After your born again do you think you will never sin again?
- Thread starter Armour of God
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I think continue to sin is a better translation. You can see that here. I would think it refers to a continued lifestyle of sin.
Then again maybe it means what Paul was saying....17 In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
From what I understand hope in Christ produces an on going pursuit of holiness. Do you agree?
Believers do not cleanse themselves to earn salvation or keep salvation. Are you saying the blood of Christ doesn't cleanse us from sin?
Are you saying if you sin from day to day and don't confess your new sins then you're not forgiven of that sin or sins?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Hi CC,
I'll repeat myself that reading Romans 7 in CONTEXT (not yelling, just emphasizing LOL) starting at verse one shows it was to those who "know the Law" of Moses (Jews). You have posted this verse out of context again. Again, verses 14-25 are not about Christians because Christians are not in the flesh and are free from sin. CC, read the previous chapter 6 and the one following: 8. The Old Covenant is over as shown in verses 5-6. Removing the desire to commit lawless sin is taken out of our nature when we are born again of the powerful Spirit of God. And Jesus said, "you must be born again.
Of course. But it is Jesus that does that work in us and the Author and Finisher of our faith, not we on our own. All we have to do once we've repented and been born again where Jesus has taken away the desire to commit the worst of 2 types of sin that makes us the lower level of purity called righteousness (that which type the previous Catholics knew about before the Reformation, and all Protestants do not), is to keep abiding in Him. Walk in the Spirit consistently and next, during a long process (not called sanctification, but glorification, that again Protestants believe is after we die. Oy veh! But you are in luck if you are open to the scriptures that tell the truth.) And in answer to your question, Jesus doesn't stop at making us righteous with the righteousness of Christ, not our own. His righteousness in us is not a "cover up of our sin" it is the power to not sin. CC, that is what no Protestant nor Catholic teaches. Holiness is what Jesus' goal is for all of us. "Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect. That is the higher level of purity, and takes the longest time by Jesus as the Finisher of our faith, but it is just maturing in all the fruit of the Spirit. They are important because those who do not bear fruit are taken away and burned.
I believe what you do too. But seeing as Protestants published the first Bibles I think there has to be some error in translation. I just looked up the Greek and it is comparable to "once pure keep yourself pure." I'd say that's a big boo boo in the way they published it, don't you? At least that is how I interpreted the literal "on him purifies himself as that one pure is."
I'll stick with the protestants. Catholics get a lot wrong. They get a lot right....but as I said they get a lot incorrect.
The reformation fixed a lot of their problems.
You are right, Jesus doesn't cover our sins but REMOVES our sins. All of them, past, present as well as future.
Yes.When you say "we" are naturally children of the devil, you mean up until we are born again, right?
"...dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved..." (Paul, Ephesians 2:1-5).
Absolutely. As Jesus says.... well:
"Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.' When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.' " (Matthew 18:23-26).
"Jesus... said, 'How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.' Those who heard it said, 'Then who can be saved?' But He said, 'What is impossible with man is possible with God.' ” (Luke 18:25-27)
No, what we see is... <smile> ...should, anyway, is:
- Even David, speaking/praying to God, says, "no one living is righteous before You" (Psalm 143:2).
- And Paul, quoting Isaiah, says, "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good" (Romans 3:10-12).
So here again we see the now and the not yet. We are credited with the righteousness of Jesus. This is the now. When ~ when ~ we are glorified, which will be at the day of Christ, at His return, we will then have been made new, along with the rest of creation (Revelation 21:5). Then we will be just like Jesus... fully righteous and holy, like Him. And this is an absolute certainty, but as of now still future for all of us, so... not yet. But we can, even now, as Paul says, regard ourselves and other Christians as no longer of the flesh;
"...the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him Who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." (2 Corinthians 5:14-17).
Now, Paul does go on there to say, "The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:18). But we should understand this in the same sense as what he says elsewhere, that we, like Paul, "have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer (we) who live, but Christ who lives in (us). And the life (we) now live in the flesh (we) live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved (us) and gave himself for (us)" (Galatians 2:20).
Not in the sense you mean that. See above. The Holy Spirit is at work in us, making us like Jesus. But this is not a once-and-for-all, immediate occurrence. We have been renewed, yes ~ justified in Christ ~ but are being made new ~ sanctified, which is a gradual occurrence over the rest of our lives ~ at the same time. Again, the simultaneous now and not yet.
