WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?

[Lambano]

The logic seems very straight-forward, and I don't see why there should be any controversy about it.

Most controversy from the Christian standpoint (who cares if someone would prefer to be Jewish again?) comes from the "Preservation of the Saints" (which put the P on the TULIP), or "OSAS" for non-Calvinists. CAN a born-again Christian abandon Christ?

In the Calvinist Ordo Salutis, when God brings the Elect Christian to belief, He regenerates their spirit (what they think Jesus meant by being "born again") such that it can overcome the resistance of Total Depravity in order to believe. The regenerated spirit will not and indeed cannot permanently apostatize. Arminians who believe in OSAS believe that one can come to faith in Christ before Regeneration (either through free will or via what Wesley called "Prevenient Grace"). Regeneration/being "born from above" comes AFTER belief in the Arminian Ordo Salutis. Jacob Arminius himself would not commit either way; he said it was an issue to be looked into. Arminians who do believe in apostacy say that the warnings in Hebrews are meaningless unless one CAN leave. Faith is the door in; abandoning faith (not sin per se) is the door out. (Source: Grace, Faith, and Free Will by Robert Picirilli.)

The author of Hebrews assumes that one can leave and warns repeatedly against it.

 

[GodsGrace]

The text doesn't say that explicitly (though it may well be that the author assumes this). But if your reading is correct (and most commentaries I've read agree with you), then the "there is no more sacrifice for sins" follows from the author's logic: The New Covenant of Christ is superior to the Old Mosaic Covenant (v7:22; all of chapter 8) and has rendered the Old Covenant obsolete (v8:13). If one abandons the New Covenant for the Old, the Levitical sacrifices are no longer in effect, so "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" (v10:26), Q.E.D. The logic seems very straight-forward, and I don't see why there should be any controversy about it. (Unless one is a Dispensationalist who believes the Mosaic Covenant and its blood sacrifices are still in effect for the Jewish people.)

If I've understood you correctly, we agree.

Some use these verses to show that God will not accept a person that RETURNS to Him after having committed apostacy.
This is not true.
God will accept any person at any time.
There is more joy in heaven over one repentent sinner...

The Prodigal Son....
He is alive AGAIN....

Great explanation!
Will have to remember it.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Lambano
They use Hebrews 6 to invalidate conditinal eternal security.
They believe that by invalidating CES....
it would necessarily mean that OSAS is correct and no one can ever leave God since it would be
impossible to return to Him.

As you've shown...
Hebrews 6 CAN be used to show that falling away is possible....

but it CANNOT be used to support the idea that God will not accept back a person that had left.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First thing we must remember, is the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin.

second thing we must remember is only one sacrifice could ever take away sin. (the cross)

so one having rejected the cross. in effect has taken away any possible sacrifice for sin that could have applied to them..

They were in a dead state, they remain in a dead state, And unless they repent, they will be in an eternal dead state

 

[Lambano]

@Lambano
They use Hebrews 6 to invalidate conditinal eternal security.
They believe that by invalidating CES....
it would necessarily mean that OSAS is correct and no one can ever leave God since it would be
impossible to return to Him.

As you've shown...
Hebrews 6 CAN be used to show that falling away is possible....

but it CANNOT be used to support the idea that God will not accept back a person that had left.

The Picirilli book I referenced had a whole chapter on Hebrews 6:4-6:

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

"Impossible to renew them again to repentance"?

It seems to be saying that there is a point at which an apostate violently rejects and ridicules and shames Christ and will not repent. Is it also saying they cannot repent?

I suppose if there were to be a comforting side of that rather ominous scripture, it would be that if someone who has left Christ does repent, then logically, they haven't reached that point of no return.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Picirilli book I referenced had a whole chapter on Hebrews 6:4-6:

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

"Impossible to renew them again to repentance"?

It seems to be saying that there is a point at which an apostate violently rejects and ridicules and shames Christ and will not repent. Is it also saying they cannot repent?

I suppose if there were to be a comforting side of that rather ominous scripture, it would be that if someone who has left Christ does repent, then logically, they haven't reached that point of no return.

BUT there is no point of no return !

In your post no. 860 you PERFECTLY explained that some Judaizers were returning to The Law.
They were abandoning Christ having full well understood the concept of His sacrifice for sins.
Thus they were treading on His blood.

