After your born again do you think you will never sin again?

[Jack]

plus @Jack

Basically, here are two "works" from scripture that all can do even if disabled.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

You sin. Everybody sins. Some confess and are forgiven!

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

[CrowCross]

plus @Jack

Basically, here are two "works" from scripture that all can do even if disabled.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

I think continue to sin is a better translation. You can see that here. I would think it refers to a continued lifestyle of sin.
Then again maybe it means what Paul was saying....17 In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

From what I understand hope in Christ produces an on going pursuit of holiness. Do you agree?
Believers do not cleanse themselves to earn salvation or keep salvation. Are you saying the blood of Christ doesn't cleanse us from sin?

 

[CrowCross]

You sin. Everybody sins. Some confess and are forgiven!

Are you saying if you sin from day to day and don't confess your new sins then you're not forgiven of that sin or sins?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul was saying....17 In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Hi CC,

I'll repeat myself that reading Romans 7 in CONTEXT (not yelling, just emphasizing LOL) starting at verse one shows it was to those who "know the Law" of Moses (Jews). You have posted this verse out of context again. Again, verses 14-25 are not about Christians because Christians are not in the flesh and are free from sin. CC, read the previous chapter 6 and the one following: 8. The Old Covenant is over as shown in verses 5-6. Removing the desire to commit lawless sin is taken out of our nature when we are born again of the powerful Spirit of God. And Jesus said, "you must be born again.

From what I understand hope in Christ produces an on going pursuit of holiness. Do you agree?

Of course. But it is Jesus that does that work in us and the Author and Finisher of our faith, not we on our own. All we have to do once we've repented and been born again where Jesus has taken away the desire to commit the worst of 2 types of sin that makes us the lower level of purity called righteousness (that which type the previous Catholics knew about before the Reformation, and all Protestants do not), is to keep abiding in Him. Walk in the Spirit consistently and next, during a long process (not called sanctification, but glorification, that again Protestants believe is after we die. Oy veh! But you are in luck if you are open to the scriptures that tell the truth.) And in answer to your question, Jesus doesn't stop at making us righteous with the righteousness of Christ, not our own. His righteousness in us is not a "cover up of our sin" it is the power to not sin. CC, that is what no Protestant nor Catholic teaches. Holiness is what Jesus' goal is for all of us. "Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect. That is the higher level of purity, and takes the longest time by Jesus as the Finisher of our faith, but it is just maturing in all the fruit of the Spirit. They are important because those who do not bear fruit are taken away and burned.

Believers do not cleanse themselves to earn salvation or keep salvation. Are you saying the blood of Christ doesn't cleanse us from sin?

I believe what you do too. But seeing as Protestants published the first Bibles I think there has to be some error in translation. I just looked up the Greek and it is comparable to "once pure keep yourself pure." I'd say that's a big boo boo in the way they published it, don't you? At least that is how I interpreted the literal "on him purifies himself as that one pure is."

 

[CrowCross]

Hi CC,

I'll repeat myself that reading Romans 7 in CONTEXT (not yelling, just emphasizing LOL) starting at verse one shows it was to those who "know the Law" of Moses (Jews). You have posted this verse out of context again. Again, verses 14-25 are not about Christians because Christians are not in the flesh and are free from sin. CC, read the previous chapter 6 and the one following: 8. The Old Covenant is over as shown in verses 5-6. Removing the desire to commit lawless sin is taken out of our nature when we are born again of the powerful Spirit of God. And Jesus said, "you must be born again.


Of course. But it is Jesus that does that work in us and the Author and Finisher of our faith, not we on our own. All we have to do once we've repented and been born again where Jesus has taken away the desire to commit the worst of 2 types of sin that makes us the lower level of purity called righteousness (that which type the previous Catholics knew about before the Reformation, and all Protestants do not), is to keep abiding in Him. Walk in the Spirit consistently and next, during a long process (not called sanctification, but glorification, that again Protestants believe is after we die. Oy veh! But you are in luck if you are open to the scriptures that tell the truth.) And in answer to your question, Jesus doesn't stop at making us righteous with the righteousness of Christ, not our own. His righteousness in us is not a "cover up of our sin" it is the power to not sin. CC, that is what no Protestant nor Catholic teaches. Holiness is what Jesus' goal is for all of us. "Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect. That is the higher level of purity, and takes the longest time by Jesus as the Finisher of our faith, but it is just maturing in all the fruit of the Spirit. They are important because those who do not bear fruit are taken away and burned.