We no longer willfully sin. We know what sin is, and we don't want to sin. This is because we have been born again, and we are now of God... God is our Father, and we want to do His will, as opposed to before, when the devil was our father, and our will was to do his will (cf. John 8:44; 10:27).
Yeah, let's look at it. You must see here, yet again, the now and the not yet:
"For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin."
We have been set free from sin, so we are not slaves to unrighteousness but to righteousness. But we are not yet completely free of it... we still ~ at least from time to time <smile> ~ sin. See above.
Without enslavement to it. See above. We are set free from our slavery to it, but we are not yet wholly inclined against it. But we will be, one great day.
Hmmmm... I understand, but I think you should see those two things as two different things. <smile> We are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, but we are not yet completely free of our propensity toward it. And as I have said, this is precisely why, over and over again, we are exhorted to "put off the old man and put on the new," to "flee from sin which so easily entangles," to "put on the whole armor of God..." You see?
<chuckles> I'm not sure how you can even say that, and frankly I'm not even sure what that means... <smile>
<chuckles>
Weeeeeeellllllllllllllllllll... <smile> Maybe the first one that was answered how you wanted it to be answered... <smile> But yes, God heard that prayer, which means not that He didn't, woodenly speaking, hear your prayers before, but that He actually acted to overcome it in you. Perhaps He had a greater purpose in using it (formerly, of course, for a time), even causing you to suffer in some sense from the guilt of it ~ so thereby disciplining you in that way ~ to draw you closer to Him... <smile>
Hmmm... again, maybe you no longer had/have the propensity toward that on particular sin... what we sometimes call a besetting sin... <smile>. It is amazing how God draws us to Him, no? I mean it's different for all of us, really, but He does it, somehow... some way... and then we are His...
Same to you!
<chuckles> I go to a Presbyterian church... I should say PCA; there are many flavors of Presbyterians, you know... <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You are confusing the New Covenant with the Old. And what truly being born again is like, with before being born again.
You're breaking my heart!!! Did Jesus die so you could freely sin your head off without condemnation? I guess you've bought into the false doctrines from the beginning of the Reformation.
I know what true freedom from sin feels like. I was deep in adultery and loved it. But I knew it was a sin and prayed that I was too weak, but You are strong. If you want this relationship broken, make him break up with me, and give him the strength to stay away from me. One week later he ended it. I was heart broken. But two weeks later I experienced truly being born again. I even felt a dark heaviness lift out of my body through my shoulders. It is REAL, not a theologian theory, or in any way fake or unexperiential, or only imputed without becoming righteous and maybe even holy. Yes, He does all the work, but IN US.
You think you still have a sin nature. I know I don't. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. That is the meaning of "reckoning" in Romans 6.
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Hmmm. Well, I say you are completely separating the New Covenant from the Old ~ and completely dismissing the Old, actually ~ which should not ~ and cannot ~ be done. You may remember what the writer of Hebrews says:
"In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:3).
The strong implication there is that it has not vanished away completely. Here again is the now and not yet.
We should not think of the New Covenant ~ Jesus Himself ~ as "replacing" the Old, but rather see it ~ the New Covenant... Jesus Himself, actually ~ as the full and complete manifestation of the Old... the final fulfillment of it.
In Galatians 3:2, Paul says, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law," but notice there that he does not say we are separated from the law altogether. Again, not a complete "replacement" or "revoking" of the law... Remember Jesus's "but I tell you" statements regarding the law in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). Using the examples of adultery and murder, He clarified just how big those commandments really are, that they are matters of the heart rather than just the outward acts. The Old Testament law still performs a very important function for us, which is to point us to the true Law, Jesus Christ Himself. The civil and ceremonial laws are gone ~ we do not have to observe the food laws, for example; all things are now blessed to us in Jesus Christ ~ but not the moral; even Jesus Himself said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment... a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37-40). So we observe the law in a different... better... way.
This is how Paul goes on to say there that "before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith" (Galatians 3:23-26). And then finally in Galatians 6:2, Paul exhorts us to "fulfill the law of Christ." The writer of Hebrews makes this clear also: "on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18-19). Jesus is that Better Hope. So yes, we are not under the Old Testament Law, but under the law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2).
This is Covenant theology, as opposed to Dispensationalism, which is... not good... <smile>
Hmmm. If you were understanding me correctly, I think you would be amazed at just how amazing God's glory and His grace is. As Paul says... notice the repeated bolded phrase here:
"In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Ephesians 1:5-14).