It is not easy for someone that has known Christianity and then leaves it. to come back to it,
although it is possible and God is waiting with open arms.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a very exact and special case.
it seemed that the book you read made this clear and you correctly stated what was happening in Hebr 6.

Here is your post no. 860 so no one has to go back to read it...it is perfectly stated:


The text doesn't say that explicitly (though it may well be that the author assumes this). But if your reading is correct (and most commentaries I've read agree with you), then the "there is no more sacrifice for sins" follows from the author's logic: The New Covenant of Christ is superior to the Old Mosaic Covenant (v7:22; all of chapter 8) and has rendered the Old Covenant obsolete (v8:13). If one abandons the New Covenant for the Old, the Levitical sacrifices are no longer in effect, so "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" (v10:26), Q.E.D. The logic seems very straight-forward, and I don't see why there should be any controversy about it. (Unless one is a Dispensationalist who believes the Mosaic Covenant and its blood sacrifices are still in effect for the Jewish people.)


(my highlight)

IOW,,, they had come to know about the one true sacrifice that would suffice for all sins for all time.
They accepted it.
Now they wanted to go back to sacrificing an animal every years.
Since that was superseded by Jesus' sacrifice, as taught in Hebrews,
they, in effect, no longer had ANY method of sacrifice to save them since they denied the one true sacrifice and were returning but to shadow of the true one.

 

[GodsGrace]

First thing we must remember, is the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin.

second thing we must remember is only one sacrifice could ever take away sin. (the cross)

so one having rejected the cross. in effect has taken away any possible sacrifice for sin that could have applied to them..

They were in a dead state, they remain in a dead state, And unless they repent, they will be in an eternal dead state

Hey EG
Just saw the above.
But if I reply, we're going to derail this thread.
Leaving aside your last sentence...
we can all agree that, yes, if the cross is denied,,,
we remain in our sins.


1 Corinthians 15:17 NLT
17And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.


Faith in the resurrection is needed for sins to be forgiven.


John 3:24 NLT
24That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be,e you will die in your sins.”

 

[Taken]

WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?​

Heb 10:
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,…

If…
the Condition.

We…
Anyone who has received Gods Truth (knowledge).

Received…
Been Given.

Gods Knowledge of “His” Truth…
God IS He, Almighty, Creator and Maker of all things.

Sin…
Reject Belief IN and OF God.

We …
He who Received True Knowledge…

Willfully …
“Freely Choose”

Sin…
Reject Belief IN of OF Gods Truth…

Gods Truth…
HE IS the Lord God Almighty, Creator and Maker of all things.

The point is …
Every human “IS” without his choosing, Naturally Born IN Sin…
(without Knowledge or Belief IN / OF God)…

Once the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of GOD is Given and Received unto a man…
AND
The man (during his NATURAL bodily Life time,
AND
Up to the Moment of his Natural Bodily Death)…

….Willfully Chooses” to IGNORE, DECLINE, REJECT;
Gods Knowledge…
Gods Truth…

NOTHING…
Not Sacrificed Animals,
Not Animal Blood,
Not Helping others,
Not Working Providing for his Family,
Not Seated in a position of Authority,
Not Having Gained Wealth,
Not Giving to Charities,
Not Joining, Regularly Attending Church,
ETC.

WILL EVER BE … the ORDER, WAY, PATH, MEANS, CONSIDERATION…
TO BE A CANDIDATE…

TO RECEIVE… the Lord God Almighty’s…
Pardon / Forgiveness…
Soul Restoration…
Spirit Re-Birth…
Body Glorification…
See God “as He IS”; SPIRIT
Eternal Life With God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?​

Heb 10:
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,…

If…
the Condition.

We…
Anyone who has received Gods Truth (knowledge).

Received…
Been Given.

Gods Knowledge of “His” Truth…
God IS He, Almighty, Creator and Maker of all things.

Sin…
Reject Belief IN and OF God.

We …
He who Received True Knowledge…

Willfully …
“Freely Choose”

Sin…
Reject Belief IN of OF Gods Truth…

Gods Truth…
HE IS the Lord God Almighty, Creator and Maker of all things.

