be coming again at any time whatsoever. He would still be dead. And coming again maybe implies the next time He comes, not the last time he comes

 

[IndianaRob]

I understand now. I will say this, to be fair, your view has some logic to it, thus not unreasonable. I just don't know if you are correct or not.

You’re missing the point David. It can not be incorrect. The disciples are dead and in heaven now. It’s impossible that Jesus could “come again” to them, they’re no longer in this realm.

 

[Davidpt]

You’re missing the point David. It can not be incorrect. The disciples are dead and in heaven now. It’s impossible that Jesus could “come again” to them, they’re no longer in this realm.

I added to that post. Did you read rest of it as well? It's as if I'm trying to talk myself into that you might be correct here. I'm trying to be objective, regardless.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The rapture/harpazo Paul wrote about is complete. No partial rapture or rapture later of any that weren't.

Mat 24 "one taken, one left behind"
Mat 25 half the virgins taken.
Both groups are complete as you say.
Complete groups with half taken.
Jesus taught it and he put the setting of it pretrib.
No carnal secular believers are taken in the pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Believers are already married to Jesus right now and should be eating at the marriage supper of the Lamb right now.

Not so.
The betrothal is the bride and groom agreemant, for a future wedding.
The last supper mirrors that betrothal vividly.
In heaven, at the white horses, it is announced that the bride has become the wife sometime earlier in heaven.

 

[IndianaRob]

I added to that post. Did you read rest of it as well? It's as if I'm trying to talk myself into that you might be correct here. I'm trying to be objective, regardless.

I went back and read it again, and I'm glad you see it. But this is only one of many verses that get misunderstood — and each misunderstanding builds on the last until the truth is buried completely.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When you look at the marriage details in the time of Jesus the following happened.

Here's a quick overview as if you look on line for this topic you can learn a lot more.

There is the endowment paid to the brides father....Jesus paid the ransom on the cross.
There is the engagement....the church begins.
The bridegroom goes back to his fathers house with out the bride and prepares a place to live. Jesus ascends into heaven and is preparing a place to live.
When the father is ready he sends the son for his bride....Jesus returns for the church at an unexpected moment.
The bridegroom and groomsmen return for the bride stopping at the edge of town... Christ returns and gets his bride. In the clouds

Then U-turns...

The groom take his bride to the fathers house....Christ returns with His bride to heaven.
The marriage feast occurs....the marriage supper of the Lamb.

The pre-trib U-turn actually follows a pattern.

This is true up to point, because the betrothal is actually at the last supper. If you follow the Jewish wedding custom for the betrothal, it mirrors the last supper vividly.
Conversely, When Jesus paid the price for sin it was for the whole world.
You may be correct that it was a type of a payment. But that payment that he made on the cross was for the whole world and not necessarily for the bride.
The cross was worldwide salvation for any and all, because any and all are invited.
But they are not the bride. The bride of Christ is us. It's a Gentile bride and it's pictured in the book of Ruth ruth as a gentle bride, and Naomi, is the Jewish dynamic.
Of that Union.

If you look at the people that are most likely a billion or so in number, that are in heaven during the tribulation, it specifically says, they were killed in the great tribulation and that they had to wash their dirty robes. Dirty robes indicates sin, carnality and secularism. if a person is maintaining their walk, and is sold out to Jesus. They have a white robe, white and clean.
Those dirty robe believers are the foolish virgins left behind.

 

[IndianaRob]

Not so.
The betrothal is the bride and groom agreemant, for a future wedding.
The last supper mirrors that betrothal vividly.
In heaven, at the white horses, it is announced that the bride has become the wife sometime earlier in heaven.

The new man exists. By Paul's own law, that fruit is only legitimate inside the marriage. So either the believer is already married to Christ, or Jesus committed adultery. There's no third option.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Except it is not until the NJ descends out of heaven from God does the bride then begin living with the groom.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



When is a bride typically adorned for her husband? When this is initially true---for the marriage of the Groom is come, and his wife hath made herself ready?

Or much later, such as a thousand years later? Since Premils, such as yourself, typically take Revelation 21:2 to be meaning a thousand years plus a little season, plus a GWTJ, post that of when Revelation 19:7 is meaning.

We then end up with this scenario.

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. But His wife is not adorned for Him until over a thousand years later.

Since you appear to be an expert on weddings, does that fit how a typical wedding goes down? for the marriage of the Groom is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. But it is much later when the wife adorns herself for her husband, that she does not do that when the marriage is come, and that the wife has made herself ready.

The reason I also brought up John 14:2-3 is simple. Look what the text says-- I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

And that the ones He is talking to here would not be anyone that is raptured when He comes. They would all be long dead before that event occurs. Therefore, the ones He is talking to at the time would be the dead in Christ that rise first. But if they are already with Him, how do we make sense of the text that it is not until He comes again, that He then receives them unto Himself; that where He is, there they may be also?

Thus why I'm open minded that soul sleep could be Biblical though it currently is not my position. Plus, it seems obvious that the place He went to prepare is the NJ that comes down from God out of heaven(Revelation 21:2)

But let's not be logical about anything. Right? It's no fun when one is being logical about something since it tends to throw a monkey wrench into how we have been interpreting some of these things the entire time.