Ahhh, the "license to sin" fallacy. I'll just say this, very succinctly: When we are born again, God puts a new spirit in us... gives us His Holy Spirit... so that then our desire is not to sin, to do God's will, and that from then on our striving is to overcome sin. In our being born again, 1stCenturyLady, God changes our heart, and this in turn causes us to change our will, and we freely do so. God says, through Ezekiel ~ and this is what happens when we are born again:
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
There are most assuredly consequences of sin ~ God disciplines those He loves (Hebrews 12:5-7) ~ and sometimes harshly so. So there is no sanctioning of sin by anyone, much less God. But even this discipline is a grace of God:
"And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by Him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom He receives. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?"
Paul addresses this very issue in Romans 6:15-18, saying:
"Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."
Grace and peace to you.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I take it you are Protesant, and are under the illusion that "sin is sin," the cause of the false doctrines you've memorized.
What is taken away in one swell swoop are sins unto death - willful sins - lawless sins, moral sins like murder, stealing, lying, adultery and coveting.
Do you really have a problem with any of those? If so, you might be like I was for the first 30 years of going to church with an unwashed, unsanctified and unjustified sin nature. 1 Corinthians 6:11. Give yourself a test and read Galatians 5:19-21 and see if you are struggling with any of these. If not, then why can't you accept that your sin nature is now clean, and all that you have left are the type of minor sins that can take years to mature in, and those are sins NOT unto death called trespasses unintentionally committed, and come from immature fruit, not a sin nature that no longer exists, because Jesus defeated the works of Satan on the Cross. 1 John 3:8.
PS, Look at Romans 1:16-17, and in 17 you will see from faith to faith. Jesus handles the 2 types of sin from faith to faith as first the Author of our faith, and then as the Finisher of our faith.
1. Righteous
2. Holy
Jesus wants the best for us and are not just being conformed into the image of Christ with a covering, but actually on the inside. If you can relater, Great! If you can't, take the test. Jesus said, "you MUST be born again" for real! 1 John 3:7
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The "covenant" is not all 613 laws. It is the Ten Commandments engraved on stone and is the "ministry of death."
The New Covenant is the Holy Spirit and His power, called the "ministry of the Spirit," where the laws of God are written on our clean nature, made up of our new spirit and heart.
For instance, we still cannot marry our siblings.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Do you think the Holy Spirit enters our hearts where there is a sin nature? NO! He cleanses us first at the source, the sin nature. That is why John 15:3 says we are clean.
But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
<eye roll> I'm not Roman Catholic, right. <chuckles> I'm not under the illusion that any sin, no matter how small, is somehow... okay... <chuckles> God says through Paul that "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). There is no distinction between "types of sin."
Ah, so when you think of these sins ~ take lying, murder, stealing, coveting, and adultery, for example ~ as just outward acts. I'm not... under that illusion... <chuckles> Actually delusion... That's what I was speaking to in my last post. And even Jesus says otherwise... committing those sins is much, much more than just the outward act, that it is a matter of the heart. And the fact is, Christians really commit those sins every day, even possibly multiple times per day.
Christians in general have a sin problem. <smile> As do all human beings, but Christians are penitent, because of faith, which again, is God's assurance... Saved by grace through faith. If you don't have a "sin problem," and don't struggle with and strive against it, then... that's a problem. <smile>
I... didn't say it was.
No it's nooooo-oooooot... <smile> Do you know what a covenant is, 1stCenturyLady? <smile> Define 'covenant,' if you can... <smile>
Grace and peace to you. 1CL.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I know that, and God doesn't mean that. For 3,500 years there have always been 2 types of sin. Sins unto death as Paul said, the wages of sin is death, which John said, don't bother even praying for someone who commits one; and sins not unto death, 1 John 5:16:17 " If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! 1 John 3:4-5 Jesus was manifest (came to earth) to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN (Lawlessness unto death), and in Him is NO SIN. This is why abiding in Jesus is all throughout the New Testament. I no longer struggle with sin at all, thanks to the work of Jesus in me. 2 Peter 1:10-11 "10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
BUT I sure did for the first 30 years I went to church, like you apparently are if you are actually doing things from Galatians 5:19-21 that are sins unto death. That is why Jesus said, "you must be born again of the Spirit". Do you now what Jesus said to the church age of the Reformation at its start? “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. (The one thing from God they changed was the two types of sin. They changed it to "sin is sin" all the same.) Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."