The point is …
Every human “IS” without his choosing, Naturally Born IN Sin…
(without Knowledge or Belief IN / OF God)…

Once the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of GOD is Given and Received unto a man…
AND
The man (during his NATURAL bodily Life time,
AND
Up to the Moment of his Natural Bodily Death)…

….Willfully Chooses” to IGNORE, DECLINE, REJECT;
Gods Knowledge…
Gods Truth…

NOTHING…
Not Sacrificed Animals,
Not Animal Blood,
Not Helping others,
Not Working Providing for his Family,
Not Seated in a position of Authority,
Not Having Gained Wealth,
Not Giving to Charities,
Not Joining, Regularly Attending Church,
ETC.

WILL EVER BE … the ORDER, WAY, PATH, MEANS, CONSIDERATION…
TO BE A CANDIDATE…

TO RECEIVE… the Lord God Almighty’s…
Pardon / Forgiveness…
Soul Restoration…
Spirit Re-Birth…
Body Glorification…
See God “as He IS”; SPIRIT
Eternal Life With God.

Glory to God,
Taken

amen

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe remains in a condemned state

he who willfully, especially after they have heard the knowledge of truth, rejects the good grace of Christ. willfully remains in a condemned state

 

[amigo de christo]

@Lambano
They use Hebrews 6 to invalidate conditinal eternal security.
They believe that by invalidating CES....
it would necessarily mean that OSAS is correct and no one can ever leave God since it would be
impossible to return to Him.

As you've shown...
Hebrews 6 CAN be used to show that falling away is possible....

but it CANNOT be used to support the idea that God will not accept back a person that had left.

and what is the largest example of this falling away .
Its a lovspell and all incluisive ecueincal intefaith intrreligous lovespel .
OH i have seen and by grace have i seen even more and more of christendom
departing from the one true gospel of our FAITH and right into
a certain second death trap of interfaith .
But unknown to them is that alll who are co helpers too and supporters of this ONE TRUE GOSPEL DENYING
pit of dung , Have called GOD a liar . As now BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST has been removed .
GUESS what my dear lady .
DID you know that a man or a woman can claim TO BELIEVE IN JESUS
and yet Be walking ONLY IN UNBELEIEF .
HOW SO .
Well introduce the interreligoius dilaogue that clearly
states A FAT LIE of TOTAL UNBELEIF , as it has sold to the false relgions and more and more and more of christendom
now buys it , THAT ALL them false relgions from the b udda to the allah of the muslim , from the hindu
and any other religoin , That they all serve the same one GOD as the christain do .
THUS any who actually believes that hunk of anti christ doctrine, DONT REALLY BELIEVE
in the DIRE NECESSITY TO HAVE HAD TO BELIEVED ON JESUS . cant be both BELEIF and UNBELIEF .
EITIHER WE TRULY from the heart and within the chambers of our innermost being
BELIEVE as DO A CHILD in the DIRE NECESSITY TO HAVE To BELIEVE ON JESUS
or we LIE to our own selves . I keep seeing from the lips of men and women IN WOOL
the LIE that ALL religoins be serving the same GOD in d iffernt diverse ways
and that we must now all come sit at the table of peace .
YEAH , well any t able that omits the DIRE NECESSITY to BELIEVE ON JESUS for a lie I KNOW CANNOT save .
That table AINT SEATED UNDER CHRIST , but under ANTI CHRIST . And that , BE A FACT .

 

[Lambano]

BUT there is no point of no return !

What is your understanding of Hebrews 6:4-6? How do you read it? What's the author trying to say?

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[amigo de christo]

amen

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe remains in a condemned state

he who willfully, especially after they have heard the knowledge of truth, rejects the good grace of Christ. willfully remains in a condemned state

Let us all examine what eternally greatful has left for us to read . Oh this is very true indeed .
And now a word to test whether or not we truly DO beleive .
OR have we been trying to mix BELIEF with UNBELEIF .
FOR IF ANY and i do mean ANYONE who e ven cliams to BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
puts their hand to the plow of interrelgiious diagloue of ecumeincal inclusivity , OH THEY DONT REALLY BELIEVE AT ALL .
For you see the cliam by these dark elites and more and more in christendom as well is
THAT ALL THE WORLDS religoins are indeed serving the SAME GOD .
That indeed they are simply coming to him in differing and diverse ways .
PROVING that they NEVER TRULY BELIEVE IN THE DIRE NECESSITY FOR TO HAVE TO BELEIVE ON JESUS to b e saved .
We cant spout the gospel ONLY TO TURN around and DENY IT , as does inclusive ecumeincal interfaith
interreligous dialgoue . AND we darn sure cannot be co helpers to BOTH THE TRUTH and A LIE .
OR all we truly were was and is co helper to A LIE .
SO dont mind me as i make YET ANOTHER dire reminder to get any and to get all far
from any and all who are co helpers in any shape or fashion TO THIS interreligious ecumeincal interafaith dialgoue .

