Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[William Barton]

So you have a rapture of the Church in Revelation 11:12-13, then you have another rapture of those left behind in Rev 14:14, then a 4th coming of Jesus in Rev 19 for Israel? Really?

Where in John 14:2-3, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 does it show a seven year tribulation after the rapture?

WPM queried>
<rapture...rapture>

IMO.
o The rapture has two phases:
Phase 1: Remove deceased believers from their graves.
Phase 2: Remove living believers from the battlefield (Middle East).
See 1Thessalonians 4:16.

o The two witnesses are perhaps raised in phase 1.

o The tribulation in Israel begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th seven. See Daniel 9:24-27.

 

[WPM]

WPM queried>
<rapture...rapture>

IMO.
o The rapture has two phases:
Phase 1: Remove deceased believers from their graves.
Phase 2: Remove living believers from the battlefield (Middle East).
See 1Thessalonians 4:16.

o The two witnesses are perhaps raised in phase 1.

o The tribulation in Israel begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th seven. See Daniel 9:24-27.

What do you mean "perhaps"? Where is the battlefield in Middle East mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16? This is classic Pretrib. They make it up as they go. Where is a seven year tribulation or any type of tribulation mention after the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4? Please quote?

 

[William Barton]

Pre-trib theory is of the DEVIL.

God even showed back in Ezekiel 13 that He is against it!

Davy noted:
< Pretrib is of the Devil>

The great tribulation begins (Revelation 16:1) when Anti Christ (a.k.a the beast) takes his seat in the temple (2Thessalonians 2:24).

At that time Jesus descends to a cloud and removes believers (Revelation 14:14-16).

This occurs at the midpoint of the tribultion (Revelation 14:14-26).

 

[William Barton]

WPM asked:
<What do you mean "perhaps.">

o. Two witnesses are caught up in Revelation 11:12 with a LOUD VOICE at the middle of the seven years.

o. Believers in 1Thessalonians :16-17 are said to be caught up with the VOICE of the archangel.

 

[WPM]

WPM asked:
<What do you mean "perhaps.">

o. Two witnesses are caught up in Revelation 11:12 with a LOUD VOICE at the middle of the seven years.

o. Believers in 1Thessalonians :16-17 are said to be caught up with the VOICE of the archangel.

So, where is the rapture of the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11? The word "Church" is not mentioned in Revelation 11:12. You have been telling us that he two witnesses are literally and physically Enoch and Elijah.

 

[William Barton]

So, where is the rapture of the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11? The word "Church" is not mentioned in Revelation 11:12. You have been telling us that he two witnesses are literally and physically Enoch and Elijah.

WPM asked:
<rapture in Revelation 11>
o. It involves putting the information together.
o. Revelation 11:15 "seventh trumpet" is last of seven.
o. 1Corinthians 15:12 says "last" trumpet.
o. Dead in Christ rise at this "last" trump.
o. The dead in Christ rise at the rapture (1Thessalonians 4:16).
o. "In Christ" = church.
o. Two witnesses are not identified, I suspect Enoch and Elijah.
o. Lots of disagreement on these matters.

 

[WPM]

WPM asked:
<rapture in Revelation 11>
o. It involves putting the information together.
o. Revelation 11:15 "seventh trumpet" is last of seven.
o. 1Corinthians 15:12 says "last" trumpet.
o. Dead in Christ rise at this "last" trump.
o. The dead in Christ rise at the rapture (1Thessalonians 4:16).
o. "In Christ" = church.
o. Two witnesses are not identified, I suspect Enoch and Elijah.
o. Lots of disagreement on these matters.

You have the order all wrong.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell
upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This cannot be the rapture. The 7th trumpet sounds after this is completed (Rev 11:15).

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

After the 2 witnesses are caught up the trumpet sounds.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Your thesis contradicts what the context reveals and what the rest of Scripture teaches. Revelation 11:15-19 relates to the one and only climatic return of Christ at the end, not Revelation 11:11-12.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is the only one last trumpet. It sounds at Christ’s climactic singular return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” The glorification of the kingdom of God sees the simultaneous destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

 

[Davy]

The rapture (Jesus descended to a cloud taking up ("reaping") believers) is clearly shown in Revelation 11:12-13, 14:14-16.

Not Rev.11:12-13, for that is ONLY God's dead "two witnesses" being raised. The 2nd coming does not happen until the SOUNDING of the 7th angel (or 7th Trumpet)...

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

Apostle Paul also showed on that 7th Trumpet ("last trump") is when the "caught up" event by Jesus' coming will happen...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


Nor does Revelation 14:14-16 reveal what you are saying. God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked on earth on the SAME DAY and HOUR of Christ's coming and that change on the "last trump". Paul's "last trump" change for those still alive on earth will happen for every... soul alive upon the earth, not just for Christ's Church that is still alive on earth. But only those of Christ's Church still alive will be "caught up" to Lord Jesus. And Lord Jesus does that catching up ON HIS WAY coming in a cloud to the Mount of Olives with all His elect Church, and that is when His feet touch down there where He ascended from, and a great valley is formed running from east to west (Zech.14:1-5).