I believe what you do too. But seeing as Protestants published the first Bibles I think there has to be some error in translation. I just looked up the Greek and it is comparable to "once pure keep yourself pure." I'd say that's a big boo boo in the way they published it, don't you? At least that is how I interpreted the literal "on him purifies himself as that one pure is."

I'll stick with the protestants. Catholics get a lot wrong. They get a lot right....but as I said they get a lot incorrect.
The reformation fixed a lot of their problems.

You are right, Jesus doesn't cover our sins but REMOVES our sins. All of them, past, present as well as future.

 

[PinSeeker]

When you say "we" are naturally children of the devil, you mean up until we are born again, right?

Yes.

"...dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience⁠ ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace we have been saved..." (Paul, Ephesians 2:1-5).​

...the POWER OF GOD.

Absolutely. As Jesus says.... well:

"Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.' When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.' " (Matthew 18:23-26).​

​

"Jesus... said, 'How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.' Those who heard it said, 'Then who can be saved?' But He said, 'What is impossible with man is possible with God.' ” (Luke 18:25-27)​

And we see it is about His all powerful creative ability that does not leave sin in our new nature because we are made righteous.

No, what we see is... <smile> ...should, anyway, is:

• Even David, speaking/praying to God, says, "no one living is righteous before You" (Psalm 143:2).
• And Paul, quoting Isaiah, says, "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good" (Romans 3:10-12).

So what we see is that despite our sinful nature, God credits this righteousness ~ the righteousness of Christ ~ to us... just as He did Abraham so long ago, because He, in His grace and mercy, He has given us faith ~ His "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction (by the Spirit) of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)... this is what happens in us when we are born again of the Spirit ~ and we therefore believe God. And it is counted to us as righteousness. We see this in that "(Abraham) believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6), and this is referred to directly by Paul in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6, and also by James in James 2:23. When we are born again, we are placed in Christ and are credited with His righteousness, despite the fact that we have no righteousness of our own.

So here again we see the now and the not yet. We are credited with the righteousness of Jesus. This is the now. When ~ when ~ we are glorified, which will be at the day of Christ, at His return, we will then have been made new, along with the rest of creation (Revelation 21:5). Then we will be just like Jesus... fully righteous and holy, like Him. And this is an absolute certainty, but as of now still future for all of us, so... not yet. But we can, even now, as Paul says, regard ourselves and other Christians as no longer of the flesh;

"...the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him Who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." (2 Corinthians 5:14-17).​

Now, Paul does go on there to say, "The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:18). But we should understand this in the same sense as what he says elsewhere, that we, like Paul, "have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer (we) who live, but Christ who lives in (us). And the life (we) now live in the flesh (we) live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved (us) and gave himself for (us)" (Galatians 2:20).

...recreates our human nature first.

Not in the sense you mean that. See above. The Holy Spirit is at work in us, making us like Jesus. But this is not a once-and-for-all, immediate occurrence. We have been renewed, yes ~ justified in Christ ~ but are being made new ~ sanctified, which is a gradual occurrence over the rest of our lives ~ at the same time. Again, the simultaneous now and not yet.

...willful sins...

We no longer willfully sin. We know what sin is, and we don't want to sin. This is because we have been born again, and we are now of God... God is our Father, and we want to do His will, as opposed to before, when the devil was our father, and our will was to do his will (cf. John 8:44; 10:27).

The old sin nature is called the old man by Paul in Romans 6:5-7 that says we are free from sin.

Yeah, let's look at it. You must see here, yet again, the now and the not yet:

"For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin."​

We have been set free from sin, so we are not slaves to unrighteousness but to righteousness. But we are not yet completely free of it... we still ~ at least from time to time <smile> ~ sin. See above.

The new man is the new nature without the propensity to sin.

Without enslavement to it. See above. We are set free from our slavery to it, but we are not yet wholly inclined against it. But we will be, one great day.

What I agree with is "albeit not willingly" which contradicts the "propensity to sin" in my way of thinking.