 

[Lambano]

"Impossible to restore them again to repentance"? That's an odd phrasing.

The wife of one of my (Jewish) college friends was a Baptist who converted to Judaism to marry my friend. She hasn't changed her mind since. She and her hubby took me into their home when I was a stranger. Love them dearly.

I can think of some celebrities who converted to Islam. Singer Cat Stevens / Yousef Islam, basketball players Lew Alcinder / Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Chris Jackson / Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. They haven't turned back.

I've known some who left the church for years and did come back after wandering in the weeds for years.

I don't know.

 

[amigo de christo]

"Impossible to restore them again to repentance"? That's an odd phrasing.

The wife of one of my (Jewish) college friends was a Baptist who converted to Judaism to marry my friend. She hasn't changed her mind since. She and her hubby took me into their home when I was a stranger. Love them dearly.

I can think of some celebrities who converted to Islam. Singer Cat Stevens / Yousef Islam, basketball players Lew Alcinder / Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Chris Jackson / Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. They haven't turned back.

I've known some who left the church for years and did come back after wandering in the weeds for years.

I don't know.

Let us all examine what eternally greatful has left for us to read . Oh this is very true indeed .
And now a word to test whether or not we truly DO beleive .
OR have we been trying to mix BELIEF with UNBELEIF .
FOR IF ANY and i do mean ANYONE who e ven cliams to BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
puts their hand to the plow of interrelgiious diagloue of ecumeincal inclusivity , OH THEY DONT REALLY BELIEVE AT ALL .
For you see the cliam by these dark elites and more and more in christendom as well is
THAT ALL THE WORLDS religoins are indeed serving the SAME GOD .
That indeed they are simply coming to him in differing and diverse ways .
PROVING that they NEVER TRULY BELIEVE IN THE DIRE NECESSITY FOR TO HAVE TO BELEIVE ON JESUS to b e saved .
We cant spout the gospel ONLY TO TURN around and DENY IT , as does inclusive ecumeincal interfaith
interreligous dialgoue . AND we darn sure cannot be co helpers to BOTH THE TRUTH and A LIE .
OR all we truly were was and is co helper to A LIE .
SO dont mind me as i make YET ANOTHER dire reminder to get any and to get all far
from any and all who are co helpers in any shape or fashion TO THIS interreligious ecumeincal interafaith dialgoue .

 

[GodsGrace]

amen

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe remains in a condemned state

he who willfully, especially after they have heard the knowledge of truth, rejects the good grace of Christ. willfully remains in a condemned state

Here we go:

But Hebrews 6:4-6 states VERY CLEARLY that they HAD BELIEVED but were RETURNING to thier PREVIOUS STATE OF NOT BELIEVING.

Hebrews6:4-6
4For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6and who then turn away from God.


Is a person that has been:
ENLIGHTENED
EXPERIENCED THE GOOD THINGS OF HEAVEN
SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
TASTED THE GOODNESS OF THE WORD OF GOD
TASTED THE POWER OF THE AGE TO COME


A lost person or a saved person?


And THEN TURNED AWAY FROM GOD.

They TURNED AWAY FROM GOD.

This means
THEY WERE WITH GOD
and then
THEY TURNED AWAY FROM HIM.

They were saved
and then became UNSAVED.


Very clear....
but only for those that want to know/believe the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is your understanding of Hebrews 6:4-6? How do you read it? What's the author trying to say?

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

You should know what Hebrews 6 teaches.
It's not difficult.
The persons spoken of in Hebrews 6 are particular.

It is a JEW becoming CHRISTIAN
and then
RETURNING TO JUDAISM.
It's a slap in the face to Jesus' sacrifice.

See posts 857, 860, 866

YOUR post 860 explains this perfectly from that book you read.