That happens on the FINAL 7th Vial which is the day of God's vengeance, His cup of wrath. The previous 1-6 Vials happen when the beast system and Satan are still in control over the earth and all nations. The Biblical model for God's "two witnesses" at the end is like what God did upon Egypt during the time of Moses and Aaron.

Thus the Pre-Wrath idea you follow is just another one of the many seminary doctrines of men, and not Biblical.

 

[Davy]

Davy noted:
< Pretrib is of the Devil>

The great tribulation begins (Revelation 16:1) when Anti Christ (a.k.a the beast) takes his seat in the temple (2Thessalonians 2:24).

At that time Jesus descends to a cloud and removes believers (Revelation 14:14-16).

This occurs at the midpoint of the tribultion (Revelation 14:14-26).

Those statements in 'red' above is you ADDING to Bible Scripture an idea that is NOT written.

ANY idea that Christ gathers the Church prior to the "last trump" (i.e., the 7th Trumpet) is from men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture. A mid-trib rapture theorizes to happen prior.. to the tribulation, so it is actually in the same category as the false pre-trib rapture theory from men. Both ideas are false, and not written in God's Word.

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

 

[Scott Downey]

Reply went over 10000 so had to write this way

Yes, Christ's return is after the tribulation of those days, when people are saying peace and safety, so a semblance of normalcy has come back.

And it is comparable to Noah's and Lot's experiences who were surrounded by wicked and deceived-deluded people going about their daily lives as if nothing bad was coming.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
2 Peter 2:5
and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
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Jesus tells the church the days will come when you will greatly desire to see His return, and will not see it. Christ does not come when the church expects or wants Him to. He is not late, He shows up exactly on time, when He is supposed to.
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Luke 17
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

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The ones taken, are taken away to destruction, while the people of God inherit the earth.
Exact opposite of the false, backwards 'left behind teaching'

Daniel 7, Malachi 4, and the teaching of Christ and the apostles are all in agreement
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21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.

24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
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We as the people of God inherit all things, while no place will be found for the wicked.
The wicked shall not inherit with the righteous, for evildoers shall be [b]cut off;
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Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
KJ21 Psalm 37:10 But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37

5 Commit[a] your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
Do not fret—it only causes harm.

9 For evildoers shall be [b]cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

 

[William Barton]

WPM explained:
<This cannot be the rapture. The seventh sounds after this is completed.>

IMO:
The two witnesses voluntier to give up their lives for the gospel. God honors them and other deceased believers by resurrecting them first of everyone at the seventh trump (1Thessalonians 4:16,17).

After them the living believers are taken up, and the bowl judgments begin. Bad news for those left behind.

The trumpet is the signal for the rapture to begin. They did not have radios back then, trumpets communicated the commands.

 

[WPM]

WPM explained:
<This cannot be the rapture. The seventh sounds after this is completed.>

IMO:
The two witnesses voluntier to give up their lives for the gospel. God honors them by resurrecting them first (1Thessalinians 4:16).

After this the seveth trumpet sounds the command, living believers are taken up, and the bowl judgments begin. Bad news for those left ehind.

Exactly. That is not the rapture of the Church then as you claim.

 

[William Barton]

Exactly. That is not the rapture of the Church then as you claim.

WPM suggested:
<not the rapture>

The seventh (last) trumpet signals that the trumpet judgments are at end, and the bowl judgments are at hand. Believers are therefore quickly taken away (rapture) to avoid the bowl judgments.

Think of it as a movie theater, intermission before the next show.

 

[WPM]

WPM suggested:
<not the rapture>

The seventh (last) trumpet signals that the trumpet judgments are at end, and the bowl judgments are at hand. Believers are therefore quickly taken away (rapture) to avoid the bowl judgments.

Think of it as a movie theater, intermission before the next show.

No. I showed you that the catching away is the response to the last and final trumpet of time. That is the end.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
"Last" trumpet = last of the seven trumpets, sounding right before the bowl judgments begin.

The rapture then occurs, to spare believers from the bowl judgements.

 

[WPM]

"Last" trumpet = last of the seven trumpets, sounding right before the bowl judgments begin.

These are recaps of the same game.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
The Bible indicates that Believers are caught up at the "seventh"="last" trumpet, to avoid the bowl judgments. This "rapture" includes the "two witnesses."

 

[William Barton]

These are recaps of the same game

If you have a better suggestion *from the Bible* then perhaps you will share it.

 

[William Barton]

Exactly. That is not the rapture of the Church then as you claim.

"Taken up" = rapture:

"The dead in in Christ will rise, and we will be TAKEN UP."
(1Thessalonians 4:16-17).

 

[WPM]

"Taken up" = rapture:

"The dead in in Christ will rise, and we will be TAKEN UP."
(1Thessalonians 4:16-17).

LOL. Hello! The Rapture of the two witnesses is not the rapture of the Church. You cannot even admit that. Your hermeneutics are all over the place. This is typical pretrib. You make it up as you go.