Yes it issssssssssssssssssssssss :) Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
A covenant is like a will and testament that comes into effect after the person who made it dies, like Jesus died and brought in our new will and testament, the new covenant. Nothing inside a covenant changes at all as long as the covenant has not been replaced by a new covenant. And I said, to which you shook your head... "The New Covenant is the Holy Spirit and His power, called the "ministry of the Spirit," where the laws of God are written on our clean nature, made up of our new spirit and heart. "
2 Corinthians 3:
our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
Ah, so God doesn't really mean what He says. Hm. <smile>
Nope. Sin came into the world through one man ~ Adam, of course ~ and death through sin.
That's not what Paul said; he makes no distinction regarding sin. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). There is no distinction. Again, sin is not "bad things." Sinfulness is a state of the heart... the natural state of the heart, even from birth... conception, actually... of all mankind, as David said of himself in Psalm 51:5. This state we all inherit from Adam, our first father, and Eve, the mother of all the living, the state they fell into in Genesis 3. As Paul says (again) in Romans 5:12, "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." There is no distinction as you imagine there to be. No writer, anywhere in the Bible ever ~ so God never ~ makes any distinction about this or that sin leading to death as opposed to another sin. If there were a distinction to be made, do you not think we would be told? And yet we are not. Even the ten commandments... each one has many, many, many different manifestations. And let's just take murder and adultery, both of which David was guilty of. Surely you don't think David will not be with us in eternity... <smile> And Paul was a murderer, even of Christians, at one time too... <smile> So those particular sins didn't lead to death for them...
By sins leading to death, John means any sin unrepented of and the kind or nature that John has warned about throughout this letter (1 John), the absolute rejection of the true doctrine about Christ, chronic disobedience to God's commandments, persistent lack of love for fellow believers ~ all indications of a lack of saving faith ~ which will not be forgiven. Building on what I said above, both David and Paul were penitent, and obviously did not reject the true doctrine about Christ... did not chronically disobey God... did not have any lack of love for fellow believers... had saving faith. There is no distinction ~ by John, or Paul or any other author of any part of the Bible ~ between this particular sin and/or that particular sin in the way you ~ and all Roman Catholics, maybe, but that particular misunderstanding is not just relegated to Roman Catholicism ~ imagine there to be.
That's... very troubling. So nothing to confess (to the Lord, not to some priest), nothing to repent of, nothing needing to be forgiven for... yes, very troubling...
Right, the "practicing" is the problem. I mean what Peter says is true, but no one does these things in this life... supplemening faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. ...perfectly. Or even close to perfectly.
Note: Peter is here talking about the same things Paul talks about in Galatians 5... the fruit of the Spirit. We have the Spirit, but as Paul says there in Galatians 5... exhorts us... "walk by the Spirit... let us also keep in step with the Spirit... let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." We strive for this, for sure, but if anyone thinks he or she does this perfectly in this life, he or she is deluded. As John says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So yes, not perfectly, or even close... Even our best actions are tainted to some degree by sin, which means that everything we do is sinful at least to some small extent. And this is resulting from the fall of Adam and Eve. We are all made in the image of God, but because of Adam's actions in Genesis 3 cannot in this life attain to it. But one great day this will no longer be the case... God has promised it... <smile> For now, for each of us individually, we Christians are ~ have been ~ justified and have been raised to newness of life in Christ... born again of the Spirit, and thus of God. But we have not yet been fully sanctified and certainly not glorified. But we will be... and here again is the simultaneous now and not yet. God has promised it, so we can live as if it is already a full reality, because it will be. But for now... we have Jesus, and we have the Holy Spirit, Who, as Paul says, "is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of (God's) glory" (Ephesians 1:14).
The Ten Commandments is... are... not the covenant. The law is a part of the one true everlasting Covenant, made with Moses... we call it the Mosaic covenant. But it pointed to... something... <smile> ...along with the other "lesser" covenants (the covenant of life [with Adam and then remade Noah, the covenant of land and a people with Abram, and the covenant of Kingship with David). All these "lesser covenants pointed to the one true Covenant to come, Jesus Himself, Who embodied all these "lesser" covenants, the true cumulative fulfillment of all of them, which He Himself affirms with His seven great I AM statements in John's gospel. "I AM..."