If I abandon God --- fall away from the faith ---- for 5 years...
and then want to come back....

WILL GOD ACCEPT ME?

That is the only question that requires a response.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here we go:

But Hebrews 6:4-6 states VERY CLEARLY that they HAD BELIEVED but were RETURNING to thier PREVIOUS STATE OF NOT BELIEVING.

Hebrews6:4-6
4For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6and who then turn away from God.

No actually it does not

It says they were enlightened, they experienced the good things of being around the church, and shared in the blessings by association.

it does not say they were born again.

Is a person that has been:
ENLIGHTENED
EXPERIENCED THE GOOD THINGS OF HEAVEN
SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
TASTED THE GOODNESS OF THE WORD OF GOD
TASTED THE POWER OF THE AGE TO COME


A lost person or a saved person?

It is a person who understood and experienced the truth by being around Gods people

But where is their true faith in?

In context. these peoples faith was in the law. In works.. If they went back to works. they would never again attempt to try this grace thing again.

And THEN TURNED AWAY FROM GOD.

They TURNED AWAY FROM GOD.

This means
THEY WERE WITH GOD
and then
THEY TURNED AWAY FROM HIM.

If you say so.

I know many a person who was in church, even acted like christians. who are living a life of sin now adays.

These people were never saved. You and others can say they were. But God says otherwise.

They were saved
and then became UNSAVED.

No.. if this is true, they were never saved.

Very clear....
but only for those that want to know/believe the truth.

like myself

so when will you understand it for what it is?

 

[amigo de christo]

You should know what Hebrews 6 teaches.
It's not difficult.
The persons spoken of in Hebrews 6 are particular.

It is a JEW becoming CHRISTIAN
and then
RETURNING TO JUDAISM.
It's a slap in the face to Jesus' sacrifice.

See posts 857, 860, 866

YOUR post 860 explains this perfectly from that book you read.


If I abandon God --- fall away from the faith ---- for 5 years...
and then want to come back....

WILL GOD ACCEPT ME?

That is the only question that requires a response.

Yes . For WHO is it that leadeth one to repentance . So i have a saying
its not too late for any to come or return . It will be too late if one came not ON HIS DAY .
So long as one is still alive in the world I would simply REBUKE and Warn them TO RETURN .
To return before it is TOO late . As well as warn and remind the church NOT to stray from the faith .
Nor to follow another jesus that sure seems to accept sins and even UNBELIEF .

 

[GodsGrace]

No actually it does not

It says they were enlightened, they experienced the good things of being around the church, and shared in the blessings by association.

it does not say they were born again.

It is a person who understood and experienced the truth by being around Gods people

But where is their true faith in?

In context. these peoples faith was in the law. In works.. If they went back to works. they would never again attempt to try this grace thing again.

If you say so.

I know many a person who was in church, even acted like christians. who are living a life of sin now adays.

These people were never saved. You and others can say they were. But God says otherwise.

No.. if this is true, they were never saved.



like myself

so when will you understand it for what it is?

Here is what I understand EG....

The words BORN AGAIN, if I remember corrctly, maybe I don't,,,
appear one time in John 3:3,5

Do they ever appear again in the NT?

So why do they have to appear in Hebrews 6:4-6?

You have not replied to my question:

Is a person that is:

ENLIGHTENED
EXPERIENCED THE GOOD THINGS OF HEAVEN
SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
TASTED THE GOODNESS OF THE WORD OF GOD
TASTED THE POWER OF THE AGE TO COME


A saved person or an unsaved person?
What high bar, in your estimation, must a person reach before they can be considered to be saved?


Who is the works salvationist here?
Me
or
You?


Here is what I believe creates a born again person:

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey God.


Apparently your standards are MUCH HIGHER than mine.
I certainly hope that God's are not as high as yours or most of us hrere on this thread and forum are doomed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes . For WHO is it that leadeth one to repentance . So i have a saying
its not too late for any to come or return . It will be too late if one came not ON HIS DAY .
So long as one is still alive in the world I would simply REBUKE and Warn them TO RETURN .
To return before it is TOO late . As well as warn and remind the church NOT to stray from the faith .
Nor to follow another jesus that sure seems to accept sins and even UNBELIEF .

Jesus said it:

John 6:35-37
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.



Luke 15:7
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.