Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[William Barton]

LOL. Hello! The Rapture of the two witnesses is not the rapture of the Church. You cannot even admit that. Your hermeneutics are all over the place. This is typical pretrib. You make it up as you go.

I invite you to site your reference (two witnesses taken separately from all others).

 

[WPM]

I invite you to site your reference (two witnesses taken separately from all others).

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

Looking at Revelation 10:5-7, there is clearly a major dilemma for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

How could Revelation be chronological when we do not read of the birth of Christ until Revelation 12? The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

Cycle 1

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)

Cycle 2

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

Cycle 3

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)

Cycle 4

The Church and its onslaught from the devil and the beast’s and ultimate victory in heaven.

Cycle 5

Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)

Cycle 6

Babylon (Ch 17-19)

Cycle 7

The spiritual binding of Satan from the cross. The advance of the Gospel to the nations. The victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22:1-5).

 

[William Barton]

WPM asked:
<What do you mean "perhaps.">

o. Two witnesses are caught up in Revelation 11:12 with a LOUD VOICE at the middle of the seven years.

o. Believers in 1Thessalonians :16-17 are said to be caught up with the VOICE of the archangel.

The rapture occurs when Jesus descends from heaven, as depicted in Revelation 14:14-16. I see only one reaping, occurring after the witnesses have died.

 

[William Barton]

Exactly. That is not the rapture of the Church then as you claim.

You are assuming the rapture of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:12) involves only them, no else, and you cite no reference (because there isn't one).

 

[WPM]

You are assuming the rapture of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:12) involves only them, no else, and you cite no reference (because there isn't one).

Do you even read what other people are writing? Read back on my posts and then come back to me. The last trump ushers in the catching away not the other way around as you claim. Until you acknowledge that fact we are going nowhere.

 

[WPM]

You are assuming the rapture of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:12) involves only them, no else, and you cite no reference (because there isn't one).

You have the order all wrong.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell
upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This cannot be the rapture. The 7th trumpet sounds after this is completed (Rev 11:15).

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

After the 2 witnesses are caught up the trumpet sounds.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Your thesis contradicts what the context reveals and what the rest of Scripture teaches. Revelation 11:15-19 relates to the one and only climatic return of Christ at the end, not Revelation 11:11-12.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is the only one last trumpet. It sounds at Christ’s climactic singular return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” The glorification of the kingdom of God sees the simultaneous destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.