Nope
You have to ASSUME the pretrib rapture verses are wrong first.
Then wrongly conclude the mansions in heaven are only prepared for the new Jerusalem.
All dead believers are ALREADY with him.
Their spirits are in heaven.
ALL DEAD BELIEVERS are in heaven now, with Jesus.including the apostles.
All of them had bodies.
Their bodies are in the ground.
The graves open up at the rapture.
The dead in Christ rise at the rapture.
Pretrib as Jesus taught.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The new man exists. By Paul's own law, that fruit is only legitimate inside the marriage. So either the believer is already married to Christ, or Jesus committed adultery. There's no third option.

You need to study the wife / bride dynamic.

He left us as the betrothed.
We attend the marriage and it is consummated in heaven.

The bride is not the wife BEFORE the groom fetches her.
You are saying there is no bride / betrothal because you interpret is as so.

The rapture is the fetching of the BRIDE, NOT THE WIFE.
We see at the white horses IN HEAVEN, the bride has become the WIFE. During the tribulation.
No way is your model possible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Except it is not until the NJ descends out of heaven from God does the bride then begin living with the groom.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



When is a bride typically adorned for her husband? When this is initially true---for the marriage of the Groom is come, and his wife hath made herself ready?

Or much later, such as a thousand years later? Since Premils, such as yourself, typically take Revelation 21:2 to be meaning a thousand years plus a little season, plus a GWTJ, post that of when Revelation 19:7 is meaning.

We then end up with this scenario.

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. But His wife is not adorned for Him until over a thousand years later.

Since you appear to be an expert on weddings, does that fit how a typical wedding goes down? for the marriage of the Groom is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. But it is much later when the wife adorns herself for her husband, that she does not do that when the marriage is come, and that the wife has made herself ready.

The reason I also brought up John 14:2-3 is simple. Look what the text says-- I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

And that the ones He is talking to here would not be anyone that is raptured when He comes. They would all be long dead before that event occurs. Therefore, the ones He is talking to at the time would be the dead in Christ that rise first. But if they are already with Him, how do we make sense of the text that it is not until He comes again, that He then receives them unto Himself; that where He is, there they may be also?

Thus why I'm open minded that soul sleep could be Biblical though it currently is not my position. Plus, it seems obvious that the place He went to prepare is the NJ that comes down from God out of heaven(Revelation 21:2)

But let's not be logical about anything. Right? It's no fun when one is being logical about something since it tends to throw a monkey wrench into how we have been interpreting some of these things the entire time.

" as a bride"
Jesus is not betrothed to a building.
A car is "as shiny as a new penny"

Does that translate into a giant penny with wheels?

 

[IndianaRob]

You need to study the wife / bride dynamic.

He left us as the betrothed.
We attend the marriage and it is consummated in heaven.

The bride is not the wife BEFORE the groom fetches her.
You are saying there is no bride / betrothal because you interpret is as so.

The rapture is the fetching of the BRIDE, NOT THE WIFE.
We see at the white horses IN HEAVEN, the bride has become the WIFE. During the tribulation.
No way is your model possible.

Is there a new man in you? Are you born again? Are you one flesh with Christ?

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

This isn’t rocket science, it’s very easy to understand.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus didn't leave on a white horse....symbolic or literal.

So? He left alone but returns with many. He never said he would return exactly in all details as he left. He bodily ascended and he will bvodily descend, that's all.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus said He will come back and take us there.

He did not say that. Go back and read it.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't rely on Commentaries. I can read and reason things for myself. And that I can see who Jesus is addressing at the time and what is required in order for them to be where he is. That he has to come again first. We cannot remove that from the text nor ignore that Jesus said that. It is clearly a condition that has to be met before He receives them to Himself, etc, that He has to come again first. Which then raises the question, did He already come again or is He yet to come again? If the latter, the ones He was speaking to at the time, His disciples, can't already be where He is if He hasn't even come again yet. But you want it to be only about those that would be alive when Christ returns, thus flat out ignore who He was addressing at the time. As if they are not relevant here.

You seem to be the only person with your "opinion". That is a red flag. But, thank you for your time with this issue.

 

[CrowCross]

So? He left alone but returns with many. He never said he would return exactly in all details as he left. He bodily ascended and he will bvodily descend, that's all.

Do we need to talk about the white horse again? I've never really seen a good argument that explains it away.

 

[CrowCross]

Those dirty robe believers are the foolish virgins left behind.

Do you think those "foolish virgins" are saved prior to the rapture?

 

[CrowCross]

He did not say that. Go back and read it.

I did. You're wrong.

 

[ewq1938]

I did. You're wrong.

I'm not wrong. He speaks of going to heaven and mansions, then he says he will return and we will be with him. After returning he is on Earth, and that's where we will be with him. The mansions/heaven is for those who die before trhe return of Christ, then no one goes to heaven anymore.

 

[ewq1938]

Do we need to talk about the white horse again?

Did Jesus return to heaven with an army?