- "...the bread of life" (John 6:35, 48)
- "...the light of the world" (John 8:12; 9:5)
- "...the door (gate) of the sheep" (John 10:7, 9)
- "...the good shepherd" (John 10:11, 14)
- "...the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25)
- "...the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6)
- "...I am the true vine" (John 15:1)
Well, yes, but that's not what I was getting at; this is not really an answer to my question to you... <smile> I asked you what a covenant is, 1stCenturyLady. A covenant is a binding commitment between two parties obliging them to deal faithfully with each other. And if either party fails, there is a consequence for that failure. In this case... the wages for sin is death. Remember the covenant with Abraham, where he was promised land (the greater fulfillment is the whole earth) and descendants as the stars of heaven, the grains of sand on the seashore (the greater fulfillment is an innumerable multitude of people from every tongue, tribe, and people group). God put Abraham into a deep sleep and passed between the split animals both ways, thereby saying 1) if He failed to keep the covenant perfectly, He would die, thereby fulfilling His end of the covenant, and 2.) if Abraham and/or those who came after him failed, He would fulfill Abraham's end of the covenant. And of course we know that number 2 was/is the case... Jesus had to pay the wages of sin on our behalf. Yet again, there is no distinction between this sin or that sin as you imagine.
Grace and peace to you, 1stCenturyLady.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You know sin doesn't count when there is no law, and the law came 3,500 years ago.
Yes, he did. He made the distinction when he ended the chapter with "the wages of sin is death." That is not true for sins not unto death, but only for sins unto death.
Why does John say not to pray for them? Wouldn't we want them saved if what you say is true? But what you say is not true at all. If a born again Christian turns from his faith and starts committing willful sins unto death, meaning any of the sins of the flesh in Galatians 5, there is no more repentance for them. That is why John wrote don't bother praying for these people that apostatized. That is also found in Hebrews 6 and 10.
I don't willfully sin. Why do you? You have a choice. I do what my conscience tells me to do, and I don't do what my conscience tells me ahead of time not to do whatever. Jesus has made is very easy for those born again of the Spirit. But not everyone claiming to be a Christian is one. I experienced the difference, and praise God I'm now saved.
I see you found the devil's favorite verse to twist. Everyone is born with a sin nature and will sin; they can't help it. And if anyone of those say they don't sin they make the scriptures false. But Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him is NO SIN. John even says we cannot sin. But the chapter is only about the first type of sin which is sin unto death. 1 John 1:7 is about sin not unto death, that we commit less and less as we grow in the Spirit, until as Peter says we NEVER STUMBLE.
Nope. There is nothing anywhere that says what these supposed sins unto death... or sins not unto death... are. Nothing that says ~ implicitly or explicitly ~ anywhere in God's Word that says (regarding any number of sins) "this/these sin/sins is/are unto death and this/these sin/sins is/are not unto death." All we have regarding sin leading or not leading to death is what John says there in 1 John 5:16-17. If there were specific sins that lead to death and specific sins that do not lead to death, he, John (or Paul, or Peter, or some author of some part of the Bible ~ God, really, as He is the real Author of Scripture ~ would have been explicit about that. The wages of sin is death... not certain sins, because if that were the case, God would have been explicit and specific about it somewhere in His Word, and that is not the case. There is no distinction, and the silence on that is deafening. So, all sin ~ any one transgression against God ~ is unto death... if unrepented of, if one is not in Christ and thus not forgiven in Him... for. And again, even James says that if you commit one sin ~ and He did not specify which sin, so it has to be any sin, no matter how small... it is as if you have broken His entire law: "...whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it" (James 2:10).
Where do you even see that John says not to pray for anyone for any reason? He does no such thing. He says, "There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that," and by "that," he is referring to sin that leads to death... we should never pray for sin that leads to death... or for sin to lead to death for anyone.
Right... a silly question; see above. I don't mean to say you're silly for asking it, but just that the question itself is kind of ridiculous, which is what you're implying yourself by posing it.
I don't disagree here; key word is willful. What Paul lists in Galatians 5:19-20 are broad categories of sin, having many different manifestations, so not specific except regarding the inner motivations... the spirit producing anything fitting those categories. He's saying that anyone doing those things is not led by the Holy Spirit... not born again of the Spirit... so willful, basically thinking what is wrong is right... what is bad is good... and therefore unrepentant sin.
They choose not to repent. They willfully do those things... because, 1stCenturyLady, as Paul says in Romans 1, they have exchanged the truth for a lie.... worship creation rather than the Creator... and therefore God has given them over to their own selfish passions and desires.
He said no such thing. See above. We don't know who God's elect are. We pray that all would be saved, born again of the Spirit. We know, sadly, that that will not be the case, but we pray for all. God's Word is not ambiguous in any way about that.