Hmmmm... I understand, but I think you should see those two things as two different things. <smile> We are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, but we are not yet completely free of our propensity toward it. And as I have said, this is precisely why, over and over again, we are exhorted to "put off the old man and put on the new," to "flee from sin which so easily entangles," to "put on the whole armor of God..." You see?

...you are taught things that are unnatural for a true Christian to desire.

<chuckles> I'm not sure how you can even say that, and frankly I'm not even sure what that means... <smile>

Maybe I can't relate because I don't have screaming testosterone.

<chuckles>

Do you know that was the first prayer in my entire life that God answered? Yep!

Weeeeeeellllllllllllllllllll... <smile> Maybe the first one that was answered how you wanted it to be answered... <smile> But yes, God heard that prayer, which means not that He didn't, woodenly speaking, hear your prayers before, but that He actually acted to overcome it in you. Perhaps He had a greater purpose in using it (formerly, of course, for a time), even causing you to suffer in some sense from the guilt of it ~ so thereby disciplining you in that way ~ to draw you closer to Him... <smile>

The one I didn't want Him to answer! Two weeks later was the night I was finally born again, and that is an amazing story in itself! But the result was no more desire to commit adultery. It was no longer in my nature.

Hmmm... again, maybe you no longer had/have the propensity toward that on particular sin... what we sometimes call a besetting sin... <smile>. It is amazing how God draws us to Him, no? I mean it's different for all of us, really, but He does it, somehow... some way... and then we are His...

Nice conversing with you brother.

Same to you!

I see you are in Nashville. Where do you go to church. 50 some years ago I went to what was then Belmont Church of Christ (the black sheep of the CoC denomination, because they were no longer cessationists.)

<chuckles> I go to a Presbyterian church... I should say PCA; there are many flavors of Presbyterians, you know... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, what we see is... <smile> ...should, anyway, is:

• Even David, speaking/praying to God, says, "no one living is righteous before You" (Psalm 143:2).
• And Paul, quoting Isaiah, says, "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good" (Romans 3:10-12).

So what we see is that despite our sinful nature, God credits this righteousness ~ the righteousness of Christ ~ to us... just as He did Abraham so long ago, because He, in His grace and mercy, He has given us faith ~ His "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction (by the Spirit) of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)... this is what happens in us when we are born again of the Spirit ~ and we therefore believe God. And it is counted to us as righteousness. We see this in that "(Abraham) believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6), and this is referred to directly by Paul in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6, and also by James in James 2:23. When we are born again, we are placed in Christ and are credited with His righteousness, despite the fact that we have no righteousness of our own.

So here again we see the now and the not yet. We are credited with the righteousness of Jesus. This is the now. When ~ when ~ we are glorified, which will be at the day of Christ, at His return, we will then have been made new, along with the rest of creation (Revelation 21:5). Then we will be just like Jesus... fully righteous and holy, like Him. And this is an absolute certainty, but as of now still future for all of us, so... not yet. But we can, even now, as Paul says, regard ourselves and other Christians as no longer of the flesh;

"...the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him Who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." (2 Corinthians 5:14-17).
Now, Paul does go on there to say, "The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:18). But we should understand this in the same sense as what he says elsewhere, that we, like Paul, "have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer (we) who live, but Christ who lives in (us). And the life (we) now live in the flesh (we) live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved (us) and gave himself for (us)" (Galatians 2:20).

You are confusing the New Covenant with the Old. And what truly being born again is like, with before being born again.

You're breaking my heart!!! Did Jesus die so you could freely sin your head off without condemnation? I guess you've bought into the false doctrines from the beginning of the Reformation.

I know what true freedom from sin feels like. I was deep in adultery and loved it. But I knew it was a sin and prayed that I was too weak, but You are strong. If you want this relationship broken, make him break up with me, and give him the strength to stay away from me. One week later he ended it. I was heart broken. But two weeks later I experienced truly being born again. I even felt a dark heaviness lift out of my body through my shoulders. It is REAL, not a theologian theory, or in any way fake or unexperiential, or only imputed without becoming righteous and maybe even holy. Yes, He does all the work, but IN US.

You think you still have a sin nature. I know I don't. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. That is the meaning of "reckoning" in Romans 6.