Hmmm... well in a certain sense, that's true. But in another, it's not... <smile>
In one sense: You don't want to sin, and you strive against it, and that's a great thing.
But in the latter sense, one, you do sin, at least sometimes... <chuckles> You may think you don't but you do, as do I (which is certainly no laughing matter. Anyway, yes, so just humanistically speaking, experientially, we willfully do everything we do, otherwise we wouldn't do it. <smile> In this sense, even Paul says of himself in Romans 7, I do the things I don't want to do, and I don't do the things I know I should do. Either way, those are willful acts...
Hmmm... well He does say, on one hand, as I'm sure you remember, "...if anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me," and doing that can be very, very hard... On the other hand, He says, again as I'm sure you remember, "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls... My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." So, yes and no... <smile>
Right. Agreed.
<eye roll>
We, because we have been born again of the Spirit, cannot sin in the same sense that Paul says, in Romans 7:17, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." And this is true of all of us Christians in this life... sin still dwells within us. So, as John says, in 1 John 1:8-10, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
<eye roll> See above.
1 John 1:7 is not about any sin of any kind, it's about walking in the light, as He is in the light, so actually not sinning and having been cleansed of ~ forgiven for ~ all sin. Because we are penitent, and in Christ Jesus. Goodness gracious.
The only thing Peter ever says about stumbling is, quoting from Isaiah, is in speaking of unbelievers, "...for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,' and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." This is about Jesus, and believing in Him. We, as Christians, do not stumble over this Rock, this Cornerstone, Who is Jesus Himself, the Rock of our salvation. That's not about sin.
And along the same lines, Jude says... and he is speaking of walking in the Spirit, that God is able to keep us from stumbling in this sense (Jude 24), which is absolutely equivalent to what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:5, that "by God’s power (we) are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," and what Paul says in Romans 8:37-39, "...we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us... (and nothing) in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"... and in Philippians 1:6 and 2:13, "...He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ... it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
But... <smile> ...James says ~ and he is writing to believers, Christians, and he surely is talking about sin and repenting of it throughout his letter ~ "we all stumble in many ways..." (James 3:2).
So, to what you say here... <chuckles>...
- Again, in one sense that's true; the Spirit is at work in us, and we are being sanctified, and in that sense we do not and will not stumble... it is God Himself, by the work of the Spirit, so by His power, Who keeps us from stumbling. Thanks be to God.
- But in another, different sense... we still sin, at least occasionally... <smile> ...so we do stumble in that way... and again, this is no laughing matter. And again, in this sense, as James says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Thanks be to God.
You know, it is enough. <smile> Should be, anyway... <smile> Grace and peace to you, 1stCenturyLady.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Do you really feel any desire to hate someone so much that you want to murder them? Do you covet something so much that you are driven to steal it? Do your eyes wander onto someone else's wife that you'd like to rape her? Really?
Of course not; I don't have any propensity toward those... atrociously sinful things. Some do, though... Even so, though, all of us Christians have what we might call besetting sins, sins that we are particularly inclined towards, that we can't seem to shed. In some sense like an addiction that we cannot cure ourselves of...
Surely, though, while all sin is repugnant, atrocious, and an affront to God... because He is perfectly holy and just, of course... not all sin is necessarily "atrocious"... to us. <smile> Sinful things can seem quite benign... so we might say, "Oh, hey, no, that's okay, that's not hurting anybody..." <smile> Still, though, sin is sin...
Even regarding your examples here... Yeah, you might read (again, I guess) what Jesus said about murder in Matthew 5:22 and adultery in Matthew 5:28... in His sermon on the Mount of Olives. Even these particular sins have far less atrocious (humanly speaking) manifestations, but yet they are still... sinful... and as such, repugnant, atrocious, and an affront to God.
The case is easily made, 1CL, that you, and I, and every Christian, still break every single one of the ten commandments multiple times every single day... if not every single hour... And even multiple commandments at once; one cannot break commandments 3 through 10 without having first broken commandment 1 and 2. Everything we do, 1CL ~ even good things ~, is/are sinful in at least some small way. Which is awful... but we have the Spirit, Who helps us in our weakness, and... for us Christians, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And in this life... <smile> that is a constant necessity. The Spirit can give us deep, lasting, and true repentance... and one day will; God will bring His good work in us to completion. At the day of Christ. He will make us... and all creation... new.
Grace and peace to you, 1stCenturyLady.
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